[Updated as of 3/29/06 ] Trackplan yet again. All comments Wanted and Welcomed.

[Anonymous]

[Updated as of 4/10/06.. new trackplan is below near the bottom of the thread on page 3]

Hello Gang,

Well, if you have been wondering where the Old Coyote has been; I’ve been burning the midnight oil and using all my spare time on getting the track plan for the spare bedroom done. I have come up with this basic idea along with some filler to show possible places for route 66 and some buildings (just to give me an idea, you know).

The Layout is set in Arizona during 1953 along sections of the AT&SF line running along side Route 66; the mainline curves are all 26” radius and the switches are #6’s and #4’s. I sure would appreciate any and all comment, questions, criticisms, suggests, kibitzes, or any thing you fine folks would like to pass my way on this plan as this is my first finished plan and I’m still very out in the woods.

I know a lot of people post track plans and it can get to be a bore so I want to thank the brave souls that take the time to look and comment ahead of time.



Pic should englare when clicked but it can also be seen at http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan1.JPG

Thanks Gang!

Peace
Coyote

[NZRMac]

For some strange reason this forum won't allow portrait pic to enlarge.

I like your plan, I thought some runaround tracks might be useful though. For instance the lower right yards, if you pull in forwards your loco is stuck. A turnout added in one end would allow you to uncouple and runaround your train and switch it from there.

Just a thought, Ken.

[Anonymous]

You probably need a runaround in the yard at the top also, otherwise, have fun.
Mike

[leighant]

I see what looks like 3 "towns", 2 with small yards and 1 with a wye.

Your railroad seems to be set up for primarily left-hand running. A train on the left-hand track running counterclockwise (inside track) can back into the yard on the right side of the plan. A train on the right-hand track running clockwise (outside track) can back into the yard at the top of the plan. I think of Santa Fe as mostly right-hand running, except for a short stretch in Arizona where the lines are divided and left-hand running is used because of favorable grades. You mentioned Arizona as a setting but your trackplan does not suggest the alinement of a hill-climbing situation. Mirror-imaging your plan would make the yards work for right-hand running.

One plus I see on your plan: the "yards" are arranged off of opposite mains so that the lead for one can overlap the other yard on the main that is not involved with yard switching. Two operators could switch at once without running into each other.

The yard on the right hand side seems to have only very short tracks-- 6 cars, 5 cars and 3 cars respectively. One would have to "double" the yard, ie pull cars from one track and then couple to those on another track, to get any kind of a train of 8, 9 or 10 cars. The very front track of that yard of course needs to ben kept open for access to the enginehouse.
On a railroad this short overall, it seems like a long lead to the enginehouse. Perhaps oil, water and sanding equipment is to be located along the lead? What is the switchback stub off one of the enginehouse tracks? It might be worthwhile as a place to spot a company service tankcar to service the engine facility....
(such as http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/aay.jpg , my N-scale kitbash from an old Concor/Kato car)
As a place to spot an additional locomotive, accessible only by switchback movement, it might be preferable to eliminate the switchback, make the two enginehouse track a loco length or more longer each, and allow placing 2 or more locos on each spur, cutting gaps in the track to allow cutoff for DC operation (not necessary if using DCC)

I am assuming this layout is small enough to be run with 2-pack DC, each track block controlled by a DPDT toggle to select one pack or the other.

The two long tracks at the top of the plan are 10 cars and 7 cars long respectively, long enough to be used as yard tracks on this size layout. But at least one is apparently dedicated to be used as an industry spur and a lead for a switchback industry spot.

My own prejudice for a layout of this size representing a slice of a major railroad: I don't think it is big enough for a "real working yard" that most of the trains on the layout come from. There ought to be a lot of trains that just "go through" the scene and only a handful that switch or go into a small yard. On this size layout, I would try to have STAGING for 2 or 3 mainline trains that can run through, giving the feel of a heavy mainline. Next I would have one town with a double-ended siding where a local might be made up with cars dropped off from a through freight. I would try to "do it well" for that one location, even if it took almost half the layout. Then I would fit in perhaps one additional "town" that might be only a single industrial spur or perhaps a freight house track behind a small depot. That's "1 and a half" visible towns plus hidden or disguised/inconspicuous staging. For single-track, it might be a twice-around loop for a layout this size. Double-track pretty much limits it to single track.

Another possibility-- double track main, with about half of the main hidden in staging. Well-modeled town trackage that represents junction of double-track mainline with single-track branch. Let the branch run as single track in front of the hidden staging to a mine or a small end-point. Just my prejudices.

See my N-scale 3x7 East Texas forest Santa Fe layout at
(overview) http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/aad.jpg
(trackplan) http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/acj.jpg

See my planned "Island Seaport" based on Santa Fe Galveston at
http://www.trainboard.com/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_topic/f/33/t/000725.html#000000
about same size as your layout but in N scale.

[fwright]

A nice plan overall.

I wonder about the length of the wye tail track beyond the crossover - it looks like it's about 12-14". This would be barely enough - with a short loco and a 40ft car - to get loco plus one car at a time into the industrial spurs. To fix, I recommend moving the crossover closer to the wye, giving more of a tail track to access the industrial spurs. Absolute minimum tail length should be the longest loco you would use for switching the spurs plus the longest car you plan on putting on the spurs.

yours in planning
Fred W

[Texas Zepher]

This isn't the same space you had originally posted, is it? What happened, switch rooms?

First I noticed there are lots of "switchback" industrial sidings. There are no assoicated run around tracks. There needs to be some way to let the locomotive get to the other side of the cars. Then some of the leads on the switchbacks (like the one on the left with the loco house? are too short. They must be able to hold the loco and at least one car.

I think I would try to fit at least one industry in the area "outside" the room. Lower left or right corners. Could be really interesting.

The tracks are all very aligned to the edges of the benchwork. Just a tiny bit of angle or curvature in the tracks can add some interest. Same for the highway, two long exactly straight sections at 90 degrees to one another .... Then the opposite for your grade crossings, I think the road would turn a little bit to hit the rails closer to a 90 degree crossing.

The two towns (top and right side) seem very samesh {If I can invent a word}. They both have lots of parallel track.

Here is a rather fuzzy picture of modular layout under construction that is 2 feet wide. Notice now not parallel or lined up with the bench work the track are.


Edit Again:--->
Looking at this again ...
While the two towns could be considered 4 because of how they are arranged on "sides" of the main (with only one crossover "in" a town). I think I would move or re-move the track to the rear of the mains and let the mains take up that extra space.

I would also change the radius on the outside main curve to 28.5" radius. I mean the track is already taking up that much space might as well use it to increase the radius.

[leighant]

Did you have any thoughts about specific towns being represented, industries or some particular part of Arizona? Or a general suggestion of the area. Desert or forested area?

[leighant]

I am so presumptuous as to play with your space and your "druthers" as to start and design a trackplan that has little relation to yours, just for the fun of it. I have only gotten as far as laying out a double-track mainline loop and staging and an area for a town that is a junction between ATSF double-track mainline and a branch.


Try this to make trackplan display larger:
http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/agx.jpg

One factor is the window. I thought it might be desireable to keep benchwork fairly narrow there for possible access to window. One double track mainline there and branch line lead suggest the orientation of the rest of the mainline-- top and left of room as long area for hidden staging, and right side of room with some wraparound corner curves for a town on the mainline where a branchline cuts off. I labeled the town "Junction Springs" just to suggest something both Arizona-sounding, and its operational function of a junction with branch. Also for identification, I labeled the end of the staging near the window as "Murdock" for the Route 66 TV show character, and the end of the staging at the bottom left as "Linn" for the late "Model Railroader" editor and trackplanning guru Linn Westcott.

Almost half of the mainline loop is devoted in hidden staging.... not so good. But it allows storing FOUR trains up to 10 feet long. That is about 21 or 22 40' boxcars in HO.
Or an FT A-B-B lashup, 16 freight cars and caboose. Or a passenger train with A-B-A F7s and 7 or 8 full-length cars.
On the four staging tracks, one could accomodate:
1 streamlined transcontinental passenger train
1 solid train of SFRD orange refrigerator cars
1 general manifest through freight train
1 local peddler freight switching stations along the line

These trains would not originate or terminate on the visible portion of the mainline but would appear, run through the scene and disappear, making a heavy flow of traffic between the midwest and the west coast. The passenger train would pull into the scene, make a station stop at Junction Springs for a minute or so, then pull out. Some time later, it would appear again representing a different passenger train. Through trains would generally not stop for switching but they would sometimes have to cross over to "wrong main" to overtake a slower train or move aside for a priority movement.

There is just no place on the layout big enough to represent a major division point yard, so the division point yards are "somewhere else"....imagined via staging. Also, the town of "Junction Springs" and its branch probably do not generate enough traffic to call for through freights to stop. (Also I am trying to design some sense of open space in Arizona rather than looking like a city switching district, solid industries.etc.) But if there is some produce generated off the branch, it might be cut into a reefer block at Junction Springs.
Most local traffic for Junction Springs and the branch would have come in on a mainline local train, having been cut off a through train at a major yard.

I drew primarily the mainline loop and posted it before going on to plot in the branch. Since the staging area would leave almost half the mainline as an unrealistic operation to view, it would be hidden, possibly behind a low hill. What to do with all that length of layout where the mainline should be shown? That is where a branch line could be laid out. I plan to do that over the next few days. The branch line would feature some switching, and a train could run from the branch to connect with the mainline local at Junction Springs.

A few details I already sketched in. I drew a Route 66 bridge over the mainline where it curves out of sight toward Murdock. The highway would extend to the left across the top of the plan. Mainline loop could be level, but branch might want to have a little grade partly for variety and partly to get it slightly above level of the mainline loop. The branch would probably not have any spurs etc in this area along top of the plan to allow a little of "out in the country", highway running alongside, possibly room for one or two features like an isolated tourist attract, Indian trading post, along the highway (and over the staging?)
The end of the branch could come out somewhere into the middle of the room, either from left side where wye was shown in original plan or possibly even extending to come from bottom of plan into middle of room, making a fairly long branch run. Have to see how it works.

Back to the Junction Springs scene, considered both as operational junction area and as scenic-structural area. I thought Route 66 bridge near "Murdock" could curve INTO background... some structure or scenic feature might hide the transition there. It would be SUGGESTED that the highway sweeps a hundred feet or more back "into the background" to curve around and parallel the mainline through town, about one block back from the track. A small to medium Santa Fe station would be in town near where the branch connects, and the BACK side of several businesses backed up to the tracks. There might be room for one industry spur on the other side of the mainline from the depot-- which puts it also on the other side of the tracks from the main downtown part of town. That might be a bulk oil dealer, where single cars of petroleum are spotted, a distribution-type industry frequently found in small towns. The depot would have one spur nearby for freight house and team track loads. Near the depot would be commercial businesses. Where Route 66 comes "out of the backdrop" we would be able to see the FRONTS of town businesses. (Thin flats and angle-cutoff bldgs) The area near the bottom right would be room for one or two industries that are on the edge of the town of Junction Springs.

Notice that the mainline loop goes as far into the corners as possible at the upper right and upper left corners, but is pulled back at the lower right and lower left to allow room for some industry spurs which can be BACKED INTO for switching by a train running "right-hand" on the outer track. There is room for a spur to an industry at the lower left of the plan near where the mainline disappears into Linn staging. This is meant to look like an isolated industry away from town, so that there is room for a little sense of "out in the country" on the bottom of the plan.

I have not yet drawn in where the liftup/ duckunder whatever should fit best on the bottom of the plan. One is needed but track arrangement may determine that. I also have not yet plotted in crossovers on the double-track mainline. At absolutely minimum one right-hand-to-left-hand and one left-to-right is needed, but don't yet know exactly where would be best.

I have a database reference of photos and station track plots for about 1800 towns on the Santa Fe (named places on the railroad, not necessarily places of habitation) and I may look through some of the Arizona towns to see what kinds of industries and track arrangements, and what kind of a branch might fit on this layout.

[Anonymous]

A plan you can have a lot of fun with. I'm not really adding anything, just want to emphasize a couple of the points made by others:

(1) lack of run-around track will, I fear, make your switching frustrating at times.
(2) Putting the track at a slight angle to the fascia will give it a much more interesting "llok" and you have plenty of space for this (only needs a few inches.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NZRMac

For some strange reason this forum won't allow portrait pic to enlarge.

I like your plan, I thought some runaround tracks might be useful though. For instance the lower right yards, if you pull in forwards your loco is stuck. A turnout added in one end would allow you to uncouple and runaround your train and switch it from there.

Just a thought, Ken.

Ken,

Thank you. Good advice, I have tried to implement it and will be posting the changed over plan tonight hopefully. *crosses fingers* Thanks again for catching that, I hadn't thought of it at all.

Peace

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leeferr

You probably need a runaround in the yard at the top also, otherwise, have fun.
Mike

Mike,

Thanks appreciate it. Have tried to fix that up. I hope to have a lot of fun with it [:)]Thank you for the imput.

Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

I see what looks like 3 "towns", 2 with small yards and 1 with a wye.

Your railroad seems to be set up for primarily left-hand running. A train on the left-hand track running counterclockwise (inside track) can back into the yard on the right side of the plan. A train on the right-hand track running clockwise (outside track) can back into the yard at the top of the plan. I think of Santa Fe as mostly right-hand running, except for a short stretch in Arizona where the lines are divided and left-hand running is used because of favorable grades. You mentioned Arizona as a setting but your trackplan does not suggest the alinement of a hill-climbing situation. Mirror-imaging your plan would make the yards work for right-hand running.

One plus I see on your plan: the "yards" are arranged off of opposite mains so that the lead for one can overlap the other yard on the main that is not involved with yard switching. Two operators could switch at once without running into each other.

The yard on the right hand side seems to have only very short tracks-- 6 cars, 5 cars and 3 cars respectively. One would have to "double" the yard, ie pull cars from one track and then couple to those on another track, to get any kind of a train of 8, 9 or 10 cars. The very front track of that yard of course needs to ben kept open for access to the enginehouse.
On a railroad this short overall, it seems like a long lead to the enginehouse. Perhaps oil, water and sanding equipment is to be located along the lead? What is the switchback stub off one of the enginehouse tracks? It might be worthwhile as a place to spot a company service tankcar to service the engine facility....
(such as http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/aay.jpg , my N-scale kitbash from an old Concor/Kato car)
As a place to spot an additional locomotive, accessible only by switchback movement, it might be preferable to eliminate the switchback, make the two enginehouse track a loco length or more longer each, and allow placing 2 or more locos on each spur, cutting gaps in the track to allow cutoff for DC operation (not necessary if using DCC)

I am assuming this layout is small enough to be run with 2-pack DC, each track block controlled by a DPDT toggle to select one pack or the other.

The two long tracks at the top of the plan are 10 cars and 7 cars long respectively, long enough to be used as yard tracks on this size layout. But at least one is apparently dedicated to be used as an industry spur and a lead for a switchback industry spot.

My own prejudice for a layout of this size representing a slice of a major railroad: I don't think it is big enough for a "real working yard" that most of the trains on the layout come from. There ought to be a lot of trains that just "go through" the scene and only a handful that switch or go into a small yard. On this size layout, I would try to have STAGING for 2 or 3 mainline trains that can run through, giving the feel of a heavy mainline. Next I would have one town with a double-ended siding where a local might be made up with cars dropped off from a through freight. I would try to "do it well" for that one location, even if it took almost half the layout. Then I would fit in perhaps one additional "town" that might be only a single industrial spur or perhaps a freight house track behind a small depot. That's "1 and a half" visible towns plus hidden or disguised/inconspicuous staging. For single-track, it might be a twice-around loop for a layout this size. Double-track pretty much limits it to single track.

Another possibility-- double track main, with about half of the main hidden in staging. Well-modeled town trackage that represents junction of double-track mainline with single-track branch. Let the branch run as single track in front of the hidden staging to a mine or a small end-point. Just my prejudices.

See my N-scale 3x7 East Texas forest Santa Fe layout at
(overview) http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/aad.jpg
(trackplan) http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/acj.jpg

See my planned "Island Seaport" based on Santa Fe Galveston at
http://www.trainboard.com/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_topic/f/33/t/000725.html#000000
about same size as your layout but in N scale.

Leighant,

Whew! that gave me a -lot- to think on, not even sure I followed all of it but I am trying to. [;)]
A lot of good council there, I am posting a new rework tonight based on the feedback I've been getting and I can tell you that I am certainly looking forward to hearing what you have to say on it.

Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright

A nice plan overall.

I wonder about the length of the wye tail track beyond the crossover - it looks like it's about 12-14". This would be barely enough - with a short loco and a 40ft car - to get loco plus one car at a time into the industrial spurs. To fix, I recommend moving the crossover closer to the wye, giving more of a tail track to access the industrial spurs. Absolute minimum tail length should be the longest loco you would use for switching the spurs plus the longest car you plan on putting on the spurs.

yours in planning
Fred W

Fred,

I totaly missed that and your point was well made I have lengthened the tail track off the wye to 2' 6" by following your advice and changing around some table lengths and isle spacing. Thanks greatly for the good advice.

Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

This isn't the same space you had originally posted, is it? What happened, switch rooms?

First I noticed there are lots of "switchback" industrial sidings. There are no assoicated run around tracks. There needs to be some way to let the locomotive get to the other side of the cars. Then some of the leads on the switchbacks (like the one on the left with the loco house? are too short. They must be able to hold the loco and at least one car.

I think I would try to fit at least one industry in the area "outside" the room. Lower left or right corners. Could be really interesting.

The tracks are all very aligned to the edges of the benchwork. Just a tiny bit of angle or curvature in the tracks can add some interest. Same for the highway, two long exactly straight sections at 90 degrees to one another .... Then the opposite for your grade crossings, I think the road would turn a little bit to hit the rails closer to a 90 degree crossing.

The two towns (top and right side) seem very samesh {If I can invent a word}. They both have lots of parallel track.

Here is a rather fuzzy picture of modular layout under construction that is 2 feet wide. Notice now not parallel or lined up with the bench work the track are.


Edit Again:--->
Looking at this again ...
While the two towns could be considered 4 because of how they are arranged on "sides" of the main (with only one crossover "in" a town). I think I would move or re-move the track to the rear of the mains and let the mains take up that extra space.

I would also change the radius on the outside main curve to 28.5" radius. I mean the track is already taking up that much space might as well use it to increase the radius.

TZ,
Hello my friend, good to see ya! The man that set me on the right "track" early on! [;)] Yes Sir as you astutely gauged the OL and I did indeed abandon the Garage for a Spare Bedroom. We looked into the total cost of making the garage fit for the layout and when the figure hit 4K+ even with us doing most of the work ourselves we moved on to use the spare bedroom at least for now [^]

I've tried to add some run arounds and will be posting the new plan tonight I hope. [:)] Many have pointed out the tracks running parallel to the edge and I'm trying to fix that but it's still boggling me so that fight goes on, hopefully I'll figure out an elegant way to fix that, still havent though. "An industry outside the room", could ya tell me more what ya mean on that one, Im not quite getting it.


I took your advice and did indeed increase my outer curve radii and it worked out just fine as you predicted *nods* I increased the outer curves to 28" and did a full recheck of all my track centers.

As always TZ thank you for your sagely imput, I look forward to hearing your fedback on the improved plan.

Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

Did you have any thoughts about specific towns being represented, industries or some particular part of Arizona? Or a general suggestion of the area. Desert or forested area?

Leighant,

I am primarily instrested in the section between Holbrook and Flagstaff. I must however admit that when I moved to a spare bedroom over a garage i had to abandon most if not all my druthers and accept a huge bundle of givens (or do I have that backwards, its late here, but I'm sure you followed my meaning). I'm sort of settling for what I can get over what I want, with the idea being that if I can get this done I'll have the experiance under my belt and a good increase in skills and learning that I can then take on to my 'dream' when the space manifests. Hope that wasn't too muddled an answer to a farely clear question. [;)]

Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

I am so presumptuous as to play with your space and your "druthers" as to start and design a trackplan that has little relation to yours, just for the fun of it. I have only gotten as far as laying out a double-track mainline loop and staging and an area for a town that is a junction between ATSF double-track mainline and a branch.

[:0] this is impressive sir and please feel free to engage in such "presumptions" with me anytime.. I am going to have to sit and seriously study this! I am impressed, to say the least, that you'd do this.. thank you sir. I'll try and fit my mind around it and give you some better answers when i'm not quite so groggy.

I'll post up what I did this week as well and would love to hear what you have to say it as well. In the meantime a big Thank you!

Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rails5

A plan you can have a lot of fun with. I'm not really adding anything, just want to emphasize a couple of the points made by others:

(1) lack of run-around track will, I fear, make your switching frustrating at times.
(2) Putting the track at a slight angle to the fascia will give it a much more interesting "llok" and you have plenty of space for this (only needs a few inches.

Rail,

Yes all good points that I hope to fix, if I can figure out how [:D] Thank you for the imput it sure is appreciated. and old silly coyote like me needs all the help he can to get his paws unstuck from track *laughs* Thanks again will see what I can do to adress those well made points.

Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

Ok gang here is the newest version with a good deal of changes put in based off the good advice that you all have supplied.

Info: The layout is set in Arizona, 1953-54, alongside the AT&SF tracks running parallel with old route 66 in the regions between Holbrook and Flagstaff.

The outside mainline curve radii is 28” inside mainline curve radii is 26”, track centers should be good, leads to Wye curve radii are 26”.

I also decreased some switchbacks, added in run-arounds, lengthened track and added in some more crossovers.

I increased the length and decreased the width of the lift out section (which will hopefully actually be a “roll out” section)

I know the tracks are still parallel to the fascia. I’m still not sure how to solve that and not loose a lot of track but I’m working on it in my head.

No staging and honestly not sure how to add any. Any advice on that would be a god send.

I have applied no grades yet to the over all layout but there will be a few and they will be fairly gently and low, mostly just for visual look. Any advice on this would also be greatly welcomed.


[In case the image won't enlarge you can see it at: http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan3.jpg]

Well that’s all I can think of though I’m sure I’ve left out something *chuckles*

Looking forward to hearing what you all think.

Peace.

Coyote

[leighant]

Now your plan has got LOTS of crossovers...three pairs I believe. I notice all of the crossovers are in the middle of tangents (stretches of straight track). Sometimes it helps to put crossovers at the beginning of a curve, letting the curved of the crossover turnouts form part of the curve. I wrote a little article about this in last years Model Railroad Planning 2005 Here is a rough drawing.


Runarounds are important. I notice your plan shows runarounds on two of the spurs in what looks like a small yard on the right side of the drawing. The runarounds are only long enough for one or two cars, and they take away greatly from the otherwise useable length of those spurs. A yard this small probably needs only one runaround, and if your mainline is not too busy, the right and left hand crossovers could be moved far enough apart to allow a locomotive to run around three or four cars.

Another possibility is a yard lead that comes off the main several car lengths back from the yard ladder and connects back to the main further down. That way the lead can be used both as a lead and as a runaround, with a switcher leaving cars on the lead while it quickly goes out on the main to get around to the other end of the cars.
Your yard on the left side seems somewhat small. Yards do NOT have to be all straight. Letting a lead into the yard begin on the bottom part of the drawing would add more useable length. It does not look like you can cut a switch for the yard into the top of the plan because of the width of layout taken up by the base of the wye. However, the stub ends of the yard spurs could curve around a bit on the inside of the mainline curve at upper left, to add 2 or 3 car lengths. I am trying to squeeze in a way to have yard tracks that can handle a 6, 8 or 9 car train.

By the way, I have been doing some prototype research on the Santa Fe in the area you plan to model. There was an article in Trains magaine January 2003 on operations and signaling on this particular segment of the ATSF. Even if prototype signalling is too complicated to consider, it has some useable information with schematic track diagrams of EACH TOWN and yard in the area you are modeling.

The article mentions that Santa Fe double track ran left-hand through this part of Arizona, with each track signaled one-way. Trains could not cross-over by signal indication to allow one train to overtake another, so wrong-hand running was rare, except for short local distances to access switching an industrial siding or part of a yard. Sidings off to the side were provided every ten miles or so to allow slower trains to move out of the way of higher-priority trains. Don't know how strictly you would want to adhere to that....

Some other info from looking at the Trains Jan03 article, WW2 era employee timetable and other sources-- railroad-served industries in this part of Arizona:
ice plant for making ice and servicing through trains of refrigerator cars (reefer loads did not originate in your modeled area but in southern California, central California and Phoenix line and ran THROUGH your scene)...
bulk petroleum dealer which receives tankcar loads of oil and gas and supplies nearby service stations by tanker truck...
stockyard for loading cattle and other livestock...
feed dealers for above livestock and related farm supplies...
lumber and forest products interchanged at Holbrook from Apache Railroad, and lumber in the forested area around Falstaff.
a power plant (coal burning?) near Joseph City but I do not know whether this existed in the 1950s.
I could not find evidence for a lot of lineside industries in this area-- primarily the servicing of through trains.

Yards- diagram in Trains shows Holbrook yard 6 tracks wide,
Winslow 10 tracks wide,
Flagstaff- oops, I forgot to note.

Wyes- Winslow, with 340 foot tail (about 4 feet in HO)
Angell, with 550 foot tail (7 feet in HO)
Flagstaff, with 170 foot tail (about 2 feet in HO, just long enough for a locomotive and tender and maybe one car) I am used to seeing wyes where a mainline railroad connects with a branch, OR where there is a wye or near a passenger station where a full-length passenger train can be turned. None of the real-life wyes in this part of Arizona fit that situation, and the Apache Railroad does not seem to have been connected to ATSF with a wye connection.

[leighant]

For what it's worth, here are links to a discussion on another forum of layouts with a similar theme-- Santa Fe in northern Arizona, Flagstagg and Winslow area

on rangust’s N Santa Fe in Arizona layout:,
“signature model” of Fred Harvey La Posada hotel at Winslow, AZ
early planning
http://forum.atlasrr.com/archive/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=40740&whichpage=1
progress
http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7258&SearchTerms=Posada
pages 5,7,9 are especially good

“signature model” of Hotel Monte Vista in Flagstaff, AZ
http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18006&SearchTerms=Monte,Vista


Verne Niner’s “Across the Great Divide” Santa Fe Arizona layout
http://members.cox.net/vgniner/home.html

Yes, I realize these are N scale and you are building in HO but they might give you some ideas, and they may have some things you haven't seen because they were on an N scale forum.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote
"An industry outside the room", could ya tell me more what ya mean on that one, Im not quite getting it.

AH, when I first looked at the picture I assumed that the "road" along the bottom part of the layout was a wall. Later I realized my mistake and thought I had gone back and edited it appropriately. Apparently I did not. What I should have said was an industry along the south edge of the layout.

Now, I think you have gone overboard on the number of run around tracks. In the "yard" on the left side they are just consuming storage track space. I would eliminate both the crossovers that are actually in the yard. And flip the one that is between the two mains to be on the first yard track. I would eliminate the really short swichback off the engine house.

More later. --->> See post on next page

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

Now your plan has got LOTS of crossovers...three pairs I believe. I notice all of the crossovers are in the middle of tangents (stretches of straight track). Sometimes it helps to put crossovers at the beginning of a curve, letting the curved of the crossover turnouts form part of the curve. I wrote a little article about this in last years Model Railroad Planning 2005 Here is a rough drawing.

Leighant,

Sir, first let me take the time to thank you for your much appreciated input. I have found your advice and comments to be both thought provoking and challenging. I acquired a copy of 2005’s Model Railroad Planning yesterday and look forward to reading your article; it looks like it will help me a lot and may save me a great deal of space.

QUOTE: Runarounds are important. I notice your plan shows runarounds on two of the spurs in what looks like a small yard on the right side of the drawing. The runarounds are only long enough for one or two cars, and they take away greatly from the otherwise useable length of those spurs. A yard this small probably needs only one runaround, and if your mainline is not too busy, the right and left hand crossovers could be moved far enough apart to allow a locomotive to run around three or four cars.

Another possibility is a yard lead that comes off the main several car lengths back from the yard ladder and connects back to the main further down. That way the lead can be used both as a lead and as a runaround, with a switcher leaving cars on the lead while it quickly goes out on the main to get around to the other end of the cars.
Your yard on the left side seems somewhat small. Yards do NOT have to be all straight. Letting a lead into the yard begin on the bottom part of the drawing would add more useable length. It does not look like you can cut a switch for the yard into the top of the plan because of the width of layout taken up by the base of the wye. However, the stub ends of the yard spurs could curve around a bit on the inside of the mainline curve at upper left, to add 2 or 3 car lengths. I am trying to squeeze in a way to have yard tracks that can handle a 6, 8 or 9 car train.

I must admit, to my embarrassment, that I completely forgot to put a decent lead track into (what I hope will be Winslow) yard. But a quick run back to my copy of Frank Ellison on Model Railroads helped me see where I had messed up. I would rather not use the main as part of the Lead’s runaround but I simply may have no choice with my space limitation; I shy away from it only because I had “don’t foul the main” driven into my head as first advice when I got into the hobby. Also I may simply be operating too far above the bar here. I have a scant years worth of experience in the hobby; most of which has been spent reading the grand old men, Armstrong and Ellison and getting fine advice here from good guys such as TZ and Space Mouse and so many others I could possibly name them all. The end result of this is that I often receive good advice that I have no understanding of *chuckles* and so off I go to study and puzzle my puzzler till I get it.

QUOTE: By the way, I have been doing some prototype research on the Santa Fe in the area you plan to model. There was an article in Trains magaine January 2003 on operations and signaling on this particular segment of the ATSF. Even if prototype signalling is too complicated to consider, it has some useable information with schematic track diagrams of EACH TOWN and yard in the area you are modeling.

What fantastic news! I went to Kalmbach’s back issue page and sent off for this issue as well as the December 1997 issue or Trains that has an article on ‘Hot spot” Holbrook, Arizona’ and the 2000 issue of Railfan & Railroad with an article on ‘Route 66: Main Street of the Southwest’ – like a silly fool I never even thought to check back issues of Trains. Thank you so much this has been a great boon and I’ve sent off any further redesign until I can get a look at the schematics track diagrams you’ve mentioned; something I have been looking for several months now

QUOTE: The article mentions that Santa Fe double track ran left-hand through this part of Arizona, with each track signaled one-way. Trains could not cross-over by signal indication to allow one train to overtake another, so wrong-hand running was rare, except for short local distances to access switching an industrial siding or part of a yard. Sidings off to the side were provided every ten miles or so to allow slower trains to move out of the way of higher-priority trains. Don't know how strictly you would want to adhere to that....

Here my ignorance shows. I am afraid I don’t understand the meaning of “Santa Fe double track ran left-hand”. Left-hand running- Right-hand running? Could you possibly educate me on this, it would be greatly appreciated. As to the sidings every ten miles; if I had more space it would be nice, I think, to put at least a suggestion or tip of the hat into the layout of this. I do happen to have a pretty good Super Chief set and would like to run it someday and such sidings would add to possible operations enjoyment of doing that I think.

QUOTE: Some other info from looking at the Trains Jan03 article, WW2 era employee timetable and other sources-- railroad-served industries in this part of Arizona:
ice plant for making ice and servicing through trains of refrigerator cars (reefer loads did not originate in your modeled area but in southern California, central California and Phoenix line and ran THROUGH your scene)...
bulk petroleum dealer which receives tankcar loads of oil and gas and supplies nearby service stations by tanker truck...
stockyard for loading cattle and other livestock...
feed dealers for above livestock and related farm supplies...
lumber and forest products interchanged at Holbrook from Apache Railroad, and lumber in the forested area around Falstaff.
a power plant (coal burning?) near Joseph City but I do not know whether this existed in the 1950s.
I could not find evidence for a lot of lineside industries in this area-- primarily the servicing of through trains.

Again Fantastic! This is the sort of info I have been scraping to find. I do know of the Ralston Purina plant in the area and from what I have been able to find the Power Plant near Joseph City should have been there in the 1953-54 time period (my info on this may be wrong however).

QUOTE: Yards- diagram in Trains shows Holbrook yard 6 tracks wide,
Winslow 10 tracks wide,
Flagstaff- oops, I forgot to note.

Wyes- Winslow, with 340 foot tail (about 4 feet in HO)
Angell, with 550 foot tail (7 feet in HO)
Flagstaff, with 170 foot tail (about 2 feet in HO, just long enough for a locomotive and tender and maybe one car) I am used to seeing wyes where a mainline railroad connects with a branch, OR where there is a wye or near a passenger station where a full-length passenger train can be turned. None of the real-life wyes in this part of Arizona fit that situation, and the Apache Railroad does not seem to have been connected to ATSF with a wye connection.

Wonderful information, again none of which I’ve ever encountered until now. You’ve helped turn on a light in the dark room I was just fumbling around in *chuckles*. No the Apache Railroad doesn’t connect with a wye from what I have been able to find out either, I’d love to have a connection to it but again that old bugaboo of space, ah well.

Thank you again so much for this great lead and information it will be put to good use.

Peace.

Coyote

P.S. My apologies for rambling on so, but this information has gotten me excited about all this again. [;)]

[Texas Zepher]

I hate having the last post on a page. One never knows if anyone saw it. But reguardless...here is the "more" that I promised. Instead of trying to explain I thought I would draw a picture. I removed most of the crossovers and was left with this:



While I was doing it I had a vision. I drew it up by hand and to me it looks really good. I'll have to scan it in and see if you like it also (yup, got it in below). Basically, move the yard into the center instead of on the side. It suddenly encompasses everything, double track main line, a working yard, a section for desert scenery, industrial switching.

Then the final question, is the closet off limits. It would make a great 2 track hidden storage area.


The idea is the trains start and finish with in the center yard. It is a out-and-back situation. The train is made up in the yard, it leaves and circles the center loop then crosses over to the outside loop. Around the outside loop it then crosses back over to the center loop. Around once again and into the center yard to be broken up. There is a drill track for the switcher to work the train once the road engines are cut off and sent to the shops.

The tricky part is working the REA track once the passenger trains arrive.

The run around for the upper right hand switchback, and left hand industries is the set of cross overs in the wyes. The town in the center top has its own run around. The industry in the lower right can only be switched by a counter clockwise train.

[leighant]

I more or less finished my doodle of a Santa Fe/Route66/Arizona plan to fit grandpacoyote's space.

http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/agz.jpg

The double track mainline is level, with a four-track staging yard hidden under the scenery on two sides of the layout. Putting something other than mainline in front of the staging suggested a place to run a single track branch line that connects with the main at a junction town. I drew it as a lumber mill branch that sends several boxcars of lumber to the Santa Fe every few days. The layout operation would have a lot of run-through trains, a little local switching in the junction town, and run of a local up the branch.

I have since thought of another idea for grandpacoyote's space which fits in more of the things he suggested---maybe I can get it drawn up in a few days.

[leighant]

Aha! ("aha" is the ID of my railimages trackplan image)
Aha! I found the key-- well anyway, A key to grandpacoyote's layout. A very small addition to the suggested space makes the difference-- a one foot deep shelf two feet long behind the closet door (behind the door only when the door is opened). The tail of a wye can go into that area. That makes the length of the layout on the right side of the plan 13 feet a a few inches instead of 11 feet and a few inches.

The 26 inch radius of the bottom curve of the wye pushes its stem, and with it, the bottom edge of the layout to a diagonal across the bottom of the layout room instead of a straight-across edge.
That suggests a "teardrop" shape space left in the central space. What can we put in a teardrop shaped space? That is the shape of a REVERSE LOOP! All of a sudden, then is a way to fit in the wye grandpacoyote wanted, plus a reverse loop that lets trains be turned quickly so an eastbound train can become its westbound counterpart, AND we have staging for 4 long trains.



http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/aha.jpg

What can we do to justify a reverse loop out in the middle of the desert? A prototype power plant is conveniently placed on the real railroad in this area, and power plants often have reverse loops for unit trains. We are not necessarily running unit trains but it gives a little justification for the appearance.
And the plan leaves a little bit of "out-in-the-country" open space.

I would like a longer icing dock, without a curve in the end of it. Wi***here was more room for town to be fully modeled instead of building backs, but hiding two long long staging tracks, even though stub ended, is probably worth it.

I conceive of this layout as being seen from the NORTH side of the tracks, opposite of a usual map view where the right side of the map is east. With LEFT HAND running on the Santa Fe in this part of Arizona in the 1950s, that makes the inside track of the paired mainlines the eastbound track, running counterclockwise. Why? Because I wanted the icing dock to be convenient to eastbound reefer blocks running from Southern California and Arizona's Peavine line in the direction of Kansas City, Chicago and the East Coast, and the only place to fit in the icing dock seemed to be on the inside of the layout.

I labeled the very obvious industries-- a bulk oil dealer, the depot with its freight house track., the power plant. The industries on the right wall need to be indoor/ warehouse type industries since the building backs need to hide the staging track. They might represent a farm supply and feed dealer.... and what else?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant
Aha! I found the key-- well anyway, A key to grandpacoyote's layout. A very small addition to the suggested space makes the difference-- a one foot deep shelf two feet long behind the closet door (behind the door only when the door is opened).

I had already used that space but not for a Wye. I like it, except it is suddenly a bit short of industries.

Is there anyway to smoo***he reversing loop further into the corner instead of having it on the most outside (from the wall track). Even if it had to cross over one or several of the other "mains" it could allow the loop to be further back and the access hatch not so much needed.

[leighant]

"a bit short of industries"... I believe most of the medium-sized towns on the northern Arizona portion of the Santa Fe are also short of local industries. Ag supply, ag shipping, lumber mill, power plant, bulk oil...plus servicing for the through trains-- ice plant, engine service, stock loading pens.

Admittedly, I drew in a long long line of building backs to hide staging, and those types of industries are primarily warehouse type structures, "boxes", without room for a lot of outside details.
But the main show on this section of ATSF is the parade of through trains, rather than lineside industry switching.
One way to build in a little more operation- designate one of the trains that appears from staging as coming off a branch with cars that need to be switched into a through train. A little YARD switching, as opposed to industry spur switching. And that's what yards at a point like this are usually used for- rather than a place to originate, terminate and store trains.
"Industry" switching- LCL freight, bulk oil, 2, 3 or 4 warehouse slots on 2 spurs, powerplant. 6 spurs, 18 cars. (A stockyard track would be desireable if it could be added.)
Yard switching- 2 double-ended yard tracks off the mainline, able to handle cut of 10, 12 or more cars each.
Through train running- 4 staging tracks for trains up to 15 or more cars long.
Enroute reefer icing- for perhaps 5 cars at a time...
Loco servicing- room on wye to turn, fuel and water at least one local locomotive from branchline service.

[Texas Zepher]

Well, now all we need is Grandpa to log in and see if he likes any of our ideas[:)]

[Anonymous]

[

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher
[While I was doing it I had a vision. I drew it up by hand and to me it looks really good. I'll have to scan it in and see if you like it also (yup, got it in below). Basically, move the yard into the center instead of on the side. It suddenly encompasses everything, double track main line, a working yard, a section for desert scenery, industrial switching.

Then the final question, is the closet off limits. It would make a great 2 track hidden storage area.


The idea is the trains start and finish with in the center yard. It is a out-and-back situation. The train is made up in the yard, it leaves and circles the center loop then crosses over to the outside loop. Around the outside loop it then crosses back over to the center loop. Around once again and into the center yard to be broken up. There is a drill track for the switcher to work the train once the road engines are cut off and sent to the shops.

The tricky part is working the REA track once the passenger trains arrive.

The run around for the upper right hand switchback, and left hand industries is the set of cross overs in the wyes. The town in the center top has its own run around. The industry in the lower right can only be switched by a counter clockwise train.

TZ, Hello…

First let me say how sorry I am for not having responded sooner; I have been ill and not had the gumption or clear headedness to sit down and respond to the forum. I apologize for having let things go for so long particularly after you and leighant were so kind to offer you input.

Let me start off by saying I love this plan you sketched out! You are 100% right it does have everything I am looking for: double track main line, a working yard, a section for desert scenery, industrial switching. I have printed out the plan and I am trying to see if I can draw it out in 3rd PlanIT, (which is what I use here for track plans).

After having looked at this drawing, and doing quite a bit of reading while I was ill, I have decided that at this point based on the limitations of space I have it is probably far better for me to “freelance” the Prototype and try and model a representation of Arizona in ’54 on the Santa Fe, rather than try and do an actual part of the line; that will have to wait for more space. That being said, what you have put up really seems to capture the ‘feel’ and I am fired up to try and get it down.

If my energy lasts I will try and post up some track plans, based off your excellent idea, later today.

Thank you again TZ you continue to be an inspiration to me.

Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

[

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

I more or less finished my doodle of a Santa Fe/Route66/Arizona plan to fit grandpacoyote's space.

http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/agz.jpg

The double track mainline is level, with a four-track staging yard hidden under the scenery on two sides of the layout. Putting something other than mainline in front of the staging suggested a place to run a single track branch line that connects with the main at a junction town. I drew it as a lumber mill branch that sends several boxcars of lumber to the Santa Fe every few days. The layout operation would have a lot of run-through trains, a little local switching in the junction town, and run of a local up the branch.

I have since thought of another idea for grandpacoyote's space which fits in more of the things he suggested---maybe I can get it drawn up in a few days.

Leighant,

Hello, as I said to TZ above let me apologize for having not responded earlier, I am afraid sickness kept me away. But, I’m back and raring to go.

I like this plan; it could easily be Holbrook with the logging spur being the Apache Railway line up to Snowflake. Very well done, Sir! I must admit that somehow during being sick I completely missed this post and only caught TZ’s plan above and your Aha!’ plan below. So this is a pleasant surprise to me; I’m going to download the picture and print it out and look over it. Hopefully I’ll have an intelligent response and questions for you in a few days.

However, let me say thank you! I deeply appreciate all the help you and the other folks here have been, it’s a great encouragement for someone still very green to all this to get such fine advice and feedback from the seasoned guys. Thank you again for sharing your time with a FNG. [;)]

Peace.
Coyote

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