Modeling on the cheap
There are no signs on my land, either. But you're still trespassing. And me and/or my delegated representatives can ask you to leave and/or call the cops.
Me and my delegated representatives cannot force you to delete your pictures. That is illegal. Well, actually, we can. But it's still illegal. If we were intensely concerned about the pictures, I suppose we could detain you long enough for the police to arrive and try to convince the police to seize the material.
You argue that the gravel road must be a public road because employees and customers must use it. By that reasoning, the driveway to your garage would be a public road because repairmen must use it when they fix your stove. It ain't.
Don't bother to contact the security company. They either are or are not doing what the landowners ask them to. Contact the owner(s) of the land and discuss the matter with them. They may well agree with you that the guard overstepped. Or they may try to explain to you why you were wrong. I recommend approaching them without anger in your heart.
By the way, there are security guards and there are railroad police. The latter have full police powers, just like the cop on the beat.
I once ran into a security guard who crossed onto public property and tried to intimidate me. He carried a baseball bat. The next day I called the company and asked if it was their policy to do such things. I was assured it was most definitely not. And that guard was gone. And I was impressed. It was Matson, if you're asking.
On the other hand and under different circumstances, I could have been totally in the wrong. It happens.
The security guard was certainly incompetent, or bordering on it. Here's what I would have done:
[Friendly smile on my face] "Hi, sir. Watcha doin'?" "Oh, yeah?" "That's pretty neat." "Personally, it'd be fine with me if you did that all day. But my bosses, if they saw you, would be pretty inclined to fire me. And I need the job. So, and I know it sucks, but I've gotta ask you to leave."
See. By the time I'm done, you're worried about me and my job. And off you go.
Of course, you might see things differently and get belligerent. Then I can use other options. But NEVER at first.
Ed
Reason for starting with the security company is not sure who he was working for, one of the two companys on that road, the railroad or the locomotive rebuilder. I am not trying to get him or his company in trouble, just trying to find out where i can take pictures legaly. Looking on the internet there is a LOT of pictures/video being taken from that road, so i am not the only one to use it. Hopefully i can find out something before someone else has a bad day also.
Funney thing that road/yard is listed on a major website as being a spot to watch trains etc.
Ah, yes. I see your point about calling the security company. They certainly know who signs their checks.
I do think it will be worthwhile to contact the owning company and have a nice friendly chat. A downside is, if you have another run-in if they've said no, you can't plead ignorance. An upside is that you might meet a friendly supportive person who thinks what you want to do is great(ish).
If they just don't want you on their property, you may have to determine on your own which land is public.
Not sure how to find out on my own, maybe the local police.
Was just looking on the web at some pictures taken there in last two months, some of them are for sure taken on the railroad propety. Maybe they are having a probelm with railfans going where they should not be going. As for the road i would think putting up a sign would work, and be cheaper than having a guard there. As for the road it goes on for about 1/4 mile past the other two companys then ends, never going over any of the tracks. Which is one of the reasons it thought it was a public road.
First the security guard has no right to tell you to delete your photos since trains are public.Even a LEO can't do that-there are exceptions that deals with national security..
Secondly a security guard authority ends at his client's property line and since there are other businesses on that gravel road I doubt if that road was his post. You see the client of a security company pays for protection of their property not several unless its a industrial park then the management of the property foots the security bill and security of the property will include exterior roving patrols by vehicle and other like duties. If a company located in that industrial park wants interior security then they must hire a security company.
I have several photos that looks like I was on railroad property..I wasn't.I zoomed in.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It's been a long time since I walked up the steps to the Interlocking tower and found a room full of other rail fans listening to the operators train stories. His boss probably wouldn't have liked it, but back then, the thought that anyone with a camera would be a security threat was on no one's mind.
9-11 changed everything. The US Naval Academy built a sand bag machine gun nest at Gate 8. I am sorry I never took a picture of that, but I didn't think they would let me. For 3 days it was 2' high, then they made it 10' high
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
When I was in my twenties, my nephew would tag along with me on trips to visit local railroad installations for photos. Beginning when he was a pre-schooler, I taught him a few basic things: Never run on railroad property; Step over the rails and never on them; Never stand within the gauge; Look around frequently to be aware of nearby train activity. I told him he didn't always have to hold my hand, but he must always be close enough that he can reach out and touch me. When we arrived on railroad property, we would make our presence known. Back then, towers were fairly common, and we would go straight to the tower to get a lineup of trains. The direct approach always made the most sense and showed our good intentions. When we approached them in a respectful way and demonstrated that we knew what we were doing, the employees were almost invariably welcoming and helpful.
This has all been turned on its head in the past several years. I don't do much railfanning any more because I got tired of getting the bum's rush or being treated like a criminal.
My nephew? He grew up and went into a non-railroad line of work, but became a fine photographer and a qualified locomotive engineer on a major tourist railroad. After he got married, his railroad activities lessened; but he is still active, and is qualified to run diesels and steam. Aside from his activities running trains, he doesn't do much railfanning nowadays either.
It seems to me that modern railroads are shooting themselves in the foot when they discourage the general public from showing that they like railroads. Everybody needs friends, and overly zealous security measures don't make many friends for the railroads. If they really thought about it, they would realize that sympathetic railfans can be an extra layer of observant security for them, and they don't even have to pay for it. But I don't think they're that smart.
Tom
ACYThis has all been turned on its head in the past several years. I don't do much railfanning any more because I got tired of getting the bum's rush or being treated like a criminal.
I guess that must vary from location to location..I visit NS Bellevue yard and CSX Willard yard several times a year and never had issues with the local LEOs or the railroad bulls.. I have railfanned the OC,R.J.Corman and Ashland Ry.
Then there's the dozens of daily railroad videos being posted on You Tube so,its seems railfans are still very active..
I see you're from the Quad Cities and you mention a locomotive rebuilder, I'm guessing you were over at Silvis near the old RI shops? If so, I'm guessing the security guard worked for the shop owner (NRE) and I've heard they are very unfriendly towards railfans. That's from other railfans and not only at there Silvis facility. It's been 40 years since I've been to Silvis and it was still RI then.
Jeff
That gravel road may be either public or private. If private, there almost certainly will be an ingress/egress easement for those businesses. The easement would allow their customers, suppliers, employees, and anyone else with legitimate business with them to travel over the road in order to reach the business.
However, if it is an easement and you have no legitimate business with at least one of the businesses located there, you probably would be trespassing. That doesn’t necessarily mean you can be arrested for it. In my state, at least, an official warning has to be issued first. Even a sign doesn’t cut it for simple trespass on a private road or driveway.
Depending on the exact wording of the easement (often vague in my experience) photography from the easement may or may not be permitted. Absent any definitive language on the subject, a court would apply the reasonableness test, which would almost certainly be in your favor. Photography from any public right of way or area cannot be prohibited except in certain cases, all federal that I am aware of.
If the railroad is not the property owner, easement owner, or leaseholder, their security guards should not have any authority over you whatsoever. In any event, forcing you to delete the photos could be a criminal act if was done in a coercive manner. If it was me, I would report the incident to the police.
For what it's worth, in my long ago misspent youthful experience, railroad police always identify themselves as such. CG
CentralGulfIf the railroad is not the property owner, easement owner, or leaseholder, their security guards should not have any authority over you whatsoever. In any event, forcing you to delete the photos could be a criminal act if was done in a coercive manner. If it was me, I would report the incident to the police.
CG,The railroads has a police force not a mere security guard-a private security guard is limited to a risky "citizens arrest" at best and advised not to do that-observe and report the incident or in extreme cases call the police..99% of the time the security guard is to observe and report and let the client decide the best action to take. The guard,his employer and client is protected from lawsuits.. That 1% covers extreme cases like B&E,employee toting a firearm or other like emergencies except a fist fight between the client's employees..Again the guard will submit a report and client will handle that privately.
The railroad police has full arrest power like any LEO as long as you are on railroad property.
That rebuild shop in not a railroad. The OP identified the person as a security guard. As I mentioned, the railroad police always identify themselves as such (meaning they identify themselves as railroad or railway police). If the individual was a railroad cop, he would have said so.
CG
The JURISDICTION where this took place (the town, city, or county) has an engineering department that should be able to tell you who owns the particular property. As described, it certainly sounds like a private road. It would be far easier, however, to go to what is clearly a public road crossing of the track or public overpass and then stay on that public right-of-way and use a long lens if needed.
The actions (real or alleged) of overactive security officials has been repeately discussed over on the Trains side of the forum. There have also been quite a few admissions of improper behavior from railfans. Although there have not been any changes to the law allowing photography from public places since "9-11", the perception and reaction has changed. It is just easier to stay on public right-of-way and avoid the drama.
Bill
Just got off the phone with the security company. The gravel road i was on is a public road. The private road to the railroad and locmotive rebuilder is off to the right side with gates, and is marked. I was on the public road so, as for delating the pictures, the guard should not of asked that, unless i was on there land. They apologized for losing the pictures, and would talk to the guard, which i said i was not trying to get him in trouble. I was just trying to figure out where i could take pictures legaly. It was a pleasant talk with them and i understoud the probelm they have with people going on the railroad for various reasons. I was glad to get it resolved with one phone call. Unlike a probelm i am having with Big chain store that i have been trying to get done fror over two weeks now.
One of the posters above asked where this happened, can i post where it happned?
Also when i get a chance going to verify with the local police that is public road, just to make sure.
Fourt,First I think I better clarify something.I worked as a security guard from 93-96 until I landed my warehouse job as a forklift operator and I had a 4 hour block of instruction on my duties and legal status.
The guard in question needs a sit down talking to since he was way out of line and off his post apparently.
You're handling this very well. Good on you.
For future reference, most counties now have their property maps on the tax assessor's website. You can generally type in an address and find the property maps for the area and it will usually identify public road rights of way in addition to the private property.
Ray
Fourt:
Sounds to me like this is simply a case of a person being given a uniform and the supposed authority has gone to his head. It would be nice if all the guard needed was an explanation of what his authority consisted of, but if he was outside of his assigned area and he was imposing his own rules then he might not be the right person for the job. I'm sure that neither the railway company nor the security company want someone on the job who can't control themselves.
I think you have handled the situation very well from start to finish. You kept your cool, and you didn't set out to get the guy fired. More people should follow your example.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
There were a few instances where I had discussions with Amtrak police on when and where I could and could not photograph trains and facilities. This was before a corporate policy had been established and the regulations at that time varied WIDELY by location.
Here is the Amtrak policy:
https://www.amtrak.com/photography-video-recording-policy
Perhaps you could search for a similar policy for the railroad that you are attempting to photograph?
Regards, Ed
That was a good article on the Amtrak policy. Dont go where you should not go.
Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following:
Looked on there web site only thing i found was long article on dos and don't etc on using there web site. Could not find anything on picture taking.
The manager at the security company said that in the past that people asking to take pictures on site have allways been turned down, I am betting insurance or libailty being the main reason. Which makes seanse.
fourt:
fourt A few years back i read a article somewhere about a american solider in England during ww2 in uniform taking train pictures, and was told to stop by a railroad perosn saying dont you know there is a war going on. Always found that funney.
With all due respect, I don't think the situation was funny at all. A common saying in North America during WWII was "Loose lips sink ships". Land transport was no different. Had it been the enemy taking those pictures they could have used the photos to determine things like the timing of bombing runs. Who knows who else could have been on those trains? The fact that the photographer was dressed in a uniform means nothing. Faking a uniform is easy.
I'm not trying to play the heavy here, but your sense of humour in this case is misguided. WWII took 7,000,000 lives. It is not a laughing matter!
And, while I am ranting, not too long ago in Ontario two real terrorists were caught planning to derail a GO train at speed. Part of the proof of their intentions were the photographs that they had taken of the train while it was transitioning from one track to another. All they needed to do was blow up a switch at the right time and the results would have been disasterous. Are you still laughing?!
Sorry, but your naivete upset me.
Sorry that bothered you, it was not meant to be offensive. I have removed that part of my post. Having spent 21 years in the miltary i understand where you are coming from.
I'm sorry if I came on a little strong, and I appreciate you removing the comment from your post.
Regards,
Fourt,As a combat veteran I can see the humor and irony in that story. Then battlefield humor knows no bounds either. That's how we kept our sanity.
Larry, I understand the nature of battlefield humour and the purpose it serves and I agree that it has its place. Also, I have no knowledge of the nature of fourt's service and whether he served in hostilities or not. What bothers me a lot is when people who have not experienced the field of battle think it is funny to joke about the war. We cannot allow younger generations to take the war(s) lightly.
Fourt, if you have seen the field of battle then I apologize profusely for overstepping my bounds.
With respect,
fourt That was a good article on the Amtrak policy. Dont go where you should not go. Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following: Platforms (ticketed passengers are exempt) ops did not know about that one, my bad. Wonder why? to close to the train? Looked on there web site only thing i found was long article on dos and don't etc on using there web site. Could not find anything on picture taking. The manager at the security company said that in the past that people asking to take pictures on site have allways been turned down, I am betting insurance or libailty being the main reason. Which makes seanse.
Insurance liability . Amtrak often doesn't own the platform and the host railroad does.
Nittanylion
Or getting in way of paying passengers getting on and off the train.
hon30critter
Its okay, even in the real road I do or say things that make no seanse drives my wife crazey. part of it comes from serving, part of it is i am mildly autistic. I also tend to take things very literal. The statement i made was in bad taste, i should have said interresting instead of funney or not even posted it. I am sorry, and apologize to any one else that found it in poor taste.
All others
Main reason i posted this message was make sure you are on public land, not private land when taking pictures. Don't give the cop/railroad cop/secuity guard or other any probelms, just do what they say and figure it out later how you choose in a safe manner. Speaking of safe please do be safe when taking pictures.
And last but not lest have fun.
fourtSpeaking of safe please do be safe when taking pictures.
And above all stay back..There is no need to stand or sit within 20' of the track.Trains are big and can be seen at a safer 50' and watch at three quarters view for any impending trouble and always have a escape route away from the track.
If you're in known snake country stay clear of weeds,rocks, logs and bushes because Mr. or Ms. Fangs may be awaiting their meal to pass by or just hiding and chilling out.
And please be responsible and leave nothing behind except your foot prints.