UPDATE! Need opinions

[Anonymous]

OK...I tried this.


In addition to the questions I just asked in my last post (If pcarrell would be so kind to answer them) can someone look at the flex track curves in the top right and bottom left corners? I don't like the way these look (and the bottom right too where the interchange track is) Do you think maybe 3 Peco curved turnouts would fix this problem? I hope someone can think of somehting.

[Anonymous]

OK.....here we go.

QUOTE: " What if you had the yard lead come off the curve on the right of your plan and circle up to the top. Then set it up like TZ's yard with the A/D track and the yard, and just lose the loco facilities that he has (you don't have room for them).

I like that. Any idea what curved turnout would work well in this situation? I have never seen curved turnouts in a store so I was going to try and order a Peco one online. I just need to know what kind. Do they have turnout numbers like standard turnouts (#4, #6 etc...)? I think I will use a curved turnout exactly as you have it...from the right top part of the curve leading north to the yard entrance.

QUOTE: You could also eliminate the current A/D siding.

What do yoy mean by that?

QUOTE: Now on the main loop and the inside loop, switch the crossovers to make the lefts rights and the rights lefts. This would also eliminate one movement when taking a loco from the yard to the servicing facility.

Perfect...I love this idea!

QUOTE: I also added an escape track to the yard. TZ's plan didn't need one because you could access the TT directly, this one needs it.

What does that mean? An "escape track"? I don't get it.
Also, what is TT and A/D as well? I guess I need to brush up on my lingo!

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
To me planning is one of the things that I like most. I can build 20 layouts in my head and on paper and it doesn't cost me a thing. And I get to learn from each one.

[#ditto]

QUOTE: Now look at Texas Zepher's example he posted. ... (really nice plan BTW TZ).

Yeah, that took two dedicated weeks (vacation time) to come up with and I still didn't get it right originally. There were three major modifications to the original plan, two of them to the yard. My son added all the extra tracks on the turn table. I originally had only two loco storage tracks.

By the way, your description of how the yard works was great. I couldn't have described it better myself. The yard goat normally sits on the yard lead when it has no work to do. It was originally planned so that it could be in the loco facility, but that one extra turnout length makes a lot of difference. Even so if the train is more than 4-5 cars it has to pull all the way to the end of the track, let the goat pull in behind to take off the train, and only then back into the turn table. This would be a REALLY great design if there was 2 feet more between turn table leads. But for a 4x8 layout ......

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96
I know Peco makes a curved turnout. I was wondering if there was a way to create one or import one from another library in RightTrack.

I usually just line things up and overlay two pieces of flex track to make a curved turnout.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96
Oh, and I am running all modern so no caboose to worry about.
I think I understand what you are all saying, I just don't know how to make it work.
I am also afraid that this revision is just as bad as the original!!

No, I think it is better. Wow, that is a lot of track. I'm going to have to think about it for a while. ...

The real problem is we are trying to take what a real railroad accomplishes in a few real miles and try to squish it into a few real feet. Our club has a yard about 36 feet long and it always seems the arrival and departure tracks are too short... and we just added a new double crossover because we had to "saw" the locomotives from the round house to the passenger station. So it is very difficult and even experienced people have trouble with it. Often it isn't until one is actually operating the yard that the "light comes on" of what should have been done.

[pcarrell]

No problem ondrek. I sent you an Email. I can't attach anything to it due to the software that the forum has in place. Just send me a fresh Email directly to me (I included my Email address) and I'll attach the file and send it back.[8D]

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

Two hours later,

OK, I revised my software and this is in HO.

There are no curves sharper then 18 inches and all turnouts are #4's exept the one to the interchange and that's a #8. You will notice that it's pretty close to the edges so an extra 2 or 3 inches added to two sides would help a bunch, but it's all there.



Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too.

If you'd like I can Email you the plan in an .ral file so your RTS can read it. Just let me know if you want it.

I would really love to get that .ral file. please email it to me please, please please.

Kevin

[pcarrell]

Look at this! I leave you alone for just a little while and go have a night out with the wife, and I come back and you're turning into a layout designer!

Really, it looks pretty good. It also looks like SMassy and Texas Zepher have been helping quite a bit. Between you and me, I've learned a bunch from them. They're good guys.

I see you're getting the hang of this yard thing. it's a lot tougher then it looks, isn't it? Theres more to it then just slapping down a bunch of parallel tracks. I don't know if it was the web site I gave you that you were reading or not, but that one helped me make sense of it all.

I don't mind that you redid your plan at all. To me planning is one of the things that I like most. I can build 20 layouts in my head and on paper and it doesn't cost me a thing. And I get to learn from each one. You have no idea how many redesigns I did on my last one (I'm not even sure I know), and now I'm going to be moving and so I'm starting over.

The plan you've got here is solid. The advice you've gotten is top notch. The changes you made are good. The things that I noticed are this; You still have some back and forth movements to get the loco's from the yard to the TT. Thats not a deal killer, just something to be aware of. You could even disguise that fact by making you loco's deliver and dispense cars from the RIP track whenever they go from the yard to the locomotive facilities.

The other thing I see is this; your A/D track is part of your yard lead. See how if you pull off the main onto the A/D track it blocks the yard entrance? The turnouts that lead to the yard will be in the middle of the train. I'm not sure what to do to fix it as you don't really have any more room to work with.

Now look at Texas Zepher's example he posted. In that scenario a train pulls on to a dedicated A/D track (located next to the TT) and then the loco cuts off and can back right onto the TT (really nice plan BTW TZ). Then the yard goat can break the train up and access the yard via the yard lead located next to the A/D track. Notice also, the long lead into that yard area from the main. This is so that the yard goat can move the cars from the A/D track to the yard, and vice versa, without fouling the main.

Perhaps by looking at TZ's plan upside down there may be a fix for your plan. What if you had the yard lead come off the curve on the right of your plan and circle up to the top. Then set it up like TZ's yard with the A/D track and the yard, and just lose the loco facilities that he has (you don't have room for them). You could also eliminate the current A/D siding. Now on the main loop and the inside loop, switch the crossovers to make the lefts rights and the rights lefts. This would also eliminate one movement when taking a loco from the yard to the servicing facility. Something like this;



I also added an escape track to the yard. TZ's plan didn't need one because you could access the TT directly, this one needs it.

BTW, the roundhouse is in the Cornerstone series software. Just go to load library and it's in there.

I hope this is of some help. I don't mean to be discouraging at all. You're SOOOOO close. These were just my thought's, take um or leave um.

[SMassey]

This looks alot better your yard can only be entered westbound but it seems that it can be a functional yard now. You may be able to get more yard by making the enterance start on the west side right after the wye turnout and head east and basicly keep the design the same only mirrored.

You cant import the Peco turnouts into the atlas program but other RRCad programs already have them in their libraries. If you have the hang of RTS maybe try doing this layout in XtrkCAD from http://www.sillub.com it is a little harder to learn but has tutorials on just about all the features.

Last but not least, You are doing a great job learning how to plan layouts and make track plans keep up the good work.

[Anonymous]

I know Peco makes a curved turnout. I was wondering if there was a way to create one or import one from another library in RightTrack.
Atlas code 83 and code 100 is all I have in HO scale for the libraries. Are there any others? Can I import the Peco one or make a custom turnout on the software.

[Anonymous]

OK...how about now?
I tried 4 revisions...I am not sure if this is OK.
Zepher...is this better?
Can you help me?

Oh, and I am running all modern so no caboose to worry about.
I think I understand what you are all saying, I just don't know how to make it work.
I am also afraid that this revision is just as bad as the original!!

PLEASE HELP

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96
I was thinking that the yard engine would not be coming in from the mainline...but I guess that is wrong.

No generally you are correct. Usually the train would arrive, the road engines would cut off and go to the locomotive facilities. The yard engine would then cut the caboose off the rear and move it to the caboose track. Then couple onto the train and begin to break it up. BUT to do this it has to be able to get to the rear of the train.

Unless I am totally missing something, in this design either one has to position the yard goat on the first track and then back the road train into it. Or nose the train into the first track and have the yard goat out on the main somewhere to pull the train off the locomotive. In either case your yard ladder bypass track (which is usually how the road engine gets around the train it just brought in) is not needed. Ideally, with your design the first track would be long enough for a whole train to enter. Then the yard goat would come from someplace like near the office up behind and pull the cars of the road engine and begin to sort them. The road engine could then exit the yard and proceed to the service facilities. To do this with this design would limit your trains to a short loco, two short cars, and a caboose.

Oh, in working through this, I just noticed something else. To get a locomotive from the yard to the loco facilities it has to saw back and forth. That is four direction changes.

[ghonz711]

If you made the switchback near the yard office a lead to the main line and used a curved turnout on the outside main to connect it, then you would be able to get your trains into the yard a lot eaiser. Then there would be no need for flipping the yard. You could then have a crossover on the curve using the curved turnouts to give the main line trains easy access to the yard from both main line tracks.

Ghonz

[Anonymous]

Just when I thought I was getting this stuff. I am confused. Do you mean the lead and the runaround should go from the south east towards the north west?
The way it looks to me now I would go off of the mainline in a northwest direction via the turnout. Then I see what you mean, the locomotive would need to back down the runaround.
I was thinking that the yard engine would not be coming in from the mainline...but I guess that is wrong. If the class 1 engine leaves the freight consist out on the mainline while the yard engine goes out to pick it up I can see how I am backwards. And if the class 1 actually entered the yard to drop off freight it would have to uncouple on the lead, and back up then go forward down the runaround and back back out on the mainline.
I will mess with it to try and get it the other way, but my skills are not that good. This took me 3 days the way it is now. I have been trying and trying and trying.
Can you think of anything else?
What can I do to make the crossovers better? And how about flipping this yard? Any suggestions on how?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SMassey
Now the Yard. It is backwards. You will have to pull into the yard then back down the runaround(if your train is short enough). The way the yard is you sould enter it from the track at the very north of the layout then it would be fine. See if you can somehow flip it around to get what you want.

[#ditto] the "longest" track in the yard should be the arrival track. In yours it is the shortest. It is actually quite close to the yard on my son's RAT layout.

[SMassey]

Everything looks good to me except the yard (more on that one sec) It is a really buisy layout and will take some tricky track laying with the crossovers but measure twice and cut once you should be OK.

Now the Yard. It is backwards. You will have to pull into the yard then back down the runaround(if your train is short enough). The way the yard is you sould enter it from the track at the very north of the layout then it would be fine. See if you can somehow flip it around to get what you want.

[Anonymous]

OK...I don't want to upset you pcarrell but I went ahead and made a totally new layout. It has nothing at all to do with me not liking the one you emailed me. On the contrary, the one you sent me is my new inspiration. As you will see I pretty much kept a lot of it the way you layed it out. I decided to stay with 5' X 8' and go with 24" on the mainline and 22" on the short line. I also layed the yeard at the north end. Now this is my first yard so PLEASE PICK IT APART. I read the website about yard laying and I think I got it right. I have runaround and a dedicated lead so I won't foul the main. I also squeezed in a few extra spurs to use as staging on the right. (Main yard on the left for running sessions-- staging on the right for some extra stuff.) Thanks to pcarrell I am addicted to the turntable idea. I just don't know if I did it right. I kept the 2 RIP tracks in there and ran 4 tracks off of the table section for the roundhouse. I just wanted to make sure I had it right. I cannot find the roundhouse in the righttrack library.
Can you all pleasel look at this. I am not sure if I like the crossovers. I did manage to squeeze in a decent yard, a good size locomotive facility (RIP tracks and roundhouse) and I got 7 industrial areas (One nice big one with 2 spurs).
I also like how the one spur in the bottom left (inner loop) goes "across" the other 2 spurs. I like the crossover action. I managed a switchback or two and kept it from being too crowded.
I wanted MAXIMUM interest here so I think I covered everything.
Any comments you all have, PLEASE LET ME KNOW (good or bad)!
My main concern is that it is realistic. I am concerned with the yard, any ideas on how to improve it? I am concerned with the turntable area. Please let em know what you all think.

Thanks

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
Any time a train doubles back on itself using the same track you have a reversing loop/reversing of track polarity. Look at the trackplan and trace the route starting with the inner loop at the righthand side of the layout and go counter clockwise past the turntable and follow the crossover in the layout's center. You've doubled back on yourself. Now, start on the inner loop at the lefthand side of the layout. Go clockwise using the crossover at the center of the layout and continue around on the inner loop. You've ended up doubled back on yourself again. These two reversing loops are essentially mirror images of each other sharing the same central section of track.

Oh I see what you mean, we just count differently. While there might be two physically different ways to "loop" around to the center section, they both go through the same center section. The "loop" in my reconning is the piece of track that requires the electricity to be futzed with. Hence remove the center crossover and you have removed "the loop". If there were two electrical loops one would have to remove two pieces of track to get rid of them. So in my counting only one "loop".

This is why we confuse people when we talk about these things [;)]

[pcarrell]

Just for giggles I changed the curves from 22 on the outside loop to 24 and did the a likewise change to the inside loop. I also changed one industrial siding to make it a switchback. I also made the interchange into a small yard. Lastly, I expanded the table a few inches to give it some realestate on the edges.



Admittedly, this is a bit bigger then you wanted, but I wanted to explore the possibilities. You could shrink the curves back down a little to save a few inches overall.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

The reversing loops (you have two there)

I only know about one of the sections being a reversing loop. I see the reversing section as the track that runs across the center of the inner loop starting at the top right (north east) and ending in the bottm left (south west).
Am I missing another one?

The turn table proper can be considered a reversing section. But other than that I don't see a second one either.

Any time a train doubles back on itself using the same track you have a reversing loop/reversing of track polarity. Look at the trackplan and trace the route starting with the inner loop at the righthand side of the layout and go counter clockwise past the turntable and follow the crossover in the layout's center. You've doubled back on yourself. Now, start on the inner loop at the lefthand side of the layout. Go clockwise using the crossover at the center of the layout and continue around on the inner loop. You've ended up doubled back on yourself again. These two reversing loops are essentially mirror images of each other sharing the same central section of track.

CNJ831

[pcarrell]

The Atlas turntable reverses polarity on it's own. It doesn't need and special wiring. The only drawbacks to it are that it stops at every track for a moment as it turns and if you're running sound and lights you get a blip in them as the polarity reverses, but that's it.

Now, I know I Emailed you earlier and said I wouldn't get to this in a couple of day's, but I got to it, so here it is.

First, I just opened it up to 5x8 and redid the turnout in the center to work a little better.



Then I redid the yard and engine facility to include 1 more yard track and 2 RIP/car repair tracks next to the engine house. I added a scenic divider down the middle diagonally to give you two different scenes which would make the layout feel bigger. One side could be the engine facilities and yard with the city in the background and the other side could be some businesses in a small town out in the country.



This last one is similar, but I flipped the yard and the RIP track and added a switcher pocket to the runaround in the yard. I think I like this one best.



The biggest drawback to the last two is the tail on the runaround in the bottom corner of the yard is pretty short. It's about 8 inches, so a small switcher like a plymouth or something should do dedicated yard service.

It's all still pretty tight and it runs close to the edges (a few more inches on both sides would help to insure against trains taking the tumble into the giant canyon, i.e. the floor, and being put into the scrap heap), but it all fits.

I'll Email you the .ral files tomorrow.

What do you guy's think? Yea? Nay? Ideas?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

The reversing loops (you have two there)

I only know about one of the sections being a reversing loop. I see the reversing section as the track that runs across the center of the inner loop starting at the top right (north east) and ending in the bottm left (south west).
Am I missing another one?

The turn table proper can be considered a reversing section. But other than that I don't see a second one either.

QUOTE: Also, now that I upped the size to 5' X 8' do you still think I should ditch the reverse loop?

I think the other issues should determine the reversing loop, not the size of the layout. The 5x8 would handle the reversing loop better.

[SMassey]

On both track plans I can only see one reversing section. The little single track yard in the north kinda looks like the second one but if you follow one rail it ends up in the same location on the other side. NOw you have to be careful on the second layout because the turntable can become a reversing section really fast. I dont know for sure if the Atlas turntable (the one shown in the plan) reverses the polarity on its own or not. I have a Heljen 90' turntable and it does not reverse itself so I have to wire it for auto-reversing. If you are using DCC, most manufacturers have autoreversing modules available. I know that the Digitrax DCC system has a module called the PM42 that can do power districts and autoreversing at the same time. This unit has 4 channels that can be setup as either power district or auto reversing or both at the same time. On my layout (which is similar as you know) I use 2 channels for power district (inner and outer loops) and then one channel for auto reversing in the reversing loop. I have one channel still free and currently programed for a power district. If you go with a system like I have talked about having 2 reversing sections is as easy as reading some instructions and isolating a few rails.

Good luck!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

The reversing loops (you have two there) are likely to be a problem unless you've wired something like them before. If you are new to the hobby and are only really comfortable with the ideas of basic layout wiring...drop at least one of the reversing loops.

CNJ831

Maybe I am too new to the hobby, I only know about one of the sections being a reversing loop. I see the reversing section as the track that runs across the center of the inner loop starting at the top right (north east) and ending in the bottm left (south west).
Am I missing another one?

[CNJ831]

The reversing loops (you have two there) are likely to be a problem unless you've wired something like them before. If you are new to the hobby and are only really comfortable with the ideas of basic layout wiring...drop at least one of the reversing loops.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roadrat

Are you really keen on keeping that reverse loop, If you did away with it you could make a larger yard and have more room for industry buildings.

bill

I gave this question some thought...If I am going to have a roundhouse/turntable I don't necessarily NEED the reversing section. I just thought it added some unique operational qualities with running the train over a normal operating session. If anyone can come up with some better plans WITHOUT the reverse loop then I am open to suggestion. Do you think maybe a Wye could fit across the middle of the layout to be used as a turnaround? Also, now that I upped the size to 5' X 8' do you still think I should ditch the reverse loop?

[Anonymous]

OK...a few things
I am going to really try and just go and do 5' X 8' so if you could be so kind and try again with the extra foot I would be very appreciative!
Yes you were right about the spur in the north. If we get rid of that spur (in between the 2 loops) we should have a lot more room.
So by removing that spur and making it a foot wider how would the yard and roundhouse facility look?
I agree with not cramming too much more in. I don't want to add any more industry, just spread it all out a bit more.
So we can go 5' X 8' and get rid of the one siding. Can someone try that for me and also send me the .ra file so I can screw with it too?

Thanks everyone!!!!

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96
-- Can you make the yard have 3 spurs in stead of the 2?

If you did away with the run around, then 3 tracks would fit.

QUOTE: I am also thinking of going 5' X 8' now. I shouldn't have much difficulty reaching into the center of a 5' wide layout.

That extra foot would really help and make things look much less crowded. Just don't use it to try to fit in that much more track.

Normally I would fire up RTS and see what I could do with this but seems like pcarrell has got that covered.... So this time I'll just watch.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lava96

Holy crap!
That is awesome.
I would love to see the /ral file so I can get the item list from Atlas.
Funny, I never saw a #8 turnout on the library for Atlas code 100 track though.

I did this with the Atlas HO code 83 software. The #8's are in there. You might want to concider code 83 for it's better looks. I don't think it causes operational issues as it's still pretty beefy, it just looks a little better.

QUOTE: So let me ask you a few questions:

-- Can you make the yard have 3 spurs in stead of the 2?

Not without more real estate. And I think it needs to be on the 8 side, not the 4, but I'll goof with it.

QUOTE: -- Could you maybe make the round house facility a little smaller?

Thats what you get with the software because the Cornerstone kit is a three stall roundhouse that you can add on to three stalls at a time. You could bend one of the leads to make two run side by side into an engine house. That might save a little room, but you lose that fantastic roundhouse look.

QUOTE: -- I think it looks good without the siding in between the mainline and the short line to the north. That will give me much more room in the inner loop to extend some of that stuff out.

You mean the siding between the two main loops up in the top middle on the original plan you showed?

QUOTE: -- I just watched "Workin on the Railroad" last night on DIY Network and got very interested in roundhouses. My 3 year old was very excited by them too, so I might just have to add the round house to mine.

They're pretty cool, huh?

QUOTE: -- The bottom 2 tracks on my yard were going to be locomitive facilities, maybe fuel and an office, but with the round house I would rather add those facilities to the round house area. Could you try to fit a spur nearer the roundhouse?

I can try to wiggle something in, but I was thinking of your fuel and sand facilities being on the lead to the turntable. I'll play with it and see what I come up with.

QUOTE: -- I looked but can't imagine it. You seem to have a better imagination than me so maybe you can find a way to lower the yard a bit to the south and squeeze some locomotive facilities near the roundhouse.

5x8 should help that quite a bit. I'll be messing with it.

QUOTE: I am also thinking of going 5' X 8' now. I shouldn't have much difficulty reaching into the center of a 5' wide layout. I mean that is only a 2.5' reach from either side!
Can you try to RELAY this out on 5' X 8' for me and try to make the changes I have suggested?

This should ease things a bit. I had that 4x8 crammed about as tight as I could get it!

QUOTE: Also, email me the .ral too (Considering that you wouldn't mind--I don't mean to ask too much!)

No problem. It's at my work so I'll get it to you tomorrow, K?

[roadrat]

Are you really keen on keeping that reverse loop, If you did away with it you could make a larger yard and have more room for industry buildings.

bill