QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote Tell me what you all think of any of these pro or cons I’m always up for input. Right now I favor A and C personally.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher Hmmm, I see his comment now, sorry for repeating it. Somehow I missed it originally. On the other hand, the picture of the layout Chateauricher presented gave me one additional idea that I've been pondering. So now is as good a time to mention it as any. It is an option and/or have you considered totally removing the closet? That would make your "around the room" to be quite a bit larger, it would allow more area for the center pennesula, and/or more space to change to or also encorporate some of leighant's ideas. esp. double ended hidden staging....
QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote Yes Chateauricher also mentioned making more storage in the staging closet. That will be the next project as soon as I finish reading back up on pinwheel ladders and making sure I have the concept firmly in my mind.
QUOTE: Originally posted by jxtrrx May I just jump in and say what a valuable thread this one has been for me! I always enjoy the "evaluate my track plan" threads because there is always a lot to learn from them... but this one seems to really cut through to the essence of what makes a good plan. It's a reasonable size, features lots of operational elements, has a nice yard, runarounds, passing, industry, staging -- all within a space of a normal spare room. (My train room even has the two closets -- now destined to become staging). TZ - your "vision" plan which grandpa has used to formulate his changes is a classic. Thanks.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher A lot more storage could be worked into the hidden staging area buy using curved turnouts going in. Sort of like a pinwheel ladder, rather than waiting until the track gets straight before starting the ladder. If you haven't noticed I really like to save space by using curved turnouts. The 198x MR series on the "Jerome & Southwestern" was enough to convince me! Some people will argue that straight ones are more prototypical, but on my last train trip to the East Coast I don't think I saw a single "straight" turnout east of Cincinnati. I think the yard area still needs some work. I think too much space is taken up with run-around type tracks now. Sometimes I make paper scale size "cars and locos" and put them on the track to "operate" it and see how it will actually work out.
QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher As you can see from the timestamp on my posting, you'll notice I'm awake early, too. However, this is due to the fact I work the graveyard shift and have another half-hour before I can go home.
QUOTE: Anyways, you were looking for come critiques/commentary on your latest plans?
QUOTE: I have only one suggestion and it deals with the staging you have in the closet space. Is there anyway you can put a series of curved turnouts in the curve located in the upper right corner? This would form a type of pinwheel and allow you to have much longer yard tracks (increasing overall capacity by almost 1/3). If putting 3 turnouts in a row takes up too much space, you can try putting one turnout on each leg of the first turnout. I did that on my layout (although I used regular straight turnouts), as you can see in the lower left corner below... http://www.railimages.com/albums/timothyjohnston/aaj.jpg
QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote (In case the image won't enlarge you can see it at: http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan5a.jpg) P.S. TZ I'm often an early riser, as you will see from this post's timestamp. I haven't had a good night sleep in years. [|)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by twcenterprises Surely it's just a simple oversight, but where's the crossovers? I don't see any way to go from one main to the other. Or did I miss something? Brad
QUOTE: Originally posted by twcenterprises Surely it's just a simple oversight, but where's the crossovers? I don't see any way to go from one main to the other.
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant Aha! ("aha" is the ID of my railimages trackplan image) Aha! I found the key-- well anyway, A key to grandpacoyote's layout. A very small addition to the suggested space makes the difference-- a one foot deep shelf two feet long behind the closet door (behind the door only when the door is opened). The tail of a wye can go into that area. That makes the length of the layout on the right side of the plan 13 feet a a few inches instead of 11 feet and a few inches. The 26 inch radius of the bottom curve of the wye pushes its stem, and with it, the bottom edge of the layout to a diagonal across the bottom of the layout room instead of a straight-across edge. That suggests a "teardrop" shape space left in the central space. What can we put in a teardrop shaped space? That is the shape of a REVERSE LOOP! All of a sudden, then is a way to fit in the wye grandpacoyote wanted, plus a reverse loop that lets trains be turned quickly so an eastbound train can become its westbound counterpart, AND we have staging for 4 long trains. http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/aha.jpg What can we do to justify a reverse loop out in the middle of the desert? A prototype power plant is conveniently placed on the real railroad in this area, and power plants often have reverse loops for unit trains. We are not necessarily running unit trains but it gives a little justification for the appearance. And the plan leaves a little bit of "out-in-the-country" open space. I would like a longer icing dock, without a curve in the end of it. Wi***here was more room for town to be fully modeled instead of building backs, but hiding two long long staging tracks, even though stub ended, is probably worth it. I conceive of this layout as being seen from the NORTH side of the tracks, opposite of a usual map view where the right side of the map is east. With LEFT HAND running on the Santa Fe in this part of Arizona in the 1950s, that makes the inside track of the paired mainlines the eastbound track, running counterclockwise. Why? Because I wanted the icing dock to be convenient to eastbound reefer blocks running from Southern California and Arizona's Peavine line in the direction of Kansas City, Chicago and the East Coast, and the only place to fit in the icing dock seemed to be on the inside of the layout. I labeled the very obvious industries-- a bulk oil dealer, the depot with its freight house track., the power plant. The industries on the right wall need to be indoor/ warehouse type industries since the building backs need to hide the staging track. They might represent a farm supply and feed dealer.... and what else?
QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant I more or less finished my doodle of a Santa Fe/Route66/Arizona plan to fit grandpacoyote's space. http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/agz.jpg The double track mainline is level, with a four-track staging yard hidden under the scenery on two sides of the layout. Putting something other than mainline in front of the staging suggested a place to run a single track branch line that connects with the main at a junction town. I drew it as a lumber mill branch that sends several boxcars of lumber to the Santa Fe every few days. The layout operation would have a lot of run-through trains, a little local switching in the junction town, and run of a local up the branch. I have since thought of another idea for grandpacoyote's space which fits in more of the things he suggested---maybe I can get it drawn up in a few days.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher [While I was doing it I had a vision. I drew it up by hand and to me it looks really good. I'll have to scan it in and see if you like it also (yup, got it in below). Basically, move the yard into the center instead of on the side. It suddenly encompasses everything, double track main line, a working yard, a section for desert scenery, industrial switching. Then the final question, is the closet off limits. It would make a great 2 track hidden storage area. The idea is the trains start and finish with in the center yard. It is a out-and-back situation. The train is made up in the yard, it leaves and circles the center loop then crosses over to the outside loop. Around the outside loop it then crosses back over to the center loop. Around once again and into the center yard to be broken up. There is a drill track for the switcher to work the train once the road engines are cut off and sent to the shops. The tricky part is working the REA track once the passenger trains arrive. The run around for the upper right hand switchback, and left hand industries is the set of cross overs in the wyes. The town in the center top has its own run around. The industry in the lower right can only be switched by a counter clockwise train.
QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant Aha! I found the key-- well anyway, A key to grandpacoyote's layout. A very small addition to the suggested space makes the difference-- a one foot deep shelf two feet long behind the closet door (behind the door only when the door is opened).
QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant Now your plan has got LOTS of crossovers...three pairs I believe. I notice all of the crossovers are in the middle of tangents (stretches of straight track). Sometimes it helps to put crossovers at the beginning of a curve, letting the curved of the crossover turnouts form part of the curve. I wrote a little article about this in last years Model Railroad Planning 2005 Here is a rough drawing.
QUOTE: Runarounds are important. I notice your plan shows runarounds on two of the spurs in what looks like a small yard on the right side of the drawing. The runarounds are only long enough for one or two cars, and they take away greatly from the otherwise useable length of those spurs. A yard this small probably needs only one runaround, and if your mainline is not too busy, the right and left hand crossovers could be moved far enough apart to allow a locomotive to run around three or four cars. Another possibility is a yard lead that comes off the main several car lengths back from the yard ladder and connects back to the main further down. That way the lead can be used both as a lead and as a runaround, with a switcher leaving cars on the lead while it quickly goes out on the main to get around to the other end of the cars. Your yard on the left side seems somewhat small. Yards do NOT have to be all straight. Letting a lead into the yard begin on the bottom part of the drawing would add more useable length. It does not look like you can cut a switch for the yard into the top of the plan because of the width of layout taken up by the base of the wye. However, the stub ends of the yard spurs could curve around a bit on the inside of the mainline curve at upper left, to add 2 or 3 car lengths. I am trying to squeeze in a way to have yard tracks that can handle a 6, 8 or 9 car train.
QUOTE: By the way, I have been doing some prototype research on the Santa Fe in the area you plan to model. There was an article in Trains magaine January 2003 on operations and signaling on this particular segment of the ATSF. Even if prototype signalling is too complicated to consider, it has some useable information with schematic track diagrams of EACH TOWN and yard in the area you are modeling.
QUOTE: The article mentions that Santa Fe double track ran left-hand through this part of Arizona, with each track signaled one-way. Trains could not cross-over by signal indication to allow one train to overtake another, so wrong-hand running was rare, except for short local distances to access switching an industrial siding or part of a yard. Sidings off to the side were provided every ten miles or so to allow slower trains to move out of the way of higher-priority trains. Don't know how strictly you would want to adhere to that....
QUOTE: Some other info from looking at the Trains Jan03 article, WW2 era employee timetable and other sources-- railroad-served industries in this part of Arizona: ice plant for making ice and servicing through trains of refrigerator cars (reefer loads did not originate in your modeled area but in southern California, central California and Phoenix line and ran THROUGH your scene)... bulk petroleum dealer which receives tankcar loads of oil and gas and supplies nearby service stations by tanker truck... stockyard for loading cattle and other livestock... feed dealers for above livestock and related farm supplies... lumber and forest products interchanged at Holbrook from Apache Railroad, and lumber in the forested area around Falstaff. a power plant (coal burning?) near Joseph City but I do not know whether this existed in the 1950s. I could not find evidence for a lot of lineside industries in this area-- primarily the servicing of through trains.
QUOTE: Yards- diagram in Trains shows Holbrook yard 6 tracks wide, Winslow 10 tracks wide, Flagstaff- oops, I forgot to note. Wyes- Winslow, with 340 foot tail (about 4 feet in HO) Angell, with 550 foot tail (7 feet in HO) Flagstaff, with 170 foot tail (about 2 feet in HO, just long enough for a locomotive and tender and maybe one car) I am used to seeing wyes where a mainline railroad connects with a branch, OR where there is a wye or near a passenger station where a full-length passenger train can be turned. None of the real-life wyes in this part of Arizona fit that situation, and the Apache Railroad does not seem to have been connected to ATSF with a wye connection.
QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote "An industry outside the room", could ya tell me more what ya mean on that one, Im not quite getting it.