Lefty
Terry
Mark P.
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Tom
QUOTE: Originally posted by Surfstud31 Tom - that is how much of my new benchwork will be. In the along the wall sections I will run 2x3 from edge of layout to where floor meets wall. This keeps legs out of your way and should provide plenty of strength. I just finished cleaning up the room and now I am prepping it with a light coat of blue paint on the walls (for sky) and super-white on the ceiling for good light reflection. Should have it painted and ready for benchwork this weekend. Getting psyched, it's been 12 years since my last layout and I miss my trains dearly.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A Veteran, whether active duty, retired, national guard, or reserve, is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America" for an amount of "up to and including my life."
QUOTE: originally posted by Surfstud31...Getting psyched, it's been 12 years since my last layout and I miss my trains dearly.
QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley ......then pile of my wife's big, heavy .. Oh man, I thought I read "big, heavy" something else. Sorry Mr.B, it's past my bed time. Reply Edit MisterBeasley Member sinceDecember 2004 From: Bedford, MA, USA 21,481 posts Posted by MisterBeasley on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker I can't believe how useful latex cauk is in building a layout. I could probably glue the foam to the wood benchwork with it even, guess I'll have to try that next. --Randy That's what I do. A bead of caulk on the rafters, then the foam, then a pile of my wife's big, heavy art books. (Note: remove the art books before putting down the roadbed.) It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:02 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by horailfan ...should I follow Westcotts advice and move the legs in (basicly a table below the gridwork )or just install them at the corners attaching them directly to the grids? Should you attach the legs at the corners? In my opinion, no. Attaching the legs to the corners increases the chances of creating scale earthquakes from the legs being kicked by you and/or guest . And it isn't as good for supporting weight as moving them inward. Should you set the legs below the grid? No, not quite. Rather than set the grid on top of L-girders with legs, attach the legs to the grid as Westcott suggest by locating them to minimize sag and tilt and thereby maximizing load bearing properties. You could use L-girders under the grid and attach them to the legs AND to the bottom of the grid. That would add bracing to the legs near the top at the attaching point to the grid. it's most important to properly brace the legs for stability. QUOTE: ..The last layout I built I did put them at the corners but also had a 2x4 running down the middle of a 4x8 section and then attached a 4x6 creating an L (this layout was also grid construction with plywood on top) somewhat of an overkill with all of the 2x4 bracing, I could of danced on that benchwork... In the first sentence on page thirty five, Westcott says that "An average model railroad layout weighs about two pounds pre square foot." But it should be able to support a beer gut shoving it from the side and top while working on the layout. Again, I.M.O., it is not the table top that needs reinforcement, it's the legs. If you want to go crazy with the lumber, concentrate on bracing the legs. Make them as ridged as possible. And if you have a gut the size of a Sumo wrestler maybe you should bolt the legs to the floor or the table to the wall to prevent shoving the layout around the room. Reply Edit rrinker Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Reading, PA 30,002 posts Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:51 PM Actually, I went downstairs tonight to check out a few things, and now that it's beena few weeks since I glued the Tortoise under the foam with calk - it's solid as can be. No way if the force of the spring wire going to move it. I think I found a new way to proceed - skip cutting the square, skip making squares of perf board, just drill a whole and caulk the Tortoise underneath, pretty much the same as with plywood. In fact you probably could use the caulk to mount the Tortoise on plywood and skip the screws. There's a good half hour of working time to get it aligned, then let the caulk set up for 24-48 hours, and off you go. I can't believe how useful latex cauk is in building a layout. I could probably glue the foam to the wood benchwork with it even, guess I'll have to try that next. --Randy Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:43 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer ...I was thinking of just glueing a 4"x4" piece of 1/4" plywood to the bottom of the foam then screwing a tortoise to that . could probably go with a smaller piece of plywood if space is tight , or a larger piece if 2 tortoises are close to each other . i'd love to hear pro and con arguements about this before i start construction (maybe this summer) Con (well, more con than pro) For the base for my roundhouse and turntable I used a 4' X 4' X 1/4" outdoor plywood under a 4' X 4' x 2" extruded foam. As soon as I applied the glue to the plywood, it warped, a lot. I used all the heavy weights I could find, on top of another sheet of plywood, on top of the foam (just to protect the foam from dents). After the glue set, It came out somewhat flat, but not perfectaly flat as I wanted. The warping did give me a bit of trouble with fitting the rear walls to the base of the roundhouse. But consider that the roundhouse spans across the whole 4 x 4 section and I shoot for perfection (however, I often miss the bulls eye). Maybe a sag or bow of 1/16" - 1/8" won't be a problem for you though. Reply Edit rrinker Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Reading, PA 30,002 posts Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:35 PM Well I mounted my Tortoises from the top through the foam. But I'm in the midst of an experiment to just glue them onthe bottom with the same latex caulk I used for everything else. So far, it seems stable. The Tortoise held on by itself while the caulk was drying. Next step is to see how easily it peels off, which I suspect will be quite easy. Then I need to put it in place where it operates an actual turnout and see if it withstands the sideways force of the operating wire. If this works it will make things even easier, no messy squares to cut in the foam and still no plywood required. --Randy Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more. Reply ereimer Member sinceJune 2003 From: CANADA 2,292 posts Posted by ereimer on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:12 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Surfstud31 Ah ha! Jack, I think you hit what I wanted to know. If I am going to be mounting under the table slow-mo machines, etc, I want that 1/4" plywood base for mounting stuff to. That makes alot of sense. Then a 2" layer of foam on top of plywood. Then I will use Woodland Scenics roadbed or AMI. It's all coming together now. Thanx gang for all the great input! i was thinking of just glueing a 4"x4" piece of 1/4" plywood to the bottom of the foam then screwing a tortoise to that . could probably go with a smaller piece of plywood if space is tight , or a larger piece if 2 tortoises are close to each other . i'd love to hear pro and con arguements about this before i start construction (maybe this summer) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by horailfan ...I've been reading How to Build Model Railroad bencwork by Linn Westcott. He recommends moving the legs in away from the edges of the layout and using L girders for the base of the layout above for more stability... Don't overlook the part about tilt and sag. Moving the legs (ideally) at 1/5 and at 4/5 the distance of the girder, not only adds to stability but also increases load bearing by reducing sag and tilt. See figure 1 on page 35. Consider too that you will have an amount of toe space related to the overhang of the joist. See figure 4-9, page 30 Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:07 PM Ah ha! Jack, I think you hit what I wanted to know. If I am going to be mounting under the table slow-mo machines, etc, I want that 1/4" plywood base for mounting stuff to. That makes alot of sense. Then a 2" layer of foam on top of plywood. Then I will use Woodland Scenics roadbed or AMI. It's all coming together now. Thanx gang for all the great input! Reply Edit jhugart Member sinceMay 2015 199 posts Posted by jhugart on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:44 AM When you have your legs inset from the actual edge of the layout, you are less likely to kick the legs when you are working on the layout, and it is easier to hide the legs with a curtain. The ultimate of this is a walk-in layout where you have brackets connected to the wall, so there are no legs whatsoever. On the other hand, if you decide to build straight down, you could incorporate shelves or something right there. Remember, though, that even kitchen cabinets have a toe-space so you can stand as close as you tend to do without stubbing your toes. Reply jxtrrx Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Southern Colorado 752 posts Posted by jxtrrx on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:41 AM I had a small section of foam with no plywood under and experienced lots of reverberation noise as trains rolled into the "foam only" area. The difference in mine and what Randy decribes is mine was only 1" foam. I bet that's the root of the noise problem. (Thicker maybe reverbs less). -Jack My shareware model railroad inventory software: http://www.yardofficesoftware.com My layout photos: http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a33/jxtrrx/JacksLayout/ Reply rrinker Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Reading, PA 30,002 posts Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:11 AM I don't lay track directly on the foam, I used the Woodland Scenics foam roadbed. All 'glued' with latex caulk. I don't have a noise problem. While othr combinations might well be quieter, the predominate sound I hear when runnign trains is the swish of the metal wheels on the rail, NOT any kind of out of place drumming sound from the foam. I'm not sure what I've done differently than the people who have complained of the noise. Could be the caulk adhesive, or having supports 16" OC (the foam would support itself over a wider span, 2' for sure - so I COULD use less wood), or the partcular variation of foam I use. The local Home Depot only sells Owens-COrning (pink) Foamular 250, which is the middle grade as far as strength (and probaly thus density) goes. Some places may get the Foamular 150 or the heavier 400/600/1000 line (very strong and designed to go against or under concrete forms). The Foamular 1000 has a 100PSI supprot strenth - unless you were wearing spikes you could certainly stand on that. I have no idea how much something like that costs, probably much more than good grade plywood, whereas the common Foamular 250 is less expensive. --Randy Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more. Reply tomikawaTT Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: Southwest US 12,914 posts Posted by tomikawaTT on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 1:29 AM The only reason to use plywood under 2 inch foam is what jxtrrx said, to give something to attach to. The whole concept of L-girder construction is that all the screws go from the bottom up. Foam doesn't hold screws worth a darn! The plywood doesn't have to be thick under 2" foam, just thick enough to hold screws. Also makes mounting switch machines below the roadbed a lot easier. My own benchwork is L girder type, but built with steel studs. Subroadbed is laminated thin plywood reinforced with steel. (Dessication does strange things to wood, so keeping plywood flat is an issue, even with only 16 inch spans.) What foam I do use is 1/4 inch fan-fold underlayment, used where most folks use cork (another material which doesn't react well to high heat and zero humidity). Reply 12 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! 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......then pile of my wife's big, heavy ..
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker I can't believe how useful latex cauk is in building a layout. I could probably glue the foam to the wood benchwork with it even, guess I'll have to try that next. --Randy
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
QUOTE: Originally posted by horailfan ...should I follow Westcotts advice and move the legs in (basicly a table below the gridwork )or just install them at the corners attaching them directly to the grids?
QUOTE: ..The last layout I built I did put them at the corners but also had a 2x4 running down the middle of a 4x8 section and then attached a 4x6 creating an L (this layout was also grid construction with plywood on top) somewhat of an overkill with all of the 2x4 bracing, I could of danced on that benchwork...
QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer ...I was thinking of just glueing a 4"x4" piece of 1/4" plywood to the bottom of the foam then screwing a tortoise to that . could probably go with a smaller piece of plywood if space is tight , or a larger piece if 2 tortoises are close to each other . i'd love to hear pro and con arguements about this before i start construction (maybe this summer)
QUOTE: Originally posted by Surfstud31 Ah ha! Jack, I think you hit what I wanted to know. If I am going to be mounting under the table slow-mo machines, etc, I want that 1/4" plywood base for mounting stuff to. That makes alot of sense. Then a 2" layer of foam on top of plywood. Then I will use Woodland Scenics roadbed or AMI. It's all coming together now. Thanx gang for all the great input!
QUOTE: Originally posted by horailfan ...I've been reading How to Build Model Railroad bencwork by Linn Westcott. He recommends moving the legs in away from the edges of the layout and using L girders for the base of the layout above for more stability...