Looking at the various painted HO models of the Texas & Pacific Texas types by Sunset Models, Glacier Park Models as well as the upcoming Broadway Limited model, I can see that they all one thing in common: a green boiler and green cylinders. The Sunset Models are mostly custom painted so the intensity of the green might vary from a soft light green to a stronger Great Northern style green. The green color of the Glacier Park models is definetly "greener" than the green color of the upcoming Broadway Limited models, but even if being a very light green on the Braodway Limited models, it is still green in the end. There is no way I can recognize that the color of the Broadway Limited model is going into the blue-grey direction which is more prototypically correct. Or is blue-grey really correct? At least I have never seen a color photo of the prototypes with green boilder and cylinders, so I really wonder why those manufacturers give their models a green or green-grey color instead of grey or blue-grey.
Here are the 3 only color photos of the Texas & Pacific Texas types that I could find, and of course none of the engines photographed there have green or green-grey boiler and cylinders. All 3 photos are dating from the early 50s, but only the first photo of #630 shows the color during active service life, as the next 2 photos of #638 and #610 show these engines already as exhibits on display after being retired from service, which was the case in December 1949 with #638 and in August 1951 with #610.
Especially the first photo with the all black #630 proves what I was already thinking when looking at many black and white photos of that time (late 40s and early 50s): it looks like most if not all engines of this type were already painted all black during this time. Only those 9 engines of this type that were upgraded with roller bearings, boxpock drivers and delta trailing trucks between November 1947 and June 1949 I imagine being not all black but having blue grey or grey boilers and cylinders as they were surely freshly painted before being outshopped after the rebuilding procedure was over. So I wonder why Glacier Park or Broadway Limited claim to have models which are representing a paint scheme from their late service lifes, as this is obviously not true. The engines seemed to have been black by then, and even those two that were preserved and set up for display (well the #638 didn´t survive much longer as it was scrapped in 1954) clearly don´t show any trace of green but grey or blue-grey. At least my eyes can´t recognize any green when looking at these photos.
So my question is: Was that green color Glacier Park and Broadway Limited use ever applied to these engines or is it even the "as-delivered" paint scheme from 1925-1929? Or is it indeed wrong as the color was blue-grey or grey as can be seen on the photos of #638 and #610?
What is also interesting: Glacier Park produced models with white trim lines along the running board, below the cab and along the tender bottom as well as models without those lines (but all share the green boiler and cylinders). It would be also interesting to know what is correct. For example, on the photo #638 doesn´t show any white trim lines, while the photo of #610 shows those trim lines and in addition to that even the wheels have trim, but in contrast to the Glacier Park model all those trim lines are not white but silver! Even the trailing truck and tender truck journals are silver as well as the brass cap on the stack (which looks very good in my opinion by the way)!
The original color was supposed to be "Russian Iron" and dates to the 1800's when boiler jacketing was constructed of heavily hand-hammered while still hot iron. The actual color tone can vary from blue or blue-grey to green or green-grey, based upon other online sources.
At some point during or prior to the 1920's, Texas & Pacific (and others) got away from using actual "Russian Iron" but wanted to retain that kind of paint coloration.
On roads like the Great Northern, the green was never a "standard" paint color but was applied by one shop complex. Even the GN "Glacier Green" varied considerably from a bright green to a lighter shade of green and even a blue-green color, depending upon when engines were shopped and painted, and likely by the amount of paint on hand.
I'm all about the green boilered engines myself, but have studied the topic enough to know that if the model has a green boiler, that has to be about "good enough" as the prototypical painting and weathering did result in severe fading.
Rio Grande fans love the green boiler jacketing too--yet color photos of any Rio Grande engines in green are actually very rare--especially articulateds (there is one famous photo)! So the relatively few color photos that exist probably do not do justice to the actual paint colors.
I bought the BLI brass hybrid GN 4-8-4 in green, and am considering a T&P 2-10-4, but there are also other models on my radar...I might be trading the 4-8-4 in on a GN 2-8-8-0 (unfortunately only in black) this coming week.
John
Well when I think of Russian Iron the Erie Triplex Mallet comes to my mind (especially the MTH model). It´s definetly blue-grey. No trace of green. So I always connect it with blue when I hear Russion Iron.
Nah, I´m not so much into this topic that I would creat an account on brasstrains.com! Especially not as I´m totally convinced that the items sold there are totally overpriced. I also must tell you the exact contrary: It´s the other way round! Here in Germany where I live most US brass models get sold for a much lower price than in the USA! That´s why I shipped the 2 brass engines I once owned to a friend in the USA because I couldn´t sell it here in Germany not even for the minimum price I wanted to sell it! After the items arrived to his house, I put them on ebay.com instead of ebay.de and I sold off very well for a much higher price than it would have sold in Germany. My experience clearly tells me that US buyers pay much more for brass than in Germany, as brass models are higher valued in the USA. Germans are not big fans of brass in general as most models don´t have all the technical features of nowadays plastic and die cast metal models (lights, sound, smoke, DCC, smaller minimum operating radius).
How is your BLI GN S-2 operating? I heard very mixed reviews about this model which makes me fear that the upcoming T&P I-1a might have the same issues. I hope you can give me a small review or something like that once you own it. I´m especially curious to know if it will still be able to run through 20" radius curves, because if not, I won´t purchase it even if it´s otherwise perfect.
The fact that you say that you might be trading in the S-2 for the 2-8-8-0 tells me that you probaly really aren´t satisfied with the S-2. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong!
FWIW, I've always heard that Russia Iron tends to be a sort of teal blue, with a very slight greenish tint, and it varied a bit.
I used to know some GN fans when I lived in the Midwest, and the consensus among them was that there was no standard Glacier Park Green. It varied according to whatever was available, but tended to be a much brighter green than Russia Iron.
As far as the question of acceptable operating radius, I have often wondered why the manufacturers insist on offering such large steam engine models. A steamer with four driving axles can generally be engineered to take most model railroad curves. I cannot recall a readily available HO Consolidation with drivers in the 55-58" diameter range. It seems that a Santa Fe or Harriman 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 would be natural best sellers. A Harriman small straight-boiler Pacific would be another good choice. Any of these could be adapted to other prototypes by a person who is willing to do the work.
But what do I know?
Tom
They offer them because people want (to operate) them. Remember it´s a model railroad, not the real deal. That´s why you must create the engines a in a way so that they can handle curves what they couldn´t take in prototype size. If you really wanted to have 100% prototypical curves on your layout, almost nobody would have so much space available for it to model as the layouts would turn out much huger. Many european manufacturers produce all of their steamers with the ability to handle 360 degree curves = 14 inch radius curves. Märklin/Trix Big Boy handles 14" curves with no problems at all. Also other big single framed european steamers like German 2-10-2 or French 4-8-2 types can easily handle 14" curves because they are constructed to do so. People in Europe don´t have so much space like in the USA, and because of that they won´t reject buying a big steamer just because it would look unrealistic when being operated through tight curves. They want it to run it reliably through their layouts and to have fun with it because it´s more important than how it looks in the curve. That´s all. And if the models cannot run through tight curves, they simply won´t buy them. Best example is the AC experiment of MTH: MTH started offering their HO scale Big Boys, Challengers, Triplexes and GS-4 Northerns also as AC versions all those Märklin-modelers who run their trains on AC Märklin-track. This turned out to be huge financial loss for MTH because people didn´t buy these models simply because of one reason: they can´t operate through tight radius curves (14" radius curves to be more precise). If 22" is set as minimum radius, it simply won´t sell in Europe because most modelers have much smaller minimum radii on their layouts. The response to these AC models by MTH was so poor, that they cancelled their PRR K4, PRR H8, Allegheny and Yellowstone AC versions because preorder numbers were so low. It doesn´t mean people rejected them becaus of bad technique. No! It was just because they are unsuitable for most European layouts. I´m sure sales would habe been higher and cancelations lesser if they constructed their steamers to handle 14" curves.
Hi De Luxe--
First, I had read elsewhere on the internet that the Russian Iron color could vary from the blue-grey to grey or grey-green. I had found something under a Rio Grande website...
The BLI S-2 4-8-4 runs reasonably well, actually pretty fast relative to most brass models. It seems to be prone to slight power and/or speed surging even in DCC. The sound is ok, I guess, but I set it to be "off". The biggest issue is there is definitely some gear noise that at higher speeds can drown out the sound. Performance wise, I don't know about the minimum radius and would have to check. However, they normally will perform as advertised.
Ok, I always heard that Russian Iron is definetly blueish but not greenish. But yeah, maybe it can just be both. It´s just interesting to see that all those painted T&P Texans produced (and the upcoming BLi ones) have a clearly greenish color. No trace of blue at all.
Yes, I can imagine that the superexpensive stuff is finding its way to Japan rather than to Europe, as you have not many but few very rich people there who can afford it. But it´s interesting to see that most brass models used to be produced in Japan originally for the US market, and now the expensive brass models seem to be bought by Japanese....
Yeah you see? Sound only ok, prone to slight power, gear noise...these are all things that definetly SHOULD NOT happen to model in the >500 $ price range (not even >300 $ range)! These new BLI Hybrids look very good, but their technique is definetly cheap chinese work. I spoke with some German modelers about these BLI engines, and they all share the same view: they are just beautiful to look at, but a disappointment to operate/function. Although the T&P I-1a is by far my favorite US steamer along with the SP GS-4 and although I waited so long for a modern model of it featuring sound, smoke, lights and DCC, I am still very cautious/reserved to purchase one once its out, because I must have the confirmation and proof that it runs absolutely reliably and has no issues, because in THAT price range I can´t accept any issues. The drama with all those super expensive new models by BLI or MTH nowadays is that they have very cheap technique and construction inside, which is not visible from the outside. So if you´re looking for a reliable model which will operate successfully a lifetime long, better purchase some 60s/70s/80s brass models (especially those built in Japan) and install DCC decoders by German producers inside them. Then you will really have something to enjoy! Example: I once owned a Kumata/LMB T&P I-1 from 1958! When I purchased it, this model was already more than 50 years old but ran perfectly! It had a German ESU decoder installed with headlight, cab light, smoke unit and sound. It was such a delight to run it. I just sold it off because it couldn´t get through my curves (minimum radius issue). Otherwise I would have kept it of course. You can bet that this 1958 brass model will still run very well in 50 years ahead if properly taken care of, while those MTH and BLI models surely won´t! They just don´t do them anymore like they used to do, and still nothing beats handmade quality work from the good old days that was made to last!
If you go to just the regular classic brass for sale section of brasstrains.com website, right now there are a few Texas & Pacific models that have come in for sale, all in varying shades of green "Russian Iron". You do not have to open an account (give them your email address) to see what these models look like. Some of these models undoubtedly are available for purchase because BLI's 2-10-4 is due very soon...
In particular, the Precision Scale T&P 4-8-2 has a beautiful very light green paint job on it. The box label clearly indicates it to be "Russian Iron". The model is #4 of 11 produced in 2011, and is likely still for sale at the current price because it does not have an elesco feedwater heater while most T&P fans consider elesco fwh to be "essential". (Not me, they used both coffin and worthington fwh's as well as elesco).
If BLI chooses to do the very light green "Russian Iron" on their model, it looks like that will be pretty close to some of the brass models out there.
Great Northern "Glacier Green" is not supposed to be close to Russian Iron at all, but a completely different shade.
I've tried researching "Russian Iron," there's several websites on the subject and none seem to agree on what the surface color was or should be. Opinions varied from a light grey to a metallic blue, one site even said there was a brownish look to some of it.
Erie K1 Pacifics in color photographs from the late 40's through the early 50's all seem to have the metallic blue look.
The other interesting thing about "Russian Iron" is the process was developed by the Russians in the 19th Century and involved fusing graphite to the surface of sheet iron to inhibit corrosion, AND the Russians never said how they did it, no fools they, now the process is a mystery to this day.
There was a restoration of a 4-4-0 at the Henry Ford Museum in Greenfield Village, Michigan that was completed last year, a nice job. The restorers wanted a "Russian Iron" look to the boiler, but not having any access to the real stuff they applied a metallic blue paint. Looks GOOD, at any rate.
T&P paint chart specifically lists Charles R Long # 162 light russia as the boiler paint and also the sheet metal on the cylinders, air pumps and elesco feedwater pump. The picture of 630 is a copy of my picture. The engine is so filthy that you can not even see the oxide red cab roof. But,, look at the middle of the feedwater heater bundle. It has the light russia paint (although dirty) on it, one of only two 2-10-4's to ever get it and look closely at the boiler and you will see some greenish gray peeking through the filth.. I have color pictures of 2-10-4's, 4-8-2's and 2-10-2 engines all with light russia paint. When new the paint definately had a bluish gray green color. In just a few months the bluish part faded out leaving the gray green prominent. The picture of 638 in this posting is a couple of years after 638 had been placed on display and has faded to almost light gray. In about 2 more years it would turn white. The picture of 610 with a gray boiler is because a TCU sororiety painted the engine gray thinking that was the right color since the paint had already turned grayish-white at that time.
The paint was terribly bad about fading. Kerosine and steam washes would at times give it a little brownish look. You could line up 10 of the engines and the color would vary on all of them due to when they were last painted. But, NONE OF THEM WAS EVER PAINTED BLACK.
The boiler color of the Glacier Park models came from a paint chip that obviously was not new paint. The color of the boilers on PSC 4-8-2 and the Broadway-Ltd boilers is just slightly different but certainly acceptable considering the aging this paint went through.
Tom Stamey
According to the history sheet provided with the Key Imports/Samhongsa (1981) 2-8-2 model "T&P #800", all 11 of the USRA light 2-8-2's were rebuilt with roller bearings on the drivers during 1936, and they subsequently ran as fast as 60-mph in fast freight service while riding "like greyhounds". According to the history sheet, they were painted into the exact same Russia Iron paint scheme, with the red cab roof, nickel plated valve covers and stack, and polished valve gear as the 4-8-2's had received, even though these 2-8-2's were primarily used in freight service.
As rebuilt, with Elesco fwh, these engines were class H-2R. They were leased to Kansas City Southern during WWII, and all 11 lasted "till the end of steam" on T&P.
Key's model was imported unpainted, so far as I know.
John Mock
The drawings of the T&P P-1-b class 4-6-2 in the Feb. 1997 MR have an accompanying article by George Sebastian Coleman, in which he states that the P-1-b boiler jackets "were painted with Gray Jacket Enamel in imitation of Russia-iron sheathing of nineteenth- and early twentieth century engines. Like Russia iron itself the actual color of T&P's boilers has been the subject of some debate. Dexcriptions of the color refer to it as a dark olive green or gray green or simply a dark gray."
So again the color was a simulation of Russia iron, not necessarily the exact same color. As for Russia iron for some years in the 1960s, Model Railroader's standard advice was to use Volkswagon Polar Silver paint. One photos of a VW "bug" I found on the internet in polar siver shows a gray which indeed does seem to have a brownish gray green tint to it. I am reminded of the color of the Japanese beetles that attack my basil and eggplant.
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/360952.jpg
But another has a vague bluish tint
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/402581031_0421acff06.jpg
As always remember that most of us view our models under flourescent lighting which does all sorts of things to colors.
Dave Nelson
If one looks on the brasstrains.com website right now, under T&P, there are several different painted examples that vary in color.
@tomstamey:
Hope you don´t mind that I used your picture of 630. But can you tell me what year it was taken? Would like to know that as it is still the only color photo of a T&P Texas in regular service I have/know. I´m known for having very good eyes, but I´m sorry to tell you that I simply can´t recognize any oxide on the roof or any greenish gray anywhere. In my eyes it´s definetly black mixed with filth. But I believe you as you surely saw the engine steaming past you, so could probably examine it much closer than it is the case with such a small picture. Anway thanks for the interesting background information about that 638 picture and 610 picture. By the way: I know two of the nine upgraded Texans equipped with boxpock drivers and delta trailing trucks were regularily assigned to pull the Sunshine Special between Texarkana and Longview. Just imagine if T&P had painted them in the Eagle scheme like they did it with some of the Mountains! A blue and white Texas would have surely looked splendid!