BRAKIE For those that model the 50/60s you need to dirty your layout..Railroads was filthy,ran down and in overall deplorable condition.Passenger train was filthy,late and apt to have a break down enroute. There was few exception but,the heyday was over and Government bailouts was the norm. As a youthful and naive modeler I got a shocking surprise once I became a student brakeman I learn the cold facts breakdowns,bad track, poor equipment was the norm---just like my railroading family said. I don't know about rusty boxcars because I haven't seen any and I railfan daily even if its from my man cave window that faces the NS Sandusky mainline. My man cave is the former master bedroom that is now filled with my video gaming table with 32" LED TV,switching layout,work desk and computer desk. I spent most of the morning reading MR,Trains Magazine,Railfan and watching NS trains.
For those that model the 50/60s you need to dirty your layout..Railroads was filthy,ran down and in overall deplorable condition.Passenger train was filthy,late and apt to have a break down enroute. There was few exception but,the heyday was over and Government bailouts was the norm.
As a youthful and naive modeler I got a shocking surprise once I became a student brakeman I learn the cold facts breakdowns,bad track, poor equipment was the norm---just like my railroading family said.
I don't know about rusty boxcars because I haven't seen any and I railfan daily even if its from my man cave window that faces the NS Sandusky mainline. My man cave is the former master bedroom that is now filled with my video gaming table with 32" LED TV,switching layout,work desk and computer desk. I spent most of the morning reading MR,Trains Magazine,Railfan and watching NS trains.
Larry, I have studied a lot of pictures from the 50's, and I remember the 60's rather well.
I don't think the two eras can be lumped together so much.
From what I have seen, in the 50's, yes, trains were dirty, it is dirty business. And there was some degree of left over, worn out, over worked WWII rolling stock floating around. But there was masive reinvestment in rolling stock, larger better hopper cars, piggyback equipment, new bigger box cars, mechanical reefers being developed - and last ditch efforts at new, fast, shinny passenger trains. So, my studies say dirt?, yes. Decay?, not so much in the 50's.
The 60's and into the 70's, now that is a different story. That was truely the beginnng of the "we don't care", run down, rusty, paint peeling, junk eras, not unlike today.
Sheldon
Sheldon:
I am not a Ford fan but if I was to buy one it would be the FLEX for all the reasons that you state. My current ride is a 2014 Honda Odyssey. It is one of the most comfortable cars/vans/whatever that I have owned. Getting in and out is easy for both my wife and me. My lower spine is fused so ducking under a low roof line really messes up my hair (and I am bald on top!). A friend of mine recently bought a Honda SUV. In order to get in and out of the thing I have to drag the top of my head across the top of the door frame. What a stupid design!
Regards,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Lets get real folks. Trains are used to move stuff, not entertain us.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
hon30critter Sheldon: I am not a Ford fan but if I was to buy one it would be the FLEX for all the reasons that you state. My current ride is a 2014 Honda Odyssey. It is one of the most comfortable cars/vans/whatever that I have owned. Getting in and out is easy for both my wife and me. My lower spine is fused so ducking under a low roof line really messes up my hair (and I am bald on top!). A friend of mine recently bought a Honda SUV. In order to get in and out of the thing I have to drag the top of my head across the top of the door frame. What a stupid design! Regards, Dave
Dave, the Odyssey is by far the best of the mini vans, and Honda is a great company.
My personal objection to the mini van concept is the driver position, somewhat high and close to the front, but most importantly I don't care for front wheel drive.
Our FLEX is all wheel drive, a concept I am now sold on for passenger vehicles.
25 years ago I was not a FORD fan either, but 20 years of excellent experiances has changed my mind. That big green truck pictured above, just purchased in 2015, replaced a 2000 FORD F150 with 240,000 trouble free miles of construction work use.
Both FLEX's we have owned - first one crashed at 50,000 miles - have been trouble free, as were several Crown Vic's, several Explorers, and even a Focus our daughter put 170,000 miles on - can't say that about the Nissan she had.....
I restored/hot rodded/rebuilt this Chevy in my teens:
But I'm happy to be a FORD man today,
richg1998 Lets get real folks. Trains are used to move stuff, not entertain us. Rich
And cars are used to transport us and out stuff, yet look at the effort spent on making them attractive.....most of it unsuccessful.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALI restored/hot rodded/rebuilt this Chevy in my teens:
Now there's a roof line that I could be happy with!
My second car was an MGB which I managed to get about 200,000 miles out of through numerous rebuilds and some pretty creative patchwork. I could sit in that car with the top up and still wear my Reserve Officer's dress hat! Today, IF I could get into one (which I doubt) I would probably have to call the fire dept. to get me out again!
By the way, I always thought the Checkers looked pretty good too.
I have been considering a new vehicle. The Flex wasn't remotely on my radar, but after reading Sheldon's description, I will be sure to take a look at it when I decide to make the jump. I too am a big fan of all wheel drive.
Edit:
Apparently Ford has plans to kill the Flex by 2020 because it isn't a big enough seller.
CG
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I restored/hot rodded/rebuilt this Chevy in my teens:
'62/'63 Nova??? Had a '76 with the straight 6, 250 for a couple of years. Loved the simplicity and ease of working under the hood.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
richg1998:
Yes, trains and containers are there to move stuff. But the more imaginative designs and liveries of the past illustrate the point that they can entertain us too, if the effort is expended. I'm more favorably disposed toward a company that interests me, and I don't care much for one that bores me. Whether that translates into a better bottom line for that company, is a question beyond my pay grade.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL I restored/hot rodded/rebuilt this Chevy in my teens: '62/'63 Nova??? Had a '76 with the straight 6, 250 for a couple of years. Loved the simplicity and ease of working under the hood. Tom
Tom,
Yes, 1963 Nova SS convertible. Nova convertibles only made 62 and 63. 63 only Nova convertible with the SS package , which was still a 6 cylinder. V8 not offered in the Nova until 64.
But, late in 63 the factory offered a dealer installed V8 package.
Mine was built as a 6, converted to a V8 by me with full 64 driveline and suspension upgrade. When I bought it, it did not run, the PO had started the V8 conversion and lost interest. I took it nearly completely apart, took nine months to restore/rebuild.
I built the 283 V8, 327 large valve heads, 327 factory hi lift cam, aluminum manifold, 600 cfm Holley carb, custom ignition curve tuning, headers, 2.5" exhaust - about 325 hp.
Muncie M20 4 speed, corvette clutch, heavy duty anti sway bars, adjustable shocks.
Body virtually stock with all SS trim, custom interior, 160 MPH in dash factory look speedometer, original SS full instruments.
Manual steering/manual drum brakes/manual convertible top
0-60 = less than 6 sec.
standing 1/4 mile = 14.5 sec.
top speed = 130+ (don't ask how I know)
fuel economy = 22 mpg highway/12 mpg city
Some not so great photos during the project:
It was my daily driver from 1976 until 1983, about 80,000 miles - then I sold it for nearly what I had invested in it.
It was great fun - so was the blonde........then I bought another Checker for the blonde and I to haul the babies around.......
I'm joining this discussion late so I might be repeating some things others have already said but I'll throw my in anyway.
First of all, I'm a transition era modeler so I don't have a lot of interest in modern day railroading. I haven't researched it at all so these are just casual obervations. It does seem like there is much less emphasis on retail railroading and much more on unit trains where a single commodity is sent by one shipper to one customer. A coal mine and a power plant for example. Most of the freights I see when I am stopped at a crossing will have no more than two or three different types of freight cars in long strings. I'm guessing these strings are all going to one place. I'm sure there are exceptions but I don't know of anywhere that you might see a peddler freight stopping to spot one or two cars. About the only variety I see is the grafitti on the cars, something that seems to have become prevelent in the last 20 years. What I really don't like about modern day freights is the lack of a caboose at the end. I know they have been gone for over 30 years and there is no reason to have one anymore but it still looks wrong to me.
Even on the little Ohio Central branchline that passes through my little burg of Utica, OH there is little variety. A single train travels from the mainline in Newark to the service the grain elevators in Mt. Vernon. The typical consist is 12-15 60' boxcars. On a couple of occasions I have seen a couple tank cars in the consist. To the best of my knowledge the grain elevators are the only customer on the line. There is a grain elevator in Utica as well but it doesn't have a rail siding anymore. Last year I did spot a spur a couple blocks south of the Mt. Vernon grain elevators that led to a covered platform. I wondered if this was a team track and whether or not it was still used but so far I haven't figured it out.
So yes, I do find modern railroading to be boring because of the lack of variety in most of the consists but that's not to say it's boring to everyone. Like everything else in this hobby, it's a matter of individual preference.
BRAKIE For those that would like to see the older EMD switchers and Geeps railfan short lines and for the most part boxcars ladings are their bread and butter. Its great to see a old GP9 pulling 6 or more boxcars..Some shorties still use a Alco end cab switcher as well..
For those that would like to see the older EMD switchers and Geeps railfan short lines and for the most part boxcars ladings are their bread and butter.
Its great to see a old GP9 pulling 6 or more boxcars..Some shorties still use a Alco end cab switcher as well..
Mostly what I see pulling the grain trains on the Ohio Central Newark-Mt. Vernon branch is an old EMD switcher, painted orange and white with no lettering. I used to see an occasional Geep as well. I live about 3 miles from Utica which the daily train passes through on its way up and back down the line. On most days I can hear the horn blowing as it negotiates the numerous grade crossings on the line.
Along my favorite stretch of railroad (BNSF at Lyle WA), I saw last year:
A whole lotta "unit" trains: coal, oil, grain, ocean intermodal, military, land intermodal, trash (ugh!).
And.
Some regular trains with "assorted" cars. Woodchip, centerbeam, tank, box, flats with steel sheet, flats with poles, gons with scrap steel...........
The local. I had a radio, so I could hear them discussing with the dispatcher about picking up or dropping off (can't remember which) a load of wood--I think at Bingen. And not tying up the main. Power for the local tends to be one or two GP38-2's and/or derated GP50's.
And one CABOOSE. Yup. Which prompted me to order one of the recent Atlas versions.
Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe 60's and into the 70's, now that is a different story. That was truely the beginnng of the "we don't care", run down, rusty, paint peeling, junk eras, not unlike today. Sheldon
Very true but,there was a rainbow in the late 70s called the IPD boxcar era where very colorful and brand new 50' boxcars was seen everywhere.
Back to the 50s..The railroads was filthy,grimy and beginning to run down due to the State and Federal Governments forcing rails to operate unprofitable branch lines and passenger trains which cost millions to keep in operation. John G. Kneiling The Professional Iconoclast even stated railroads was doom if they didn't change their business as usual practices.
He preached unit trains,intermodal trains,smaller crews and cabooseless trains was the future of railroading if they wished to survive beyond the year 2000.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL The 60's and into the 70's, now that is a different story. That was truely the beginnng of the "we don't care", run down, rusty, paint peeling, junk eras, not unlike today. Sheldon Very true but,there was a rainbow in the late 70s called the IPD boxcar era where very colorful and brand new 50' boxcars was seen everywhere. Back to the 50s..The railroads was filthy,grimy and beginning to run down due to the State and Federal Governments forcing rails to operate unprofitable branch lines and passenger trains which cost millions to keep in operation. John G. Kneiling The Professional Iconoclast even stated railroads was doom if they didn't change their business as usual practices. He preached unit trains,intermodal trains,smaller crews and cabooseless trains was the future of railroading if they wished to survive beyond the year 2000.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The 60's and into the 70's, now that is a different story. That was truely the beginnng of the "we don't care", run down, rusty, paint peeling, junk eras, not unlike today. Sheldon
I think we need to seperate the early 50's from the late 50's.........
And, the railroads were all in for piggyback/intermodal, very soon after WWII - it was the government that was in the way.........
If rates and territories for both trucks and trains had been deregulated then, not 30 years later, railroads would have done better, trucking would be different but very effective, 100's of billions of gallons of diesel fuel would have been saved, and the highways would be less crowded and safer.......
My father worked in the trucking industry, he was offered a job with the Southern Railroad's piggyback operation. He gave it a try, but problems with regulations slowed its implimentation and he moved on back into the trucking side.
The early/mid 50's was full of new colorful box cars, B&O silver and blue, NYC red and grey, MP blue and yellow, and the piggyback shemes were bright and fancy too.
Did all that "new" last real long? Maybe not, but model railroading is like a snapshot in time........that's why I model 1954........
ATLANTIC CENTRALDid all that "new" last real long? Maybe not, but model railroading is like a snapshot in time........that's why I model 1954........ Sheldon
That's why I like 77/78 era,lots of colorful IPD short line boxcars.
There is a difference between the early 50s and late 50s as well as location.I remember well the PRR steam along side of brand new GP9s and RS11s in the mid 50s. I also recall N&W's GP9s and RS11s stayed cleaner then PRRs.
One thing I never seen modeled..The soiled toilet paper found along the track. You recall "Passengers will please refrain from flushing toilet while standing at a station".
My family took an overnight train from Montreal to Toronto in the early 50's. As I recall, it was a very pleasant experience.
In the mid to late 50's I hung out around the Bay Area SP stations, tracks, and yards. Stations and other facilities were still neat and clean. Equipment was painted, as far as I can remember. I know it was nothing like the horrid shape it later descended into.
In school there was a lot of talk about railroads, but it was all about the end of steam. Even the adults were sad.
jecorbett I'm joining this discussion late so I might be repeating some things others have already said but I'll throw my in anyway. First of all, I'm a transition era modeler so I don't have a lot of interest in modern day railroading. I haven't researched it at all so these are just casual obervations. It does seem like there is much less emphasis on retail railroading and much more on unit trains where a single commodity is sent by one shipper to one customer. A coal mine and a power plant for example. Most of the freights I see when I am stopped at a crossing will have no more than two or three different types of freight cars in long strings. I'm guessing these strings are all going to one place. I'm sure there are exceptions but I don't know of anywhere that you might see a peddler freight stopping to spot one or two cars. About the only variety I see is the grafitti on the cars, something that seems to have become prevelent in the last 20 years.
First of all, I'm a transition era modeler so I don't have a lot of interest in modern day railroading. I haven't researched it at all so these are just casual obervations. It does seem like there is much less emphasis on retail railroading and much more on unit trains where a single commodity is sent by one shipper to one customer. A coal mine and a power plant for example. Most of the freights I see when I am stopped at a crossing will have no more than two or three different types of freight cars in long strings. I'm guessing these strings are all going to one place. I'm sure there are exceptions but I don't know of anywhere that you might see a peddler freight stopping to spot one or two cars. About the only variety I see is the grafitti on the cars, something that seems to have become prevelent in the last 20 years.
This is extremely reliant on where you live though. Here in DC and Northern Virginia, the only unit trains are the Juice Train and coal moving to Georgia and South Carolina. Two out of three trains is a manifest freight. The most common thing I see is boxcars. It's a huge shift from Pittsburgh, where it was all coal, scrap, and coil cars. We don't even get autoracks through Virginia. They don't fit in the tunnel under Virginia Ave in DC.
Last year I had a motel room overlooking the tracks coming off of Long Bridge into DC. We're talking "stone's throw" distances.
Lotsa juice. Lotsa what looked like phosphates. Fair amount of chemicals.
I surely miss Pot Yard. And the grade crossing at Burke, VA.
And, occasionally, my yute. Near Burke. And Alexandria.
OK. If you insist: looking out the window of freshman english at the southbound tracks of Potomac Yard.
I take back the no autoracks because the first doublestacks just moved through Virginia Ave on saturday.
It depends on where you are. I see UP, NS, and CN freights through here along with regular Metra commuter traffic, and just about any type of freight car still in service runs through here pretty regularly. If I modeled modern day in my area, there would be *so much* to choose from.
I do wonder what's going on at the Vulcan Materials siding though, the same SSAM jennies have been sitting there for months.
Friday afternoon was funny stuff. 11 CN locomotives pulling 8 tank cars. Anyone sensible would probably see this as a power move, but I like to think of it as overkill :)
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
I enjoy running My ATHG AT&SF Freight Blue/Yellow F3 A-B-B-A set on our clubs module layout. I discovered it is pretty easy to model a transition era freight train with any ATHG F3's/F7's, some steam era freight cars, and the right type of caboose. I know 50/60's are usually stagnant and don't change much, but that was my first train I started with when I joined the club. I'm slowly working on expanding my roster collection based on what I like, not what someone else says.
To put it another way, 50's/60's are usually stagnant while 70's/80's/90's are more dynamic, shedding at the older end while it adds at the upper end.
Example; ATSF drops SD45-2's and adds more SD75M's. Then SD75M's are retired and BNSF brings in C44-9W's and AC4400CW's. ES44AC's are next in line.
ATSFGuy To put it another way, 50's/60's are stagnant while 70's/80's/90's are more dynamic, shedding at the older end while it adds at the upper end. Example; ATSF drops SD45-2's and adds more SD75M's. Then SD75M's are retired and BNSF brings in C44-9W's and AC4400CW's.
To put it another way, 50's/60's are stagnant while 70's/80's/90's are more dynamic, shedding at the older end while it adds at the upper end.
Example; ATSF drops SD45-2's and adds more SD75M's. Then SD75M's are retired and BNSF brings in C44-9W's and AC4400CW's.
?????? What does this mean?
If you truely model a specific year, with a specific cutoff date, all modeling is stagnant. It is a fixed moment in time.
You don't have or represent anything after your cut off, it did not exist yet. The fact that it is "going to exist" has no bearing on your modeling.
The 60's may have been a "stagnant" or declining period for the railroads, the 50's was not. That's why I haven no interest in the "trains of my youth" that so many say "we are supposed" to be interested in modeling. I grew up in the 60's and 70's.
If, for example, it is September 25, 1954 on your layout, than you can have anything that existed before that time, that logicaly would still be in use, but if your are strict about it, than you will have NOTHING that has not been build yet, even if it showed up on September 26, 1954 - that is a "stagnant" or fixed snapshot in time - so is July 10, 1986.....
The newest loco on my layout is an SD9 - EMD produced the first ones in January 1954........
As for what was going in in railroading in the 50's, all thru the 50's the railroads were investing in massive conversions of flat cars into piggyback service, roller bearing trucks were being introduced widespread, nearly all the diesels were new, and EMD and ALCO could not build them fast enough, that's the only thing that really kept steam around as long as it did.
Some roads made last ditch efforts with new passenger equipment while others looked to eliminate passenger service while still others looked to re-invent passenger service with RDC's, the AeroTrain, etc.
Cushion underframes were introduced, plug doors introduced, mechanical reefers introduced, long flat cars introduced, container transport introduced/expanded, colorful paint schemes at least for diesel locos, piggyback vans, reefers and box cars in priority package services.
The railroads were rebuilding after nearly a decade of defered maintenence during the war, a war we entered at the end of a depression.
The 50's stagnant, I think not, now the "dip black" late 60's and 70's, that is boring.........and depressing.
My era is better than your era; na na. It had to come to this.
Didn't anyone else look at the title of this thread as being in the same category as: DC is Dead, DCC is Dead, Bluerail will replace everything, Model railroading is too expensive?
These types of threads gather the most coments of any; but to me it is not a discussion around the campfire with adult beverages. It is more like the discusion before the bar fight. These are the Drive-by threads, to paraphrase a popular radio commentator, designed to get people worked up over nothing.
If railroading was boring and uninspiring, why would any of us be here? We would be out having a good time with shuffleboard.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy My era is better than your era; na na. It had to come to this. Didn't anyone else look at the title of this thread as being in the same category as: DC is Dead, DCC is Dead, Bluerail will replace everything, Model railroading is too expensive? These types of threads gather the most coments of any; but to me it is not a discussion around the campfire with adult beverages. It is more like the discusion before the bar fight. These are the Drive-by threads, to paraphrase a popular radio commentator, designed to get people worked up over nothing. If railroading was boring and uninspiring, why would any of us be here? We would be out having a good time with shuffleboard.
Henry, it is not about one era being better or more interesting than the next, but it is about others misrepresenting facts.
Fact - In 1954 an F3 was not an old decrepit locomotive - the oldest F3 at that time was 9 years old, an the oldest F7 or GP7 was only 5 years old, as noted above a SD9 was brand new.
Now, if you are modeling 1973, an F7 is an old, about to be replaced, worn out 24 year old junker........
And I don't drink "adult beverages", or hang out with those who do, because for the most part they lead to people not behaving like adults.......
PS - and if others want to model some other era, or no era at all, or loosely collect and run trains from 1970 to 1990, that's fine with me.
They just need not tell me "what the 50's was like" because clearly they have not studied railroad history in any detail.
A few more thoughts, covered much earler, but just to be clear.
Railroading is generally a dirty business, the 50's was no different.
But there is a big difference between dirt vs rust and decay.
The late 40's and the early 50's was a time of rebuilding, replacing, repainting, repurposing (like 1930's boxcar underframes rebuilt into piggyback flat cars) and upgrading after the war time years of neglect.
So sure, there were still 1930's box cars and hoppers in not so great condition, but they were replaced or rebuilt as quickly as possible starting right away after the war.
By the early 50's, dispite a few bumps in the economy, the railroads were flush with cash, buying new diesels, building new bigger boxcars, offering flashing express services, investing in piggyback, repainting and rebuilding, etc.
True, by 1958, or 1963, not all of those investments had paid off as well as hoped.........but if you model 1954, that hope still exists....and that paint is still shinny........
And for those of you who model the PRR, or who observed the PRR in that time - other railroads did actually clean stuff..........
ATLANTIC CENTRALThey just need not tell me "what the 50's was like" because clearly they have not studied railroad history in any detail.
Or maybe they have and did a lot of railfaning in the 50s? I recall the decaying 50s when everything was filthy and to top that there was rows of dead steam engines covered in pigeon poo.
Study of those perfect 50 era photos in books doesn't tell the real gritty story that railfans of that era avoid taking photos of..
Ever wonder why I never had the desire to model the 50s era even though I toyed with the idea? The 60s told the story of dying railroads that was operating under Chapter 13 just to stay afloat.
You can be sure I have no desire to model todays railroads either.
Larry, that makes no sense? Those steam locos were lined up in the dead line because they had been replaced by brand new shinny diesels. We had lines of them here in Baltimore too, some still sitting around in the late 60's
And once again - dirty is different from rusty and broken - up close railroading has always been a dirty business - so is trucking, or ships........
I never disagreed with dirty...........EXCEPT, the Western Maryland and the N&W kept their locos nearly spotless.
The N&W had massive indoor shops were the steam locos, and later the diesels too, were serviced and steam cleaned all along various point on the line. It was part of their program to keep steam longer than other roads did, and to some degree it worked.
Everyone in this discussion seems to miss the point that selecting and modeling a set era means just that, a fixed snapshot in time, with no regard for what will happen next - because it is the future.
If you model 1954, you should model it honestly, but with the same optimism with which the railroads built thousands of piggyback flats, bought new diesels (even from ALCO), or the same optimism with which the ATSF and C&O ordered new passenger cars and the B&O bought a large fleet of RDC's.
If you model a different era, adjust you findings as needed........
But even the depression was not as "depressed" as some have chosen to model it.
At any moment in time, there will always be new things, and old things in the world. There will always be people who choose hope, and those who wallow in dispare. There will always be those who restore an old house, and those who drive a bull dozer through one - we all see the world from a different point of view.
Even looking at eras in railroad history I don't care for, there is good to be seen and modeled.
My father worked for CAROLINA FREIGHT in the 70's. They had a fleet of 1950's Mack B models they still used for local delivery. They had a continious program of total restoration - not one of those 20 year old trucks ever looked more than 5 years old. I personally watched the restoration of several of them in their Baltimore shop.
See the world however you like, I choose to see the better version......
The Transition era (steam-diesel) changes a little bit but not that much unless you model all fifties without a cutoff date.
It varies since every modeler is different.
if you model the 1970's, 1980's, or 1990's, remember that cabooses started to fade away after 1986.
On my railroad, 1990 is the cutoff year for cabooses. After 1990, the EOT is introduced and becomes the norm.