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[Updated as of 3/29/06 ] Trackplan yet again. All comments Wanted and Welcomed.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 20, 2006 5:22 PM
[
QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

Aha! ("aha" is the ID of my railimages trackplan image)
Aha! I found the key-- well anyway, A key to grandpacoyote's layout. A very small addition to the suggested space makes the difference-- a one foot deep shelf two feet long behind the closet door (behind the door only when the door is opened). The tail of a wye can go into that area. That makes the length of the layout on the right side of the plan 13 feet a a few inches instead of 11 feet and a few inches.

The 26 inch radius of the bottom curve of the wye pushes its stem, and with it, the bottom edge of the layout to a diagonal across the bottom of the layout room instead of a straight-across edge.
That suggests a "teardrop" shape space left in the central space. What can we put in a teardrop shaped space? That is the shape of a REVERSE LOOP! All of a sudden, then is a way to fit in the wye grandpacoyote wanted, plus a reverse loop that lets trains be turned quickly so an eastbound train can become its westbound counterpart, AND we have staging for 4 long trains.



http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/aha.jpg

What can we do to justify a reverse loop out in the middle of the desert? A prototype power plant is conveniently placed on the real railroad in this area, and power plants often have reverse loops for unit trains. We are not necessarily running unit trains but it gives a little justification for the appearance.
And the plan leaves a little bit of "out-in-the-country" open space.

I would like a longer icing dock, without a curve in the end of it. Wi***here was more room for town to be fully modeled instead of building backs, but hiding two long long staging tracks, even though stub ended, is probably worth it.

I conceive of this layout as being seen from the NORTH side of the tracks, opposite of a usual map view where the right side of the map is east. With LEFT HAND running on the Santa Fe in this part of Arizona in the 1950s, that makes the inside track of the paired mainlines the eastbound track, running counterclockwise. Why? Because I wanted the icing dock to be convenient to eastbound reefer blocks running from Southern California and Arizona's Peavine line in the direction of Kansas City, Chicago and the East Coast, and the only place to fit in the icing dock seemed to be on the inside of the layout.

I labeled the very obvious industries-- a bulk oil dealer, the depot with its freight house track., the power plant. The industries on the right wall need to be indoor/ warehouse type industries since the building backs need to hide the staging track. They might represent a farm supply and feed dealer.... and what else?



Leighant,

Amazing! I had a lot of time to read while I was down, was about all I was up to; but yes the Cholla Power Plant does indeed have a reverse loop, just as you suggested. The Downside was that I discovered that Unit 1 at Cholla wasn’t built until 1962 and, as best as I can find, construction for the area wasn’t begun until 1960, 1959 at the earliest. [xx(] This places it pretty far outside my time range.

Seems the more I learn the more walls I hit *chuckles* but then ain’t that the way it always goes. However, the idea of the Wye with its tail running behind the closet door is perfect and set off some sparks in my own mind. I have been slowly drawing out Tz’s plan in 3rd PlanIt when I was able and I have been trying to, as strange as it might sound, incorporate his plan and your ‘Aha!’ plan as I think that together they offer me just bout everything I could want, needless to say it going slowly. As I told TZ I hope to have some drawings up tonight or tomorrow and look forward to any feedback you could offer. I’m still having a devil of a time with any sort of yard.

All things being equal I think that a plausible excuse could be made for the reverse loop, just have to figure one out… I’m sure there is something in the data I have on the area that will present itself. I’ll go back and look through it again. I did have a question though about the plan… The hidden staging lines (I am coming to understand that staging is a must so I’m open to any ideas of how to get some into this darned small space), my question is: How would the staging lines be accessed? Looking at the plan I’m not sure I get how they would be gotten to for maintenance and access. I’m sure it’s just me still being cotton headed, but maybe you could help blow out the cotton some? [:)]

Also I was wondering, I read somewhere, I can’t remember for the life of me where, but it may have been advice given here on the forums, that a lift up/out section should always be on an angle rather than a straight piece. Would you happen to know if this is true, or did I just imagine that along with the white rabbits and giant caterpillars?

Sorry if this is a bit rambling, it’s all the cotton between the ears, dont’cha know. [;)]

Peace
Coyote
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, March 26, 2006 3:48 AM
Well gang here it is the latest and greatest update. Apologies for not getting this up till Sunday morning but things got in the way.

Anyway here it is again in a glance:

Locale: Northern Arizona alongside route 66.
Period: 1954.
Layout Height: c.50".
Turnouts: #6 on Mainline #5 on staging #4 in yard.
Curve Radii: 28" outside mainline, 26" inside mainline.
Industries: Concrete Plant, Mill, Scrap Yard, Misc. Manufacturing, Fuel Oil Supplier.


[In case the image won't enlarge you can see it at: http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan5.jpg]


Looking forward to hearing feedback from the gang.

Peace.

Coyote
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Posted by twcenterprises on Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:04 AM
Surely it's just a simple oversight, but where's the crossovers? I don't see any way to go from one main to the other. Or did I miss something?

Brad

EMD - Every Model Different

ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil

CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Sunday, March 26, 2006 10:21 AM
Sorry to hear you have been ill. I sort of figured something was amiss when you were gone so long. And now its been me that has been away, we've been really busy getting the house ready for the three children we are adopting.....Also what are you doning up at 3:48 in the morning!

QUOTE: Originally posted by twcenterprises

Surely it's just a simple oversight, but where's the crossovers? I don't see any way to go from one main to the other.

Probably just oversite and in the yard too. They yard needs at least one locomotive excape track. For the main lines. the location of crossovers can really make a difference in the operation. Notice on the draft I originally posted I only put in two and they are positioned so that when leaving the central yard a train has to go around the inside loop once before it can cross over to the outside. Then ditto for coming back, it then has to go totally around the outside loop before crossing back to the inside. Around the inside again to get back to the yard. Basically a three lap journey when crossovers are involved.

Getting back to the yard. You've done the same thing I originally did. I am talking about the "switchback" track off the lowest yard track. On mine this was meant to be the drill track, however from this position it has nothing to drill. I first tried reversing the direction of the yard ladder but there isn't quite enough room for that, and I thought one would have to "saw" a train into the yard - not good. I tried various three way, and double slip combinations but couldn't get anything workable, so that is why I move this track onto a curved turnout on the leg of the wye.

One more comment that will have to wait as I've got to get going to church....
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:51 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by twcenterprises

Surely it's just a simple oversight, but where's the crossovers? I don't see any way to go from one main to the other. Or did I miss something?

Brad


Brad,

No sir you didnt miss it, I did. I was redoing the plan and left them out to work on some track and forgot to put them back in. They now appear in the new plan below.

Peace.

Coyote.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:06 AM
Ok take um what is it now 6 or 7 hundred? [;)]

After putting the crossovers back in which I left out like a goober (thanks Brad for catching that) and reworking their position and some yard redesign (thank you TZ for your insight as always) here is the current version. This one includes sketched in placement of buildings, industries. roads and highways, most of which I have tried to carefully measure out to make sure they are viable and compared to the dimensions of some of the model buildings I hope to place in the locations. I've also made sure to account for curvature of backdrop and a few other little fiddly bits that I had let slip past me.


[In case the image won't enlarge you can see it at: http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan5a.jpg]


Looking forward, as always, to any an all comments, criticisms, critiques.

Peace.

Your's in, seemingly eternal, continued layout design.

Coyote


P.S. TZ I'm often an early riser, as you will see from this post's timestamp. I haven't had a good night sleep in years. [|)]
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Posted by chateauricher on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 5:54 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote

(In case the image won't enlarge you can see it at: http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan5a.jpg)
P.S. TZ I'm often an early riser, as you will see from this post's timestamp. I haven't had a good night sleep in years. [|)]

As you can see from the timestamp on my posting, you'll notice I'm awake early, too. However, this is due to the fact I work the graveyard shift and have another half-hour before I can go home.

Anyways, you were looking for come critiques/commentary on your latest plans ?

I have only one suggestion and it deals with the staging you have in the closet space. Is there anyway you can put a series of curved turnouts in the curve located in the upper right corner ? This would form a type of pinwheel and allow you to have much longer yard tracks (increasing overall capacity by almost 1/3).

If putting 3 turnouts in a row takes up too much space, you can try putting one turnout on each leg of the first turnout. I did that on my layout (although I used regular straight turnouts), as you can see in the lower left corner below ...


http://www.railimages.com/albums/timothyjohnston/aaj.jpg


Timothy The gods must love stupid people; they sure made a lot. The only insanity I suffer from is yours. Some people are so stupid, only surgery can get an idea in their heads.
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 2:26 PM
A lot more storage could be worked into the hidden staging area buy using curved turnouts going in. Sort of like a pinwheel ladder, rather than waiting until the track gets straight before starting the ladder.

If you haven't noticed I really like to save space by using curved turnouts. The 198x MR series on the "Jerome & Southwestern" was enough to convince me! Some people will argue that straight ones are more prototypical, but on my last train trip to the East Coast I don't think I saw a single "straight" turnout east of Cinncinatti.

I think the yard area still needs some work. I think too much space is taken up with run-around type tracks now. Sometimes I make paper scale size "cars and locos" and put them on the track to "operate" it and see how it will actually work out.
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Posted by jxtrrx on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:23 PM
May I just jump in and say what a valuable thread this one has been for me! I always enjoy the "evaluate my track plan" threads because there is always a lot to learn from them... but this one seems to really cut through to the essence of what makes a good plan. It's a reasonable size, features lots of operational elements, has a nice yard, runarounds, passing, industry, staging -- all within a space of a normal spare room. (My train room even has the two closets -- now destined to become staging). TZ - your "vision" plan which grandpa has used to formulate his changes is a classic. Thanks.
-Jack My shareware model railroad inventory software: http://www.yardofficesoftware.com My layout photos: http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a33/jxtrrx/JacksLayout/
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:29 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher
As you can see from the timestamp on my posting, you'll notice I'm awake early, too. However, this is due to the fact I work the graveyard shift and have another half-hour before I can go home.

I am with you friend, my OL still works 5th shift as a stockbroker, the market must go on you know, and it certainly hasn’t helped my own sleep schedule to have her on a separate one.

QUOTE:
Anyways, you were looking for come critiques/commentary on your latest plans?


Yes I am, always welcome them from anyone on any topic. It’s the best way I learn and think outside my own box.

QUOTE:
I have only one suggestion and it deals with the staging you have in the closet space. Is there anyway you can put a series of curved turnouts in the curve located in the upper right corner? This would form a type of pinwheel and allow you to have much longer yard tracks (increasing overall capacity by almost 1/3).

If putting 3 turnouts in a row takes up too much space, you can try putting one turnout on each leg of the first turnout. I did that on my layout (although I used regular straight turnouts), as you can see in the lower left corner below...


http://www.railimages.com/albums/timothyjohnston/aaj.jpg



Thank you for the input Chateauricher I will definitely try it out. Good suggestion and pictures are always incredibly helpful. Now if only I could find a way to have my staging feed into both tracks inner and outer I’d be cooking with gas.
Thank you again.

Peace.

Coyote
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:40 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

A lot more storage could be worked into the hidden staging area buy using curved turnouts going in. Sort of like a pinwheel ladder, rather than waiting until the track gets straight before starting the ladder.

If you haven't noticed I really like to save space by using curved turnouts. The 198x MR series on the "Jerome & Southwestern" was enough to convince me! Some people will argue that straight ones are more prototypical, but on my last train trip to the East Coast I don't think I saw a single "straight" turnout east of Cincinnati.

I think the yard area still needs some work. I think too much space is taken up with run-around type tracks now. Sometimes I make paper scale size "cars and locos" and put them on the track to "operate" it and see how it will actually work out.


Tz,

As always, thank you. Yes Chateauricher also mentioned making more storage in the staging closet. That will be the next project as soon as I finish reading back up on pinwheel ladders and making sure I have the concept firmly in my mind.

The curved turnouts take some getting used to, to place but I agree they are very valuable. You will note I put in two curved turnout crossovers at the corner curves before the Wye tracks, I love having them there and it works well with advice given back above by Leighant regarding having the crossovers on curves, although I took a slightly different approach towards it.

Ah yes the Yard *mutters*, the leering devil of this whole project. I have read and reread Armstrong and Ellison and a well designed yard still baffles me. Oh well back to the drawing board at least I feel I can focus there better with 80% of the rest done. [;)]

I'll try and have some improvements up for viewing in a few days. *crosses fingers*

Peace

Coyote
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:50 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jxtrrx

May I just jump in and say what a valuable thread this one has been for me! I always enjoy the "evaluate my track plan" threads because there is always a lot to learn from them... but this one seems to really cut through to the essence of what makes a good plan. It's a reasonable size, features lots of operational elements, has a nice yard, runarounds, passing, industry, staging -- all within a space of a normal spare room. (My train room even has the two closets -- now destined to become staging). TZ - your "vision" plan which grandpa has used to formulate his changes is a classic. Thanks.


Jack,
Feel free to jump in, the more the merrier. Also let me take a moment to say that I use your shareware program and I love it. I must agree with you also sir it was TZ's "vision" plan that realy set me in the right direction, he, Leighant and many, many others here are simply amazing. Looking forward to seeing some of your plans and pics too.

Peace

Coyote
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:07 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote
Yes Chateauricher also mentioned making more storage in the staging closet. That will be the next project as soon as I finish reading back up on pinwheel ladders and making sure I have the concept firmly in my mind.

Hmmm, I see his comment now, sorry for repeating it. Somehow I missed it originally.

On the other hand, the picture of the layout Chateauricher presented gave me one additional idea that I've been pondering. So now is as good a time to mention it as any. It is an option and/or have you considered totally removing the closet? That would make your "around the room" to be quite a bit larger, it would allow more area for the center pennesula, and/or more space to change to or also encorporate some of leighant's ideas. esp. double ended hidden staging....
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 31, 2006 12:52 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher
Hmmm, I see his comment now, sorry for repeating it. Somehow I missed it originally.

On the other hand, the picture of the layout Chateauricher presented gave me one additional idea that I've been pondering. So now is as good a time to mention it as any. It is an option and/or have you considered totally removing the closet? That would make your "around the room" to be quite a bit larger, it would allow more area for the center pennesula, and/or more space to change to or also encorporate some of leighant's ideas. esp. double ended hidden staging....


TZ,

Yes, I had considered it at one point however forces beyond my control *looks around real fast to make sure the OL isn't watching* made such a choice unwise at this juncture. [;)] The OL has the crazy idea that she is going to actually move me and my pile of precious antique junk someday and sell the house, so that bedroom will need its own closet. In addition to that, the door to that room does open inwards to the room and so I'm not sure how much space I would save after having to redesign around that. Oh, but I would love double ended staging. *sighs*

Peace.

Coyote
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Posted by ereimer on Friday, March 31, 2006 10:54 PM
bah no problem , it's not that hard to build a closet . tear it out and if you ever decide to sell the place build a new one , or have it done . i'm sure there will be many other projects around the house when it comes time to sell it , one more won't make much difference [:)]
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Sunday, April 2, 2006 5:55 PM
Ideas for the Yard. With only 8 feet to play with the options are limited. Here are four ideas..... The problem with them all is locomotive escape from the passenger train to the servicing. I tried the crossover both ways to no avail. At this point is where I would acutally get out pieces of track, temporarily hook up promising combinations and actually run the trains on them to decide which I liked......
One - REA on station side(top), escape track for train on station side, requires a three way turnout at the throat.


Two - REA opposite station side, escape track for train on center (A/D) track, requires three way turnout at the throat. The passenger train would generally not come in and "park" next to the station. It would be one track away.


Three - Long track next to the station allows passenger train to go in there, but loco can't escape. If the crossover was reversed the locomotive could escape but to nowhere... Eliminates the 3-way turnout, requires more curved turnouts.


Here are a couple that only the yard goat can access to and from. Could be used with any of the above designs for the top part of the yard above. This one has a double slip.

This one has three curved turnouts and requires a longer drill track.
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Saturday, April 8, 2006 3:35 PM
One more idea!. You could put the wye for the yard entrance on the outside loop and crossover the inside loop. That would buy about another 3" of length! [;)]
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 10, 2006 8:51 PM
Hey Gang.
Well I'm back from visiting with my son for a week, he sends his hellos to all the ‘train guys’.

TZ, thank you for the yard variations they have been a great aid to me. I’m posting some up here tonight to see what you and the rest of the gang thinks. I made a few more adjustments here and there and I’m so close to being done now I can taste it and my excitement level is high to get started. At this point if everything keeps going well I may be ready to start bench work by June (May being used to prime and ready the room).

Here are the various plan I have come up with for the Yard so far:

Plan A


Plan B


Plan C



Tell me what you all think of any of these pro or cons I’m always up for input.
Right now I favor A and C personally.

Looking forward to hearing back from you all and hope all you and yours are doing well.

Peace.
Coyote
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Monday, April 10, 2006 9:40 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote
Tell me what you all think of any of these pro or cons I’m always up for input.
Right now I favor A and C personally.

I agree. B has problems on multiple levels, including just being too dense.

I'll repeat that I think you shouldn't try to lock in a final plan. Buy various pieces and just connect them together, to try out various things. Since it is basically a flat space that is a given size and shape, it should be easy to "play with" variations.

It might be a good idea to make a listing of the actions that will happen in the yard. Or even a sequence a actions.....For example:
1. Make up a freight train.
2. A. Freight train arrives on track x.
B. locomotive cuts off and returns to loco shops.
C. yard goat pulls in behind train and cuts off caboose.
D. yard goat couples onto train and begins classifying it.
E. yard goat parks and crew goes to lunch!

3. A. Passenger train arrives on station track.
B. Passengers unload.
C. Yard goat couples on and pulls train clear so road units can get to service.
D. Yard goat spots REA car.
etc.

Then with each trial yard, the scenarios can be worked through to see how they actually work out.

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