UPDATE! Need opinions

[pcarrell]

I don't think you can post an .ral file. I think you have to Email them. I haven't figured out how to post them.

Looks like what you have there will work. I'd probably assemble that group of turnouts as a unit off the layout and then transfer it as a whole. That's going to be a lot of switch machines in one area.

Busy, busy section of town..........

[Anonymous]

Thats's what I come up with. I don't know if it is going to work.
Will someone look at it for me and see if they can fix it?
How do I post the ral file so anyone can download it?
I can do pictures, but I have not figured out how to post the ral.

And thanks for that description of how the yard ops work. That helped a lot and your pictures were great!

[pcarrell]

Indeed TZ, a nice solution. I thought that was where you were going with that one, and I think it'll work great. It'll keep the yard crew a little busier too. That's always welcome on a small layout.

Lava,

You can still add the fence and trees to divide the scenes up. As a matter of fact, the break in the fence for the escape turnout can double as the road crossing for the guys who work in the yard office (that old caboose you mentioned. That way the break in the fence would look very natural.

[Tom Bryant_MR]

lava96, I've been following your progress here with great interest as I also received a lot of good inputs and advice from these very members when I was designing my layout. I didn't know either what a double anything was when I started. . Congradulations and good job !

Here is a picture of a double crossover. Started with a double slip but later design indicated a crossover fit my situation best. Yours may be different.


How trains operate in yards fascinates me. Don't know why. It just does. Last Sunday I decided to put together a picture, of sorts, of a simple operation of a train arriving and a yard engine getting the consist away from the loco and into the yard for sorting later. Here is how I visualize one scenario working on my layout.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=59888

Good luck with your layout and I hope this helps with food for thought and not confuses. Pictures have always been worth the proverbial thousands words to me [^]

[Anonymous]

OH.....TZ you are a genius.
I think I like that most of all for 1 big reason. The road loco can pull all the way to the buffers in the A/D track and allow the goat to slip out behind the train. The I can uncouple the road loco and let the goat back the train up (especially since the yard entrance is so long). Once the train is out of the way the road loco can back up to the turnout and switch back to the main and then drive forward right into the TT. This is definately the shortest route back to the TT and gives me the most length in the A/D.
I think that settles it. Now off to buy some tracks!
Has anyone been able to fit a curved turnout into a CAD program for my layout? No big deal if no one did but I thought I would ask.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96

I don't think I understand the double slip solution.
Is that a special turnout or is it just a crossover switch?

It is a special turnout. A "double slip" allows a train approaching either of the tracks to cross and depart on either of the diverging tracks on the other side. Basically the equivalent of 4 turnouts in one.

Another variation is the "Single slip". It is just like two normal turnouts built on top of each other.

QUOTE: In the 3rd solution I don't see how I could get the locomotive off of the front of the train. If the loco pulls into the A/D track all the way past the first turnout on the yard lead then it is stuck at the end of the spur. It would have to sit there until the yard goat broke the enitire train down.

Well almost. All the yard goat would have to do is pull the train back far enough and wait for the road engines to escape. Then it could proceed to break the train down.

[SMassey]

The way you are suggesting will work the same as mine. I was just making a total of 5 pieces of ply for the table top. 2 sheets approx 2.5'x 4' on each end and a seam in the middle that would be 6" wide by 5' long making the total bench work 8.5'x5'. I was treating each piece of ply as a seperate piece not as a whole 8'x8' sheet. your method will work just fine mine is just a little more even.

Here is a pic of what I was suggesting maybe this will make better sence.


Is that better?

[pcarrell]

It's not too often you see a turnout in a tunnel, and that's mostly a maintinance thing. You'd probably do better placing a row of buildings in front of the turnout to hide it. You have the perfect excuse to do that with the sidings right there. You could also hide it with a row of thick pine trees or something. You could do a hill with a cut in it too.

When it comes to the curved turnouts you're right in that it could save you some space. Unfortunately, I'm like you and I have a lot of trouble working with Xtrak. Maybe somebody else here can help with that?

[Anonymous]

pcarrell: I think your last post made up my mind. Instead of busting my brain trying to get the Wye to work or messing with the slip switch (Although both great ideas) I will just leave it the way you suggested back on page 2 with the escape track. That does two things for me. First I can place the escape 9" farther down the spur so hopefully can fit a slightly longer train in my A/D track. If I go with wither the wye or slip solution I would have ot move both of them 9" farther up and shorten my already short A/D track. Also (and the MAIN reason) I can put a tall wooden fence and a row of trees inbetween the main and the yard. You are correct, they are close and can appear much farther apart this way. I was alos starting to think of a hill in the northern most eastern corner with a tunnel on the yard entrance. Then when the train disappears into the portal and comes out of the other side it will look like it came from "somewhere else". I am months away from landscaping but might as well think of it now.
Can anyone try to run my layout in a different CAD program? One with the Peco curved turnouts? I only have RightTrack by Atlas and don't want to buy the pay CAD programs out there and have had NO LUCK at all getting that other free one to work (Xtrax I think) I have seen very nice latouts on it but it is too confusing for me. It took me weeks to get as poor as I am with the Right Track program.
I would really be appreciative if someone could try to adapt my layout in another program and see if by using some curved turnouts if they canmake a difference. Like for example (curved turnout for industry #1 and the interchange track aas well as the turnout to the yard entrance. And possibly a curved turnout as the very first in the yard leading to the A/D track) If anyone can do this please let me know.
Thanks

[pcarrell]

Hey, I recognize that escape track! It looks just like the one on page 2! What I mean by that is that it's good to see the return of the escape track, wherever it ends up. This is the place it made the most sense to me, but I actually think TZ's idea might be better in some ways. TZ's plan is a more compact solution. It requires the least amount of fuss to move from the yard to the TT. I like the slip switch idea too. That's the trick solution.



The thing I was thinking about today though is that in this solution the yard could be a little lower in elevation then the rest of the tracks which would give it some visual seperation. Almost as if it were actually somewhere else. It could even be further seperated by a fence or a row of trees, maybe even thick brush. That would enhance the idea that these two very close things (the mainline & the yard) are "really" in very different locations.

The extra couple of inches you've allowed is very welcome. Funny how these things seem to take on a life of their own and just grow and grow and grow, huh?[;)]

As far as the lumber goes I'd just try to figure out how to do it with the least joints, and make sure that those joints aren't close to any edges. Also make sure that any joints or edges are well supported and screwed down.

[Anonymous]

You have thoroughly confused me.
I was going to use two 4'x8's sheets. I just wasn't sure where to make the cuts.
I figured I would have to lay them long ways (from front to back) giving me essentially 8'x8'. Then I could rip 3' off of the back edge making it 5'x8' overall.
With my remaining two pieces of scrap, both being 3'x4', I could make 6"x2.5' and lay them in the center of the layout between the two larger 5'x4' pieces.
I have already made a 5'x8' frame so I am just going to add two joists in the center which will go under the 2 joints (where all 4 seems come together). I could not figure a way to add on to the outside to avoid an overhang so I am just going to settle for 3" on each side sticking out.
Is that basically what you were trying to say as far as the cuts and how to lay it out? You lost me with the 1'6" thing and the 8 main 8' lengths.

What do you think of my escape track? IS it ok? I still can't get the wye to work and I don't think I like the double slip.

[SMassey]

Making the layout 8'6" long poses a unique problem but you will have the lumber for it if yo ugo 5' wide. In order to make 5" you will need to purchase 2 4x8 sheets and have them riped (also called cut) length wise at 2'6" then butt them together on the framework. That leaves you with 2 pieces of 1'6"x 8 sections that could be cut 5' x 6" and the 8 main 8' lengths cut in the middle and have the 5'x6" section added. If you go this rout make sure that you have framework underneath al the seams to screw the boards to to prevent warping after the layout is built on top. as for the over hang you should be OK but seeing that you will have to make more complex framework to handle the seams you may just consider making the frame longer too? If the frame is already built I would just add joices to screw the ply to over rebuilding the entire bench.

As fr the double slip it is a unique switch that will allow you to switch to both the inner loop (like a crossover) or to the outer loop as well. They look like a simple crossover with points of a turnout. I didnt understand how they worked till I was able to "play" with one in a store one day. Very useful little creatures.


Good luck

[Anonymous]

Here is what I came up with. I had to make it 6" longer too.

So now overall I am at 8'6" x 5'. I guessed that with 5' x 8' benchwork I could overhang the left and right ends by 3" giving me 8'6" total. I also figure I can overhang the front and back by 1" giving me 5'2" in width. The benchwork is going to really give me trouble now. I can only find 8' boards so lying 2 of them long ways is easy. Then cutting the short lengths to give me 5' is easy too. But going any longer than 8' I am stumped!

Do you think I should just stick with 8'6" by 5'?
And what do you think of this layout? I am still trying to mess around with the wye instead of the escape track but I am having a lot of trouble!

[Anonymous]

I don't think I understand the double slip solution.
Is that a special turnout or is it just a crossover switch?
If it is just a crossing then wouldn't that force the loco into going right from the yard to the inner loop and not be able to go to the outer?
Not that that is a problem but since it occurs so close to the beginning of the A/D track it shortens the length.
In the 3rd solution I don't see how I could get the locomotive off of the front of the train. If the loco pulls into the A/D track all the way past the first turnout on the yard lead then it is stuck at the end of the spur. It would have to sit there until the yard goat broke the enitire train down.
I do however like the wye solution, but it is hard to get things lined up.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96
TZ just confused me with all 3 of his last suggestions.
I don't think I see what you are talking about. Maybe I am just blind to it but the idea about the wye and the single or double slip switch has flown right over my head.
Can you illustrate somehow or maybe explain differently?

Yes words can be hard:
The wye solution


The double slip solution


The cross over solution


With RTS the crossover solution fit best.

[SMassey]

Walthers.com will have both the SHinohara and the Peco turnouts that you need.

[Anonymous]

You guys have all been awesome!
Thanks for the comments, I think I am almost ready to start laying track
I have a couple problems though.

I still cannot find any place onlinne that sells the curved turnouts.
TZ just confused me with all 3 of his last suggestions.
I don't think I see what you are talking about. Maybe I am just blind to it but the idea about the wye and the single or double slip switch has flown right over my head.
Can you illustrate somehow or maybe explain differently?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96
TZ, is the comment about going full circle back to what I had a bad thing? I don't know how to take that comment. You said we picked apart my original plan and we have gone back to that plan, so is that bad?

NO, no the opposite - I was trying to compliment your original work. I thought you were sort of down on yourself for 'not getting it' when you were really closer than our comments would have indicated.

QUOTE: Do you think I will have space to put a right handed turnout on the A/D track? I know I can put one on there, but I don't have room on the mainline to connect back.

I can think of three potential alternatives to using track #2.
1. Use a Wye turnout off the main. That way one curves toward the yard while the other curves with the curve. Might have to "kink" the main down to a 22" to make up for it.
2. For the right hand crossover on the main. Replace the turnout on the outside with a single or double slip switch. That way the track from the yard basically crosses over the outside main.
3. Put the crossover on the switchback after it departs from the A/D track (least desireable because of how much A/D track is consumed.

[pcarrell]

Lava,

Your original plan was very good. I said that and so did others. The fact that we haven't deviated far from that proves the soundness of the original idea. It is a good plan, it's just that it could be a bit better with some minor modifications. Now that those are done it works even better.

You know, one thing you didn't mention is that the goat could sit on the far end of track two also.

I looked at the plan again and you're right. There's no room to have the escape track go straight to the main without sacraficing the crossover just left of the cutoff for the servicing facility. Even if you did do that it would have to be a left handed turnout on the main so that the straight leg is on the escape track and the curved leg would have to match the curvature of the main (24"R). If you did this you could move the escape turnout on the A/D track down towards the end of that track, effectively making the A/D track longer. You just have to leave enough room for the loco to clear the points at the end. Your call though.

Man, I'll tell you what,......YOU ARE SOOOOOOO CLOSE!!!!!

With all the help you're getting here, especially from TZ (he's a wealth of knowledge and ideas, isn't he?), you're going to have one killer track plan![8D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

In this little amout of space, seldom is a train going to be short enough for the road engine to cut off without help from the yard engine. Ideally it should be able to just leave the train their, return to the loco facilities and not worry about the train it just left behind. On a 4x8 there isn't enough space to do that with trains any longer than 3 cars.

A final coment. I did really want to point out how close this is to your original design of a yard that we picked appart. Basically we came full circle back to your original with the exception of the curved lead on the right. So you see, you weren't that far off. Looks like the 2nd-try of a yard picture overlaid the first try.

Do you think I will have space to put a right handed turnout on the A/D track? I know I can put one on there, but I don't have room on the mainline to connect back. I think I am going to be forced to just use the escape track ide by putting the left handed turnouts on the A/D track and the 2nd track i the yard. After the road loco cuts off of the train it can go back to the TT by slipping up to track #2 and then up the ladder to the yard lead and back. I know it is a bit of a haul, but it is all I can think of (UNLESS someone can come up with a better design) Thanks for the explanation of the yard operation. The yard goat can sit on the ladder track and wait until the train is completely inside the first turnout. The while the road loco cuts off the yard goat can break the rear of the train off and start pushing cars into the spurs. That might be my only alternative in order to make room for the road engine to get back out. If the yard goat is on the ladder it will be in the road engine's way, so either it has to tuck in to track 3 or 4 or go to the back of the train until the road engine leaves.

TZ, is the comment about going full circle back to what I had a bad thing? I don't know how to take that comment. You said we picked apart my original plan and we have gone back to that plan, so is that bad?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96
When the road loco brings the train in on the A/D track does the train need to fit all the way down that spur (the bottom most spur)? Or can it just fit inside the turnout at the entrance to the A/D track?

I know pcarrell already answered this but I wanted to try again with different words. It just needs to fit inside the turnout at the entrance to the A/D track. The important thing is that the yard engine can get behind it. Whether the yard engine sits on the ladder or comes all the way from the turn table it doesn't matter.

In this little amout of space, seldom is a train going to be short enough for the road engine to cut off without help from the yard engine. Ideally it should be able to just leave the train their, return to the loco facilities and not worry about the train it just left behind. On a 4x8 there isn't enough space to do that with trains any longer than 3 cars.

A final coment. I did really want to point out how close this is to your original design of a yard that we picked appart. Basically we came full circle back to your original with the exception of the curved lead on the right. So you see, you weren't that far off. Looks like the 2nd-try of a yard picture overlaid the first try.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96

OK...first question. The mainline is 24" and the shortline is 22" (You are correct)

I thought that was what you'd said.

QUOTE: Second, I didn't understand the reason for the escape track but since I do now I will be adding them in ASAP.

See. this stuff isn't so hard. It's just a matter of figuring your way through it step by step.

QUOTE: Third, The small two ended spur I was thinking an engine house for the yard loco and maybe an office. I figure the yard loco can go to the TT for the RIP track there. I will model some RIP structures on the RIP in the center of the layout off of the TT. I might just stick an old caboose without trucks on the spur in the yard (for the office) and a shed for the loco.

I kind of figured that, but I thought I'd ask. It'll work well for that.

QUOTE: I have a question...what is a team track?

This one was so simple I almost kicked myself when I found out. It's a track where cars are set out, usually boxcars, and they are at just the right height so that a team of horses (pulling a wagon of course) could pull right up to the door and load or unload straight into the car. Sometimes there is a small wooden or earthen ramp there next to the track for the team. See, I told you it was simple. In a more modern context the team of horses would be replaced by a truck (pick up or larger).

QUOTE: Oh..and thanks for the explanation! It helped a lot.

No problem. This is one of those things I just had to go one step at a time to figure it out.

QUOTE: Just a quick question again though.

Shoot!

QUOTE: When the road loco brings the train in on the A/D track does the train need to fit all the way down that spur (the bottom most spur)? Or can it just fit inside the turnout at the entrance to the A/D track?

Right on the second shot. If the train pulls all the way down the siding the loco won't have room to uncouple, pull past the escape turnouts, and get out. This means that your maximum train length is determined by the length of the A/D track from just past the turnout off of the yard lead to just before the escape track. That's why you want that distance to be as long as possible.

QUOTE: Also...the A/D track is the first left hand turnout off of the yard entrance right? The second left hand turnout would be the yard lead? Is that correct. I figure since the ladder comes off of the second, that is the yard lead.

By jove, I think he's got it! Right on the money, man.

See, I told you this wasn't to hard. You just have to think your way through it. In my case, that took a while![;)]

Seem's to me that you have a decent grasp on this thing now. I'd still suggest you pick up a copy of "Track Planning For Realistic Operation" by John Armstrong. It really is worth every penny of the asking price. The pictures and diagrams help a lot in understanding the tracks and how trains move over them. I still learn stuff from my copy, and I've had it for yaers!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

If you look at the curved legs of those two turnouts, the curvature doesn't match the curvature of the inside track. A curved turnout might fix this, or it might not. The trick is finding a turnout that has a curved leg that is complimetary to the inside curve.

I'm sorry this is kind of vague, but I don't know what your inside curve is (22 inch radius?).

I notice that you've changed the yard some. It will work this way, except that there is no escape track (set of turnouts about halfway down the bottom two legs of the yard) so your incoming loco's will be trapped until the yard goat breaks down the train and gets it out of the way. Just food for thought.

I noticed that you added a small two ended spur off of the A/D track. What did you have in mind for that? I can see several possibe uses for it. Team track maybe? Engine house for the yard goat? RIP track? What's your thoughts on that?

OK...first question. The mainline is 24" and the shortline is 22" (You are correct)
Second, I didn't understand the reason for the escape track but since I do now I will be adding them in ASAP.
Third, The small two ended spur I was thinking an engine house for the yard loco and maybe an office. I figure the yard loco can go to the TT for the RIP track there. I will model some RIP structures on the RIP in the center of the layout off of the TT. I might just stick an old caboose without trucks on the spur in the yard (for the office) and a shed for the loco.

I have a question...what is a team track?

Oh..and thanks for the explanation! It helped a lot. Just a quick question again though. When the road loco brings the train in on the A/D track does the train need to fit all the way down that spur (the bottom most spur)? Or can it just fit inside the turnout at the entrance to the A/D track? Also...the A/D track is the first left hand turnout off of the yard entrance right? The second left hand turnout would be the yard lead? Is that correct. I figure since the ladder comes off of the second, that is the yard lead.

• Reply
• Edit