I have been trying to find out information on UP Troop Trains during or shortly after WW II. I don't normally model the UP, but recently bought an FEF so I need to build a train for it to pull. I have found out through photographic evidence the UP put way cars on the end of those troop trains frequently.
What I am trying to figure out is the mix of troop sleepers, kitchen cars, baggage cars, Pullman Sleepers, and other Express cars would be in the consist. I have only found one actual consist that was pulled by a Big Boy post war, and it was mostly HW Coaches and Pullman Sleepers.
Anyone have an actual circa 1944-45 UP Troop Train consist list that has troop sleepers in it? I plan on pulling it with the FEF. Thank You.
Hi, Dragoon
I have a copy of the Heimburger/Kelley book Trains To Victory which is a pretty good look at how the railroads and the War Department worked together during those years of 1941-1945.
Although I don't find any specific consists listed, and due to some of the classified nature of the movements there may not have been too much recorded information as to the details of the troop and equipment movements.
There is a general statement which pretty much says that the "typical" troop train consist included a baggage car or two, perhaps an express refrigerator car, three or more troop sleepers, two or more troop kitchen cars and six or more Pullman Tourist sleeping cars, usually a 12 section- 1 drawing room configuration. The book goes on to say that there was no specific order to the cars but generally on shorter trains the kitchen cars would be centrally located and on longer trains would be interspersed throughout the consist.
There are a few photos throughout the book showing some UP articulateds on troop movements. It seems that there was one Kitchen car for about every six troop sleepers. I would venture to say that due to War time contingencies, just about any equipment that was able to be placed into service was utilized.
I think you could get away with just about any configuration of Pullman heavyweight cars with troop sleepers and kitchen cars interspersed throughout the train.
Troop Sleeper by Edmund, on Flickr
I have a pair of the PRR converted troop sleepers made out of box cars.
Troop-Sleeper4 by Edmund, on Flickr
Do you have any of the Walthers troop sleepers and kitchen cars? I imagine they're pretty scarce these days.
Regards, Ed
Great info on the subject and the film was good too!
My Dad was in the Pacific and ended up in Japan. In late 46 he was shipped from Japan to Seattle and took a GN troop train (might have been NP) from there to Minnisota, and then the Milw to Chicago.
He talked of that troop train, and how great it was too be coming home. That said, it was very crowded, sleep was in your seat, and the steam heat was like being back in the jungles of the Phillippines. He recalled that he was able to get off and stretch his legs at a stop in Montana. He knew it was cold, but he welcomed it. Ha, he didn't realize it was well below zero until he saw the station thermometer.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
After the war, some railroads like Monon converted troop cars into passenger cars.
Check that out as well.
Rich
Alton Junction
I suspect those Pullmans was for the comfort of the Officers and high ranking NCO like First Sergeants and Battalion Sergeant Major.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
There are some draftees train pictures in the archives of the Oshkosh newspaper and it shows standard passenger cars, presumably at the C&NW depot. There was also a Soo Line depot in town. Remember that it took a while for the Pullman troop sleeper and other 50' cars to be produced.
Go here and type in railroad as search term
http://www.oshkoshmuseum.org/Virtual/search6.htm
Dave Nelson
Page 148 of John F. Strauss, Jr.'s "Northern Pacific Pictorial-Volume Four" has two troop train consists (not UP, but likely typical). One for 1943 and one for 1945 (westbound out of St. Paul).
at the front 2-3 baggage-express or express reefers (the latter surely used as baggage)
11-12 troop sleepers, half of which were the ones you're thinking of, the others 13 section sleepers, likely visually the same as 14 section. The types tended to be clumped together, as opposed to randomly distributed.
2 troop kitchens. In one train, the first is behind the first three sleepers, and the second ahead of the last. In the other one, both kitchens are together, pretty much in the middle. Keep in mind that these were kitchens, not dining cars.
AFTER all the above was one or two "regular" sleepers. The first train had a 6-3 and a 10-2-1. The second had only a 10-3.
Since the question was about UP, there's no need to go into more detail.
Putting together a UP train should be a piece of cake:
3 wood PFE express reefers (BLI)(or maybe some brass UP baggage)
2 troop kitchens (Walthers)
6 troop sleepers (Walthers)
6 13 (14) section sleepers (Walthers/Branchline)
1 or 2 assorted sleepers (NOT section only. Those 1's, 2's, and 3's above are for the OCCIFERS.)
Ed
PS: That 1943 date I mentioned caused me concern. I looked up some info in the troop sleeper/kitchen article in RPC # 5 and found the first troop sleepers were delivered in October of 1943. Since the consist is VERY detailed, I believe it to be correct, but the date wrong. Perhaps "1943" was really 1944.
There were certainly troop trains before "troop sleepers". I figure modeling those would involve a LOT of 13 (14) section sleepers and "regular" diners, maybe from Pullman. If "regular" diners were used, I expect they were converted to kitchens, as feeding all the guys in a diner wouldn't work (6 x 30 = 180 customers for a 36/48 seat diner)(well, mayyybeee....)
Also, I would consider substituting a "regular" diner for a troop kitchen in my generic consist, above.
I'm building my own 1945 troop train. It's gonna be short, with 4 troop sleepers, "some" 14 sections, a troop kitchen, and one occifer car. And one hospital car. Thinkin' on that, maybe I should add a diner.
Kupla more comments:
Troops are typically moved around as units: squad, platoon.....
Looking at the berthing of a typical troop train, it looks like it was loaded with companies. Two, in fact. And there were also typically two kitchens. A kitchen was staffed by the company cook plus volunteers. This would imply that troop trains were also made up of "units"--roughly six sleepers and a kitchen. And officer country trailing behind. So, a short train might have one unit--one company. I think.
The article I mentioned says that baggage cars were converted to troop kitchens. Makes more sense than using diners, as the kitchen in a diner would likely be too small. The conversion appears to have been very basic. I would think about all that would change externally would be the addition of smokejacks for the stoves. I DO wonder what the lettering on those cars looked like. Note that the converted kitchens would likely NOT be placed up front in the position of a regular baggage car.
There was a (Pullman) porter on each sleeper.
The sleepers and kitchens started being sold off in 1947
There's a couple of shots of ATSF troop trains in 1946 in Richmond, CA. The 6-1 ration I mentioned seems more like 8-1 in these trains. And the type-grouping I described appears to have been relaxed some. The trains are pulled by Pacifics.
AND HOLD THE PRESSES: Further research shows that, for the consists I was talking about, the 13 section sleepers were not based on 14 section, but on the ever-popular 12-1's.
"The article I mentioned says that baggage cars were converted to troop kitchens. Makes more sense than using diners, as the kitchen in a diner would likely be too small. The conversion appears to have been very basic. I would think about all that would change externally would be the addition of smokejacks for the stoves."
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I'm sure there had to be some additional mods, although I'm sure there weren't many. Cooking invariably involved water. The water was likely filled through the original side doors, but floor drains would likely have been added. Cooking was probably with the same type of Presto logs and charcoal used in typical diners of the day. This must have required additional ventilation, so I imagine Garland vents or some equivalent were added in the roofs.
Tom
ACY "The article I mentioned says that baggage cars were converted to troop kitchens. Makes more sense than using diners, as the kitchen in a diner would likely be too small. The conversion appears to have been very basic. I would think about all that would change externally would be the addition of smokejacks for the stoves."
I've seen interior pictures of baggage cars converted to troop kitchens, and from what I saw they just ran vents out either the doors or through windows. I have not seen any pictures where venting was ran through the roof. Which makes sense somewhat as the RR's would want to use those cars as normal baggage cars when the troop movement was over.
I believe that the typical US Army stoves used in WW II burned Gasoline. Same with the emersion heaters used to clean mess kits, pots, and pans. I'm retired Army and up till the Army decided to use MKT's (Kitchen trailers) all the field ranges used mogas for fuel. And according to the manufacturers plates on most of those ranges they were originally built during WW II in most cases. Now if they were using stoves built during WW I then I am not sure what they used to fuel them.
I base my response on typical US railroad industry standards. When I hired out on Amtrak 29 years & 11-1/2 months ago, I met and worked with many old time veterans. They all told of the days of Presto logs, but nobody ever suggested liquid fuels, especially a fuel as volatile as gasoline.
While I cannot say for certain, I would be shocked to learn that the railroads allowed the use of gasoline for cooking on passenger trains of any kind. Due to the inherent dangers, liquid fuels were rarely if ever used for cooking on passenger trains in this country. Until the advent of all-electric systems during the Amtrak era, solid fuels were the de facto industry standard.
If I am wrong, and it is shown that gasoline was used, then the same ventilation considerations were present.
Note the term "wood basket" (?) on the plans for this troop kitchen:
But what the arrangement was in the baggage cars, I do wonder. I just looked at photos of small WWII US Army field ranges. There's obviously "fire" underneath to make the thing work. But I see no provision for liquid fuel storage. And no ventilation stack. They surely don't LOOK to my untrained eye like they could burn wood. But then, how did they get the "gasoline" inside???
I do wonder at the possibility of burning kerosene instead. It's certainly less dangerous. Perhaps there was a compromise.
Or.
Perhaps the cars were provided with store-bought wood stoves. They were quite available at the time, and they didn't need very many. Hey, when they de-converted them, they could use the stoves elsewhere.
Tom, The field ranges I am familiar with all used gasoline and a 5 gal jerry can. The can took a special cap that ran a fuel line to stove. There was no provision made for them to burn any solid fuel.
My understanding was when baggage cars were used as troop kitchens, the mess section set up their issued kitchen equipment in the car and cooked with it. Then when they reached their destination, they repacked the equipment and it was off-loaded with what ever other equipment was with the unit.
Regarding safety regulations. I would be very much surprised if safety regulations were not totally bent out of shape in the haste to move troops. Watching old films of WW II troop and equipment trains, it looks to me like safety was given pretty much lip service, with troops riding on equipment on flat cars, soldiers doing all kinds of stupid things while loading equipment, and other what we would consider today major safety violations routinely happening.
Fuel was provided by a standard 5 gal Jerry can on the ranges I am familiar with. There was a special cap that went on the can that provided a fuel line to the stove and a vent to the fuel can. The Jerry can was inverted on a special cradle with the fuel gravity fed to the stove. On the emersion heaters they had a fuel tank on them that dripped fuel into the heating element to burn at almost the bottom of a standard GI 55 gal Garbage can. The emersion heaters could maintain 50 gals of water at a steady boil for hours.
I just watched the film (see above). It has a couple of shots of 4 standard Army ranges of the time in use in the baggage-kitchen. There is nothing I can see that indicates what the fuel might be.
This source:
http://www.usarmymodels.com/MANUFACTURERS/Resicast/resicast35184.html
says they were normally gasoline fired, but that there was a wood-grate option. Sayin' don't make it so, of course. But if so, it would fit right in to standard rail usage.
Field manual:
http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-10-7360-204-13-and-P.pdf
295 pounds.
Army definition of "portable": anything with handles on it
BRAKIE I suspect those Pullmans was for the comfort of the Officers and high ranking NCO like First Sergeants and Battalion Sergeant Major.
You won that bet, hands down. My father, a Captain at the time, rode UP westbound on the way to Pearl Harbor and duty as a logistics specialist. (His outfit went to Europe, but his specialty was needed in the Pacific.) He said that his train carried a large number of 'casual officers' in 12/1 Pullmans, a couple of Generals in a compartment car and, a regular diner. Up front, in a dozen troop sleepers with interspersed kitchen cars, was a half-batallion of infantry grunts. Their officers, top sergeant, company and platoon sergeants were in the Pullman directly adjacent, the only NCOs in the better accommodations.
That was one of the few war stories he shared with me before I put on the uniform. Until I actually saw combat, he never mentioned the West Loch disaster, the invasion of Saipan or being involved in the logistic side of the only nukes fired in anger.
Chuck [MSgt(ret)USAF modeling Central Japan in September, 1964]
7j43k Note the term "wood basket" (?) on the plans for this troop kitchen: But what the arrangement was in the baggage cars, I do wonder. I just looked at photos of small WWII US Army field ranges. There's obviously "fire" underneath to make the thing work. But I see no provision for liquid fuel storage. And no ventilation stack. They surely don't LOOK to my untrained eye like they could burn wood. But then, how did they get the "gasoline" inside??? I do wonder at the possibility of burning kerosene instead. It's certainly less dangerous. Perhaps there was a compromise. Or. Perhaps the cars were provided with store-bought wood stoves. They were quite available at the time, and they didn't need very many. Hey, when they de-converted them, they could use the stoves elsewhere. Ed
Coal box across from the ranges; wood basket beside them. I see nothing like a fuel "tank".
There is what appears to be a ventilation stack above "ROO" in TROOP SLEEPER, and there are roof vents, which would have been equipped with fans to force the fumes out.
Ed, Normally anything under 100 lbs is one man portable for the Army, and I have seen equipment weighing over 500 lbs labeled as portable with a 4 man lift. Trying to move a complete 81mm mortar comes to mind.
Thanks for the find on the FM about those field ranges. I have never seen a wood grate issued with them. They only had provision for gasoline fuel for the ones I have seen. I agree wood as a fuel source would make much more sense from the RR' point of view, but knowing Army Mess Sgt's I would maintain gasoline was their fuel of choice during those movements. Much easier to come by, than firewood in a lot of Western States, during those movements.
Firewood might have been in short supply, but RR commissaries could readily provide Presto Logs.