RDC passenger consists

[Anonymous]

spud or not here in Australia the Bug as we call them are a common device to power railcars but after talking to mates they say that such things are quite unreliable and are not designed to put much power out in fact to power such a heavy and large car as a metroliner they might be a waste of money

[AntonioFP45]

21xFan! Regarding interior lighting:

Good news! [:)][:D][8D][;)][(-D][tup][^]

A close friend of mine in the computer industry just pointed me to this place.

www.RichmondControls.com

Looks like this takes care of our lighting problems for RDCs, Passenger Cars, Cabooses as well as locomotives>DC or DCC![;)][8D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Not sure if this will work for your repowering needs but I kitbash 'gas electrics' using modified Spectrum heavyweight pass. cars powered by power trucks from the Spectrum GE 44 tonner diesels. The 44 tonners have two powered 4 wheel trucks each with a separate motor and drive connected thru a printed circuit board for providing power to the lights in the unit. I'm not sure of anything else? the circuit board is used for. . . These power trucks are VERY compact-the motor sits directly over the truck and the drive gears are directly connected to the motor shaft. Consequently, they are easy to conceal in a car body, at least in a 'combination' type car I use for my application. Although one could power both trucks in a particular car by connecting jumpers between the trucks and the circuit board (due to the much longer wheelbase of the new application, I have found that one power truck works just fine and will pull two typical 'gas electric' trailers up a 2% grade provided that only minimal extra weight is added to all three units. I run jumpers to the rear truck of the 'gas electric' powered unit and employ wipers to metal axles (insulated side to side) with metal wheels for eight wheel pickup. I've also used a thin brass shim-like arrangement behind the side frames of the rear truck to pickup power. For all trucks, other than the powered truck, I use slightly modified MDC Roundhouse 4 wheel pullman trucks-should be still available. The same trucks' sideframes are easily installed on the GE 44 tonner trucks. A similar swap may work for your application. As a side note, with only one truck powered, my gas electrics perform very protypically-they're a liitle underpowered!

[LIRR1926]

While I've not seen any pictures there are several in print references to the Long Island pulling an unpowered car with their RDCs. The RDC-2 they obtained in 1955 is reported as pulling a P-54 ping pong commuter coach in East Ender service on weekends. One source says that after the RDC-1 and 2 were being used as the Patchogue scoot the two of them pulled a BM-60 to provide an RPO.
David

[AntonioFP45]

Bill Matthewson

Thank you for the tip on the GE 44tonner as I've been considering the SPUD.
Question: Does your modified Gas Electric run smoothly and quietly? Does the gear ratio of the truck motor allow passenger train speeds? I would like to be able to run the Metroliners at 90 scale mph ( the prototypes ran at 100+ mph ).

LIRR,

Thanks! I wonder if LIRR or Budd either modified the RDC-2 or just didn't worry about the warranty clause and pulled the trailer anyway. As a contributor stated earlier, RDC's came factory equipped with transmissions not designed for pulling as the emphasis from Budd was "quick acceleration, but I'm willing to bet that this component easily be replaced or modified with something tougher. Was done frequently on GM transit bus coaches.

To the good guys from page one of this thread, thanks again for your tips and input! Good to know that there are plenty of Electric and Diesel MU train fans on the forum! Keep posting, everything has been very helpful! [:D][^][8)][swg][swg]

[Anonymous]

Oddly, I was just reading about one railroad's problems with this--

The Minneapolis & St. Louis bought 2 RDC4's in early 1957. They used them to tow a boxcar carrying storage mail and express, despite Budd's instructions. The engines and torque converters broke down frequently. Budd blamed the M&StL, the M&StL blamed Budd, and the M&StL traded the RDC's to the C&O within 18 months.

(Source: MINNEAPOLIS & ST. LOUIS IN COLOR (Morning Sun, 1996) by Gene Green, p.123.)

Just another bit o' info for you....

[Anonymous]

Yes, my gas electrics utilizing the Spectrum GE 44 tonner drive works very smoothly and quiet;ly, I am without layout at this time and its been sometime since I've operated these gas electric conversions; best recollection is that they have more of a scale top speed of a typical gas electric (or a GE 44 tonner, since I haven't changed the wheel diameter or gearing) - that is probably more like 50 - 60 scale mph. Question: do you really need to operate at 90 scale mph? FYI -the same power trucks are used under the GE 70 tonner diesel and you may want to check out the Spectrum 'EMD gas electrics' for a possible drive train alternative: I believe that Bachmann used a very similar drive (single motor/8 wheel elec pickup) that they used on the previosly mentioned GE diesels. They are usually available for approx $15-$20 from Trainworld, one of the best mail order advertisers in MR, based on my experience. Good luck--

[AntonioFP45]

BillMatthewson,

Thank you!

I'm currently without a layout but am repairing/upgrading my HO locomotive fleet. It will be DCC with most units receiving sound decoders. I would like my Metroliners to be able to run at least 70 scale mph as high speeds on a layout can look unrealistic, even with high speed trains. I'll look into the Gas Electric. I don't know the normal retail price but if it's over $30, I'll definitely check out Train World.

Thanks again!

[swg][C):-)][:)][:)][8D][:D][^][8)][:P]

[Anonymous]

This is a fol low up to my suggestion re: using Spectrum GE 44 or 70 tonner diesel power trucks for repowering/kitbashing - According to another forum post (ref: Gen'l Discussion-Model Railroader--"Spectrums On Fire" last posted 06 Mar 2004), Bachmann apparantly made a change from two motored units to a single (larger?) motor with production model #80034 and above. I haven't verified this since all of my units are approx. 10 years old and have been in storage most of that time. I personally haven't experienced any trouble with mine, although they haven't been run very much. According to the other forum input, a few modelers had some "issues" with theirs.

[AntonioFP45]

Thank you guys for your suggestions![;)][8D][:D]

Thought I'd let you all know that if you go to www.Railfan.net Leave the categories alone and look towards the bottom where it says "key word". Type in Metroliner and 3 pages of excellent shots pop up. The "Mets" are In Penn Central and Amtrak schemes.

Do the same steps and Type in RDC and you'll get 8 pages, though there are diesel and steam locos mixed in. What surprised me is that on one of the pages there is a NEW HAVEN RDC apparently still in the McGinnis paint scheme (or perhaps it was restored) ! That photo is dated 2003.

Write back with your opinions! [;)][:D][:p][:)][^]

Happy Railroading, indeed!

[Anonymous]

All this discussion re: RDCs has given me the urge to buy more motive power I don.t need but now want. The Proto 1000 units are extremely well done like all Proto 1000 and 2000 offerings. Remember how awful Life Like (and Bachmann before Spectrum) used to be, with but a few exceptions? I still have a couple of Athearn RDCs which were actually quite a bit shorter than prototype; the Proto 1000 units are correct length. The Athearn RDCs always 'relied'?!? on the old rubber band drive train - a holdover from the Globe products (pre-Athearn blue box days) Come to think about it, the rubber band drive probably replicated the prototype's unreliable and somewhat jerky operation! I've converted mine to the Earnst (sp?) gear drive conversion but really can't say that I ever got them sorted out. Having been on New Haven RDC's as a kid in Conn., I've always had a fondness for them but had been frustrated by the lack of a decent model until recently. Where can I get a roster of which roads bought RDCs new and when were the first units delivered? Were any 'demo' paint scheme(s) used by EMD like they did on their diesels when 'loaned' to prospective purchasers? I am modeling the L&N and am unaware that they owned any, but it could be rationalized that they tried out a demo unit or three. . .Did the NC&StL-owned by the L&N have any?

[AntonioFP45]

Bill,

I don't have to much info on RDCs. Book: The Budd Rail Diesel Car by Donald Duke. Expensive but it's available at Amazon.Com Not sure about the price.

You can e-mail Model Railroader Magazine and see if the staff have any archived info on RDCs. Jeff Wilson (I think) mailed me info on the Metroliners about 10 years ago. I've always been appreciative of it.

Hope this helps! [:D][8D][8)][:)][(-D]

[ndbprr]

yes there was a demo unit (or more). They had BUDD in the letterboard. I have a Budd brochure touting the RDC from sometime between 1950 and 1953 called RDC comes of age. It has a mimeographed list of who the origninal buyers to that time were. The big buyer was the PRSL with 12 as I remember. It also has pictures of units in service. The best shot is of a WP RDC on a curve that is unidentified but it looks totaly inhospitable. It also has acceleration and decelleration curves for different numbers of cars and floor plans. I've tried to sell copies of it at train shows and no one was interested so I just hang on to the original.

[Anonymous]

AntonioFP45 & ndbprr, Thanks for the info. re: Budd demo units- what style of lettering did Budd use (.eg. RR Roman or? or?) and did Budd have any unique markings, paint bands along window, safety stripes at one or both ends, 'Budd' logo/corporate stuff on carbody, any road #s, were they RDC1, 2, 3,or? etc. I truly expect you to say "why don't you buy a reprint of the Budd brochure! Seriously this info would let those modeling roads that didn't own RDCs to fudge a bit and at least sorta legitimately run some RDCs as demos even if they didn't buy them (or bought them later on, or second or third hand in a later year than one is modeling). We all thank you!

[Anonymous]

RE: painting of Budd RDC1 demo unit:
In response to your post, I am looking at several ads touting various aspects of the RDC, published in Railway Age in 1950, just after the RDC1 demonstrator made its "national tour" in 1949 (there's a map published on one of the ads). These appear to be unretouched photos that show the demonstrator from various angles. The demonstrator has the Budd corporate logo, in two colors on the letterboard centered under the roof blister assembly and extending 1 window on either side of the engine exhaust gap, with the line extending approx. 1-1/4 windows on either side of the gap (Logo--letters dark blue with a bright red horizontal line running through them. To see this in color, check out just about any National Geographic from the same period as Budd advertised its psgr eqpt in almost every issue, in color ) . The car is numbered "1950" white on dark in the upper side lighted number boards (one at each end) and "1950" is also shown painted on the center number plate (centered under the window gap) in what appears to be standard Roman dark color-probably matched the logo. Everything else is plain stainless--no embellishments.

Incidentally, FYI here are some of the claims they made: RDC1 demo that made the tour configured to seat 90. On 1st suburban demo trip on CNW arrived in CHI with 170 pax (what a sardine can). At full load 83 mph max level; 62 mph max 1%; 42 mph max 2%, 28 mph max 3%. Acceleration 0-44 mph in 60 sec, 0-57 mph in 1 mile. Stop from 70 mph in 1254 ft. Claimed "lowest cost/pax operation of any form of mass transportation in this country"--wouldn't you love to see how they cooked that number--ain't hyperbole great? Price FOB Philly $128,750 for the RDC1. RDC2: 17'-1" bag compartment, seats 71 pax, price FOB Philly $127,800 (950 bucks less, plus the car has a trunk--such a deal for you!). 1st 2 buyers advertised to be WP (1 RDC2 ultimately named "Zephyrette") and CNW (2 RDC1 & 1 RDC2).

Oh by the way, since you truly expect someone to say it, why don't you buy a reprint of the Budd brochure (that's tacky, I know, but why disappoint someone with so sincere a wish.....). Seriously, I hope this info helps. Maybe someone has an old color slide they might want to post. If I had one, I'd be glad to, but I don't.

Hey ndbprr, if you can't sell the brochure due to lack of interest, sounds like you have an audience here. Why don't you consider scanning and posting parts of it here (I, for one, in the true spirit of engineering geekdom, would enjoy seeing the curves) because these other guys sound like they could sure use the modeling related info.

To start the ball rolling, if someone will let me know how to paste a jpg on this thing, I'll be happy to post the map and a fairly good B&W photo of the demo from a wheel bearing ad in 1950.[?]

Best Regards.

[Eddystone]

About RDC's towing other cars. I had a RDC calender about 10 years ago, in one of the pictures the lead RDC had a steam heat line, can't remember the railroad. I never herd of one equipped with a steam generator.

[Anonymous]

attn:drephpe, Many thanks to you for the great data! As soon as I get an RDC all decorated up as BUDD demo I'll find a way to get photos of it on this forum. Your comment re: purchasing a reprint of the RDC brochure was well taken-how much from whom? When I initially replied to this topic (on RDCs) I had no intention of even buying a Proto 1000 RDC-see what you guys made me do! Again, thank you.

[Anonymous]

attn: bill mathewson, glad it helped. the comment on the brochure was a joke---on the string ndbprr says he has one and tried to sell copies but no interest. How do I post a jpg photo on this thing and you can see what the car looked like??

You guys are making me get out my books!

Eddystone--in looking in my copy of "Rock Island Rockets", it looks like RDC3s 9015 & 9016 (at least) got through steam piping installed later in life. From1956-1962, these cars ran in the consist of trains 509/510 (and successor no's) Kansas City Rocket, with a single RDC3 sandwiched between the head end cars and the coaches, in revenue service as coach space between KCY and Enid OK, where it was cut out and ran solo the rest of the way to FTW. This was one of the most bizarre train consists ever conceived (stick the Missouri in there -- that's the infamous stainless steel boat tail baggage car -- ahead of the RDC and it would probably qualify hands-down as the most bizarre). It is at least plausible, if not almost a certainty, that the Rock installed the through steam pipes to handle heating the rest of the train. Rock experts-any data? Is this correct or not? I'm looking at pix and see steam pipes.

[Anonymous]

The Rock Island RDCs were pretty strange birds. All 5 (Nos 9003-9005, 9015 and 9016) were RDC3s, but RI rebuilt them from RPO-baggage-coaches into RPO- coaches with 30' mail apartments. In so doing, the baggage doors were sealed up.

Steam heat lines were applied at some point to all 5 cars. The 9015 and 9016 definitely had them while they served on the "Kansas City Rocket", since coaches were usually handled behind them on the Kansas City-Enid portion of the run. Photos of the cars in this service do show the steam heat lines in place.

The 9003-9005 cars, which usually served on the Memphis-Amarillo "Choctaw" route, were stripped of their propulsion units in 1964. After that time, they were assinged as RPO-coaches in locomotive-hauled trains, usually Nos 21 and 22. Renumbered as cars 903-905, they had steam heat lines by that time, as shown in a number of published photos.

Apparently Nos. 9015 and 9016 also lost their propulsion units and were rebuilt in 1964 into baggage-RPOs Nos 805 and 806. I haven't seen photos of these cars after rebuilding.

The sources I reviewed claimed that the RDCs on both the "Kansas City Rocket" line and on the Choctaw line handled unpowered cars from time to time as trailers (including the coach-baggage-"observation" "Missouri")! I haven't seen any photos to support those claims, however.

--John

[Anonymous]

Want to see the most bizarre RDC ever? See "Trains" 2/89 pgs 26-29. NYC converted an RDC3 built in 1953 (and the first of three RDC3s purchased by the NYC) to jet power using two GEJ47 engines mounted on the roof, streamlined the rear of the train with a 'shovel nose- like' fairing and ran the unit 'backwards' -pass. compartment became front of car. Engines were at new 'front' of RDC and the nacale they were mounted in looks for all the world like it came right off a B47. NYC built this contraption for $30,000 as a response to the US Commerce Dept. push for the RR industry to explore hi-speed rail as an alternative to the highway system as a better people mover. The 'Metroliner M.U. cars developed by Budd and the PRR, as well as the gas-turbine 'Turbo Trains' developed by Pullman and United Aircraft, were projects driven by the US Commerce Dept.'s reaction to a mid '60s MIT study group's report. Consensus of opinion believes NYC"s participation was more to prove that existing Northeast Corridor track/roadbed was okay for high speed service and that there wasn't any serious thought given to actually use a jrt powered railcar. Others felt it was but a publicity stunt. And this was in an era at the NYC when they wanted out of the people hauling end of the business. Go figure. On July 23-24, 1966 the NYC tested this 'railcar' on a 24 mile long straight and level stretch of 'barely adequate 26 year old 127-lb non-welded rail slated for replacement' according to NYC engineering. Test site was between Butler, Ind. and Stryker, Ohio. This wierd bugger ran a verified 183.7 mph! This RDC was numbered M-497 and nick-named the "Black Beetle". The test was considered a success, in that it proved that the US rail system could operate high speed trains safely over conventional rail (and even through switches) that weren't even up to 1966 NYC mainline standards. M-497 was converted back to an RDC3 (with the obvious removal of the twin J47 engines), was returned to commuter service out of Harmon, N.Y. and was retired in the late '70s. For yet another bit of trivia, the NYC used similar J47 engines that were mounted on flat cars for snow removal service in the same timeframe. According to the "Trains" article, early RDCs were powered by a pair of underfloor Detroit Diesel 6V-110 engines rated at 275 hp each that drove the inside axles of each truck thru Allison torque converters (like that component in an automatic transmission that enhances acceleration, etc.), short drive shafts and Spicer gearboxes. These were probably adapted from large highway trucks or buses of the era. RDC production units starting in 1956 were upgraded to 300 hp engines through the end of the 398 unit production run in 1962.

[Anonymous]

My recollection is that they did come off a B-47.

[ndbprr]

There was no intent or is there any intent to sell copies of the brochure. If there was I would have told people how to contact me. Posting it is another idea that I will have to put in the pile of stuff to do. I also think I found where the trailer idea came from. I just looked over a 2000 MR that reviews the RDC and Hediger states in his review they were designed to pull, "a trailer or two" and were capable of 30 freight cars on a level track. The first is an erroneous unsubstantiated opinion. The second is important for pulling RDC dummies as several roads ran them in multiples.

[Anonymous]

Anyone notice how much apparent interest there is in RDCs based on 600+ 'views' on this topic over a few days? Heck Budd only made half that many (RDCs) over about 10 years!

[Anonymous]

Bill--

Isn't that always the case? And in a sense of pure encouragement, I think we all know ndbprr wasn't on here peddling his brochure (I certainly never intended to even leave a hint of that impression, and I apologize if I came off that way), but he sure found his niche as to interest. Hey, the RDC is a unique and interesting vehicle despite its shortcomings, and it sure wasn't eclipsed by the SPV.

Everybody--

As to other bizarre versions, if any of you get to Galveston, the museum there (which is quite good, by the way) had the ex-NWP RDC (a.k.a. "Redwood Daylight") that was wreck damaged, so SP rebuilt it with the cab only at one end, thus killing a major fraction of the utility of it. I'll leave a blank here for those of you who feel compelled to compliment (or whatever) Biaggini for this stroke of genius: _______________________.
Maybe we can award one of those exquisite, utterly palatable, and ultramodern gourmet Russellburgers--not available on the RDC, of course-- for the most appropriate observation, but please start another string if you're going to vent!

If Galveston sold the car, please someone tell us here, but you ought to get by there anyway if you're down here.

And remember if you come, our calendar here is different, because the sunrises and the Sunsets are only 3x/week here.

[Anonymous]

heah -drephe & ndbprr, I never thought ndbprr was 'peddling his (RDC) brochure, although I sense he is quite proud he has it and probably wants us to be real envious of him. After all, does anyone else have that very rare, almost unobtanium type, brochure? I don't. How about you, drephe-bet you don't either? We don't need no stinkin' brochure now, not with all the stuff we all learned about RDCs this past week on this "topic'! Now if you take any of this as a serious response, and not as a funny, I'll start taking your comments just as seriously. . .

[Anonymous]

Bill--

Actually, I think it's great that he has the brochure and was willing to share some of the info in it with us. And as to whether ndbprr was trying to sell his brochure, I thought by his last post he might have taken some offense at one of my comments (not anything anyone else had said), and I certainly don't want to hit anyone's nerves. I took his original post to mean that he had found no earlier interest from anyone regarding the subject, and as you pointed out so well, he hit the mother lode on interest here. I hope he can figure out how to post parts of it if he feels so inclined, because everyone here seems to have an interest in that information. The collectable nature of his piece is another matter altogether.

By the way, I found another post on here that says I can't directly post the pix I referred to, but when I get a chance I may try anyway.

[ndbprr]

No I didn't take offense merely expressing that at the time there was absolutely no interest and as I said if I was interested in selling copies I would post how to contact me. I'll have to dig it out of the stack of stuff and see what I can do. I know that there is a mimeographed list glued in by Budd of the original buyers to the date they sent it to me as a kid which was probably around 1952.

[Anonymous]

Lighten up guys-( I'm assuming you are guys, and in fact, let's not act like cranky women over this! Boy was that politically incorrect. . .) All of this info has been great and rekindled my interest in RDCs.. In fact it has been one of the better on-line ' topics' on this forum in some time. Trainworld has Proto 1000 RDCs on sale in latest MR ad for as little as $19.99. Going to get a couple just for the hxxx of it. heah 'ndbprr-there you go again teasing us with the possibility that you have a mimeographed list of the original buyers of the early production RDCs! And the beat goes on. . .

[ndbprr]

Well I'll dig it out and give you the numbers. the earliest I can possibly get to it is sometime next week so keep checking and I'll post them asap.

[Anonymous]

Thanks-hope I can reciprocate some day!