Appreciate some help on these questions:
Aside from the obvious old wooden boxcars with ice block doors on top, what was the year obvious visible construction changes on the boxcars took place?
When was the cut off year that 40 foot boxcars were declared obsolete to be used on railroads, and 50 footers took over?
Was there a transition period of years allowed betwee the 2 sizes by regulation where 40 footers were used for a temporary time period?
The "Z" (sort of), shaped runner board on top was removed in what year approximately? Some 40 footers have them and some don't? Some 50 footers have them and some don't?
Big Boy Forever Aside from the obvious old wooden boxcars with ice block doors on top, what was the year obvious visible construction changes on the boxcars took place?
The answer to this question is a textbook about 2" thick. Maybe you could narrow your questions down to a certain type or era of car.
Boxcars with "ice block doors" aren't boxcars, they are refrigerator cars or "reefers". A totally different type of cars.
Never. There was no 'declaration " that they were obsolete. Some 40 foot cars still exist. 50 ft cars date back to the 1890's. They became more common in the 1930's when autos and auto parts bgan to be shipped by rail They became the predominate type of boxcar in the 1960's and now 60 ft cars are starting to supplant them.
Irrelevant question, there never were ANY regulations that banned 40 ft cars. If you wanted to build 40 ft cars today you could, its just that 50-60 ft cars are more economical.
Its not Z shaped. Wooden roofwalks since about 1910 have been three 6 inch wide boards of 18" wide. Metal roofwalks are generally slotted or punched metal in a channel crossection, with the flanges down, about 18' wide. Roofwalks were eliminated in the late 1960's and early 1970's.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Trinity Rail has 40 foot boxcars on its website.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
dehusman Big Boy Forever Aside from the obvious old wooden boxcars with ice block doors on top, what was the year obvious visible construction changes on the boxcars took place? I'm trying to determine "era", that's why I'm asking the questions and I can't narrow my questions down unless I know the precise and exact context of the information according to the 2 inch thick book. I'm asking the questions the best I can according to what I know, which is obviously lacking. Old ice block cars look like antique box cars, although they are obviously for refrigeration using ice. When was the cut off year that 40 foot boxcars were declared obsolete to be used on railroads, and 50 footers took over? "Never. There was no 'declaration " that they were obsolete. Some 40 foot cars still exist. 50 ft cars date back to the 1890's. They became more common in the 1930's when autos and auto parts bgan to be shipped by rail They became the predominate type of boxcar in the 1960's and now 60 ft cars are starting to supplant them." Was there a transition period of years allowed betwee the 2 sizes by regulation where 40 footers were used for a temporary time period?plant them. "Irrelevant question, there never were ANY regulations that banned 40 ft cars. If you wanted to build 40 ft cars today you could, its just that 50-60 ft cars are more economical." Still studying the "era" variables on rolling stock. From what others had said about 40 footers being passe', for the late 20th century, I assumed there was some regulation making them obsolete in conjunction with other regulations, like the "40 year rule" governing rolling stock. My mistake; I should have said also, "in the late 20th century". 60 footers aside, you are saying that 50 footers dominate boxcar use in the late 20th century because they are just more economical, BUT 40 footers still are used here and there? I'm just asking these questions to categorize my HO boxcars for appropriate era useage. The "Z" (sort of), shaped runner board on top was removed in what year approximately? Some 40 footers have them and some don't? Some 50 footers have them and some don't? "Its not Z shaped. Wooden roofwalks since about 1910 have been three 6 inch wide boards of 18" wide. Metal roofwalks are generally slotted or punched metal in a channel crossection, with the flanges down, about 18' wide. Roofwalks were eliminated in the late 1960's and early 1970's." "Z" is the closest shape I have on my computer keyboard. The angled line is no doubt straight on the roofwalk, that's why I qualified the description with "(sort of)". OK, so they all were eliminated in the 60s and early 70s. That answers my question, thanks.
I'm trying to determine "era", that's why I'm asking the questions and I can't narrow my questions down unless I know the precise and exact context of the information according to the 2 inch thick book. I'm asking the questions the best I can according to what I know, which is obviously lacking.
Old ice block cars look like antique box cars, although they are obviously for refrigeration using ice.
When was the cut off year that 40 foot boxcars were declared obsolete to be used on railroads, and 50 footers took over? "Never. There was no 'declaration " that they were obsolete. Some 40 foot cars still exist. 50 ft cars date back to the 1890's. They became more common in the 1930's when autos and auto parts bgan to be shipped by rail They became the predominate type of boxcar in the 1960's and now 60 ft cars are starting to supplant them." Was there a transition period of years allowed betwee the 2 sizes by regulation where 40 footers were used for a temporary time period?plant them. "Irrelevant question, there never were ANY regulations that banned 40 ft cars. If you wanted to build 40 ft cars today you could, its just that 50-60 ft cars are more economical." Still studying the "era" variables on rolling stock. From what others had said about 40 footers being passe', for the late 20th century, I assumed there was some regulation making them obsolete in conjunction with other regulations, like the "40 year rule" governing rolling stock. My mistake; I should have said also, "in the late 20th century". 60 footers aside, you are saying that 50 footers dominate boxcar use in the late 20th century because they are just more economical, BUT 40 footers still are used here and there? I'm just asking these questions to categorize my HO boxcars for appropriate era useage.
"Never. There was no 'declaration " that they were obsolete. Some 40 foot cars still exist. 50 ft cars date back to the 1890's. They became more common in the 1930's when autos and auto parts bgan to be shipped by rail They became the predominate type of boxcar in the 1960's and now 60 ft cars are starting to supplant them."
Was there a transition period of years allowed betwee the 2 sizes by regulation where 40 footers were used for a temporary time period?plant them.
"Irrelevant question, there never were ANY regulations that banned 40 ft cars. If you wanted to build 40 ft cars today you could, its just that 50-60 ft cars are more economical."
Still studying the "era" variables on rolling stock. From what others had said about 40 footers being passe', for the late 20th century, I assumed there was some regulation making them obsolete in conjunction with other regulations, like the "40 year rule" governing rolling stock. My mistake; I should have said also, "in the late 20th century".
60 footers aside, you are saying that 50 footers dominate boxcar use in the late 20th century because they are just more economical, BUT 40 footers still are used here and there?
I'm just asking these questions to categorize my HO boxcars for appropriate era useage.
"Its not Z shaped. Wooden roofwalks since about 1910 have been three 6 inch wide boards of 18" wide. Metal roofwalks are generally slotted or punched metal in a channel crossection, with the flanges down, about 18' wide. Roofwalks were eliminated in the late 1960's and early 1970's."
"Z" is the closest shape I have on my computer keyboard. The angled line is no doubt straight on the roofwalk, that's why I qualified the description with "(sort of)". OK, so they all were eliminated in the 60s and early 70s. That answers my question, thanks.
ericsp Trinity Rail has 40 foot boxcars on its website.
Great info., thanks.
Do you know how many other companies manufacture RR cars in the USA?
Looking at their other product, "tank cars", pictures I've found on other photo websites also looks like the hand rail opening for the crewman is off center on newer tank cars, while in older tank cars the opening is centered.
Big Boy ForeverThe "Z" (sort of), shaped runner board on top was removed in what year approximately? Some 40 footers have them and some don't? Some 50 footers have them and some don't?
This has been explained multiple times in other posts, including my response to one of your previous threads here http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/231994.aspx?page=4 . Safety applicances are covered by federal regulation, and the dates and types of applicances, plus applicable dates for use, are specified. To quote from that thread:
wp8thsubYou asked about dates for running boards on house cars. For gee-whiz purposes here's the regulation on safety appliances http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/231.27 . Basically a house car (boxcar, reefer) delivered after 10/1/1966 was to have no running board, four-rung ladders, and a low-mounted brake wheel. Existing cars were to be modified with the running board removed, A end ladders shortened to four rungs, and an L-shaped grab on the roof at the B end replacing the grab that was originally on the running board (if the brakewheel and ladders on the B end remained at their original height [most roads did not lower the brakewheel or B end ladders]). A yellow label stating "keep off roof no running board" was to be placed on the side of the car adjacent to the B end ladders (decals are available for this). The initial date set for older cars to be in compliance was in 1974, but that proved unattainable so it was extended to 1983. Having a few cars with pre-1966 safety appliances is fine during this timeframe, but they'll look out of place later. I posted photos earlier of what a modified older car looks like.
This is an early 60s style car with the safety applicances modified per the above regulation. The running board supports remain visible on the roof.
This is a later car built after the regulation changed. It has the same basic carbody but ladders at all four corners (some cars built with ladders all around did have running boards). There are no running board support brackets along the centerline of the roof.
This car represents one that survived into at least 1978 (as evidenced by the yellow-dot inspection symbol) while retaining its running board. Such cars did exist, especially among those the railroads were planning to scrap prior the the 1983 deadline.
Rob Spangler
Big Boy ForeverDo you know how many other companies manufacture RR cars in the USA?
A link to a site covering some of this info was likewise provided in a previous response to one of your threads http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/231994.aspx?page=4 . Spotting fetures and other info on modern railcar manufacturers can be found here http://www.fcix.info/ref.htm .
Big Boy Forever Old ice block cars look like antique box cars, although they are obviously for refrigeration using ice.
Still studying the "era" variables on rolling stock. From what others had said about 40 footers being passe', for the late 20th century, I assumed there was some regulation making them obsolete in conjunction with other regulations, like the "40 year rule" governing rolling stock. My mistake; I should have said also, "in the late 20th century". 60 footers aside, you are saying that 50 footers dominate boxcar use in the late 20th century because they are just more economical, BUT 40 footers still are used here and there? I'm just asking these questions to categorize my HO boxcars for appropriate era useage.
Look on the side of the boxcar, there will be a "BLT" or "NEW" date. If that is more than 40 years from the date of your era then its a no go.
Currently the major manufacturers are American Railcar Industries, Freightcar America, Greenbrier/Gunderson, and National Steel Car. The smaller manufacturers I know about are Kasgro Rail (speciality flatcars) and Texana Tank Car and Manufacturering.
ACF Industries (formerly American Car and Foundry) used to make cars. The last I heard they only make components. They seem to be affiliated with ARI.
There are also numerous manufacturers that have been bought out, gone out of business, or do not manufacture railcars anymore.
"Depends on how general you want to be. If you don't know the difference between boxcars and reefers then I would suggest you do some basic Google research to get the general idea."
I know the difference between a boxcar and a refer.
The older antique cars were not as differentiated as the newer ones.
wp8thsub Big Boy Forever The "Z" (sort of), shaped runner board on top was removed in what year approximately? Some 40 footers have them and some don't? Some 50 footers have them and some don't? This has been explained multiple times in other posts, including my response to one of your previous threads here http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/231994.aspx?page=4 . Safety applicances are covered by federal regulation, and the dates and types of applicances, plus applicable dates for use, are specified. To quote from that thread: wp8thsub You asked about dates for running boards on house cars. For gee-whiz purposes here's the regulation on safety appliances http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/231.27 . Basically a house car (boxcar, reefer) delivered after 10/1/1966 was to have no running board, four-rung ladders, and a low-mounted brake wheel. Existing cars were to be modified with the running board removed, A end ladders shortened to four rungs, and an L-shaped grab on the roof at the B end replacing the grab that was originally on the running board (if the brakewheel and ladders on the B end remained at their original height [most roads did not lower the brakewheel or B end ladders]). A yellow label stating "keep off roof no running board" was to be placed on the side of the car adjacent to the B end ladders (decals are available for this). The initial date set for older cars to be in compliance was in 1974, but that proved unattainable so it was extended to 1983. Having a few cars with pre-1966 safety appliances is fine during this timeframe, but they'll look out of place later. I posted photos earlier of what a modified older car looks like. This is an early 60s style car with the safety applicances modified per the above regulation. The running board supports remain visible on the roof. This is a later car built after the regulation changed. It has the same basic carbody but ladders at all four corners (some cars built with ladders all around did have running boards). There are no running board support brackets along the centerline of the roof. This car represents one that survived into at least 1978 (as evidenced by the yellow-dot inspection symbol) while retaining its running board. Such cars did exist, especially among those the railroads were planning to scrap prior the the 1983 deadline.
Big Boy Forever The "Z" (sort of), shaped runner board on top was removed in what year approximately? Some 40 footers have them and some don't? Some 50 footers have them and some don't?
wp8thsub You asked about dates for running boards on house cars. For gee-whiz purposes here's the regulation on safety appliances http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/231.27 . Basically a house car (boxcar, reefer) delivered after 10/1/1966 was to have no running board, four-rung ladders, and a low-mounted brake wheel. Existing cars were to be modified with the running board removed, A end ladders shortened to four rungs, and an L-shaped grab on the roof at the B end replacing the grab that was originally on the running board (if the brakewheel and ladders on the B end remained at their original height [most roads did not lower the brakewheel or B end ladders]). A yellow label stating "keep off roof no running board" was to be placed on the side of the car adjacent to the B end ladders (decals are available for this). The initial date set for older cars to be in compliance was in 1974, but that proved unattainable so it was extended to 1983. Having a few cars with pre-1966 safety appliances is fine during this timeframe, but they'll look out of place later. I posted photos earlier of what a modified older car looks like.
Thanks again.
Hard to keep track of all the posts and information, and ALSO threads quickly disappear as new threads are created.
I have a lot of 40 and 50 foot boxcars with running boards. Looks like I'm limited to the late 70's or very early 80's at best, according to what cars I have now. I was hoping to go 90s to current, but ain't happening unless I put out a wad of cash for a new fleet of rolling stock.
I remember seeing a line of these coming out of the Trinity plant in Butler in the mid-90s, right before they shut down the paint shop there. They were a medium gray, like SP's gray. No idea who they were for. Given that they're somwhere in the neighborhood of 20 years old now, I'd imagine they're out there somewhere, but can't find a mention of them.
The last 40s I can think of where the Canadian grain boxcars that soldiered well into the 90s and the handful of BN hide cars that made it into the early 90s.
Cemex is the only customer I know of. Its 40' boxcars are medium gray.
I think the Rock Island got its last batch of 40' conventional boxcars in 1965 -- there cannot have been too many built after that. The C&NW acquired many of them when the Rock went belly up and I assume they were used in grain service on lines that were too rickety (or serviced grain elevators that were too small) to receive the larger covered hoppers that inherited the grain business. I was still seeing C&NW and Rock Island 40' boxcars into the early 1990s although they were becoming scarce by the late 1980s, particularly those with 6 foot doors.
The mid to late 1960s also saw some 40' "hi-cube" boxcars that Athearn offered and may still offer.
Dave Nelson
Southern Pacific bought 700 40', 100 ton boxcars in the 1970s for hauling copper. I used to see one occasionally, but I have not seen any in a while.
B-100-32
B-100-34
B-100-41
Big Boy Forever The older antique cars were not as differentiated as the newer ones.
Big Boy Forever I know the difference between a boxcar and a refer. The older antique cars were not as differentiated as the newer ones.
Big Boy Forever I have a lot of 40 and 50 foot boxcars with running boards. Looks like I'm limited to the late 70's or very early 80's at best, according to what cars I have now. I was hoping to go 90s to current, but ain't happening unless I put out a wad of cash for a new fleet of rolling stock.
Do like the real railroads did in the 60's-70's and remove the running boards!! It was very common to see cars that clearly had once had running boards - still showing the supports for the running boards etc. on the roof. Just fill in the holes with Squadron Green putty and carefully sand it smooth, and touch up the paint.
wjstix Big Boy Forever I have a lot of 40 and 50 foot boxcars with running boards. Looks like I'm limited to the late 70's or very early 80's at best, according to what cars I have now. I was hoping to go 90s to current, but ain't happening unless I put out a wad of cash for a new fleet of rolling stock. Do like the real railroads did in the 60's-70's and remove the running boards!! It was very common to see cars that clearly had once had running boards - still showing the supports for the running boards etc. on the roof. Just fill in the holes with Squadron Green putty and carefully sand it smooth, and touch up the paint.
Thanks for the interesting information.
If I did what you say, how far would that bring me up in decades as the real railroads practice of the same running board removal?
"The older cars were not as differentiated as the newer ones."
Just what, exactly, do you mean? Have you looked --- really looked --- at these older cars that are supposed to be so similar to one another? Your punishment is to copy (long hand) one page from the PRR listings in a 1948 O.R.E.R. Any one page. Then copy one page from the NYC listings. Then come back a few hours later when you've finished, and tell us all about how similar those freight cars are.
Tom
Big Boy Forever wjstix Big Boy Forever I have a lot of 40 and 50 foot boxcars with running boards. Looks like I'm limited to the late 70's or very early 80's at best, according to what cars I have now. I was hoping to go 90s to current, but ain't happening unless I put out a wad of cash for a new fleet of rolling stock. Do like the real railroads did in the 60's-70's and remove the running boards!! It was very common to see cars that clearly had once had running boards - still showing the supports for the running boards etc. on the roof. Just fill in the holes with Squadron Green putty and carefully sand it smooth, and touch up the paint. Thanks for the interesting information. If I did what you say, how far would that bring me up in decades as the real railroads practice of the same running board removal?
Well, new cars started being built without running boards in the mid-late sixties, so a car built in the early sixties could have been built with running boards and have had them removed in the seventies. I think freight cars can go like 40 years before they have to be rebuilt in order to continue in interchange service, so that would take you at least into the early part of this century.
Big Boy Forever wjstix Do like the real railroads did in the 60's-70's and remove the running boards!! If I did what you say, how far would that bring me up in decades as the real railroads practice of the same running board removal?
wjstix
Do like the real railroads did in the 60's-70's and remove the running boards!!
It wouldn't change much. As I noted earlier, the deadline for removal of running boards and lowering A end ladders (among the other smaller changes required) was moved back to 1983. A car modified per the regulation was subject to the normal 40-year rule unless given a Rule 88 rebuild (as all applicable cars were built prior to 1974). There were very few un-modified stragglers after 1983 outside of captive service (non-interchange) cars, and even many of those were modified too.
In additon to 50' automobile box cars in the steam era, there were also 50' box cars for lumber. I seem to recall that the Great Norhern had some single sheath, wood cars of this length.
Victor A. Baird
www.erstwhilepublications.com
I have nothing to add, other then this has been a very interesting posting.
I new most of the answers , but it was fun to read it all.
Hopefully there are others reading this who will be helped in their selection of era and cars.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
The industry term for "roofwalk" is "running boards". The term "roofwalk" is nowwhere to be found in any of the Car Builders Encyclopedias.
Thecitrusbelt The industry term for "roofwalk" is "running boards". The term "roofwalk" is nowwhere to be found in any of the Car Builders Encyclopedias.
Most of us in the forums here aren't working in the "industry" and won't get demerits for using "slang" vs. offical terms. I think we all knew what was being talked about.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 Thecitrusbelt The industry term for "roofwalk" is "running boards". The term "roofwalk" is nowwhere to be found in any of the Car Builders Encyclopedias. Most of us in the forums here aren't working in the "industry" and won't get demerits for using "slang" vs. offical terms. I think we all knew what was being talked about.
When I was a student brakeman on the PRR I was told by a conductor any time I had to stand on a roof walk to stand at least 15' from the end of the car and stand with my feet braced in case there is sudden slack action.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Up untill the 1980's as long as not in interchange service and having currant safety gear, any car ever built that was in good shape could run and make a living. Roofwalks and high brake gear was not ordered to be removed untill 1974. Someone reported that they saw one still in 1993, note only one, guess that one got by.
rrebell Up untill the 1980's as long as not in interchange service and having currant safety gear, any car ever built that was in good shape could run and make a living. Roofwalks and high brake gear was not ordered to be removed untill 1974. Someone reported that they saw one still in 1993, note only one, guess that one got by.
I know CP or CN had a 40 footer with high brakewheels as late as '83. IIRC that was the last boxcar I had to climb in order to set the handbrake. My brakeman's job was about 9 months away from ending.
rrebellRoofwalks and high brake gear was not ordered to be removed untill 1974. Someone reported that they saw one still in 1993, note only one, guess that one got by.
The safety appliance regulations never required lowering of brakewheels and shortening of B end ladders on existing cars. A house car was in compliance if the running board was removed, the A end ladders were shortened to four rungs, a corner grab was added to the roof above the B end (if the high ladders remained), a label was placed adjacent to the B end side ladder stating "keep off roof no running board," and the required grabs were placed on the car end. The high mount brake wheel and full height ladders could remain on the car indefinitely. Cars with such safety appliances were not uncommon into the 1990s, and even the early 2000s. They typically retained the same B end configuration until retired. Some cars did receive lowered B end ladders and brakewheels, but they were far outnumbered by those that didn't.
The initial date set for achieving compliance with the above was 1974. When that proved impractical, it was extended to 1983. Some examples of unmodified pre-1966 cars could still be found after that. I posted a link to the applicable regulations earlier in the thread. Here it is again http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/231.27 .
To illustrate, I checked of photos of surviving WP cars because I knew I could quickly find some that fit the bill. All of these are from http://rr-fallenflags.org/wp/wp.html .
1992
1997. Note the roof grab and yellow label behind the side ladder.
1998
Cars from other roads had similar longevity.