I've never built a model railroad before. I want to build a small model railroad with an insudtrial switching area but I'm noticing how ridiculously expensive turnouts are. like 20-30 dollars for a single turnout??? that adds up super quick. is there any way to get them cheaper?
Building my first layout, 4x8 contemporary urban area in HO scale
Order from an online store like model train stuff. Of course you need to order enough to offset the shipping cost.
Paul
They are expensive because they are difficult to manufacture and must be precision in order to operate reliably.
Once you have suffered with a cheap turnout, the expensinve ones look like a bargain.
On my layout, between the turnout, the Tortoise, wiring, and control I think I am spending about $50.00-$60.00 per turnout.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
You can still buy Atlas Custom Line turnouts on eBay for as little as $16. I wouldn't consider the price of turnouts as "ridiculously expensive" even at $20. Yes, the hobby can be expensive, but I wouldn't necessarily put turnouts in that category.
Rich
Alton Junction
You can still buy Shinohara turnouts on e-bay for less than $12.
We are veering dangerously close to the "topic we all know about and like to talk about but are forbidden to discuss in yet another thread." It does seem that turnouts such as Peco (and I use Code 100 Insulfrog -- the tooling is a proven quality and which was presumably long since paid for --and also Peco Code 83) went up sharply in price just within the last several years after remaining static for a long time.
I wonder if this is an offshoot of the much discussed shortage of Atlas track that we all remember from about that time. I think that was a shock to the system for model railroading and hobby shops, and the disruption to normal supply changed pricing for track, and having learned what the market was willing to pay, things won't go back to where they were. Just my theory.
Dave Nelson
Don't forget that Peco comes from ENgland, so exchange rates figure in there. And other fancy ones like Tillig, from Germany.
Want cheap turnoutsd? Build them yourself. Then they don't coast much more than flex track - depending on which rail you use, the only way to obtain matching rail for turnouts may be to strip it off flex track. Turnouts have always been more expensive than straight, curved, or flex sections. Even back in the day everyone loves to talke about when an Atlas Custom Line was $4.95. There's far more involved in making a turnout accurately, especially ones that actually carry the poiwer through like Atlas - the frog area has multiple layers of metal and plastic. A piece of any sort of other track is simply 2 rails held in a fixture the appropriate distance apart and backfilled with plastic. The tool costs for a turnout are likely a magnitude higher than for flex track, maybe more. ANd with with the precision requirement, said tooling wears out faster and must be renewed - a double whammy on cost. It's not some grand conspiracy to separate modelerts from their money - how many model building companies are counted among the wealthiest corporations in the world? Pretty sure that would be a big fat 0.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Excellent points, Randy. I don't think that a lot of people realize how elaborate and complex a turnut can be. I found out when I had to solder some underside jumpers that came loose on one.
I hate to have to say the obvious (before Sheldon jumps in and beats me to it... ), but if you have to ask, you shouldn't probably be in the game.
I recall, for those of us old enough to remember, that skit with Vincent Price and Deano on the latter's show, where Price is behind a perfume counter at a department store. Deano staggers up and asks for the most expensive perfume.
In his nasal twang, Vincent Price reaches and extracts a bottle of 'Joy'. He names it, and Dean asks for a whiff. After it is done, Dean says, "That's great. How much can I get for $5?" With indignant haste, Price whisks the bottle behind him, and glaring at Dean, he hisses, "You've just had it!"
Okay, back to reality. What you can't purchase responsibly commercially for any purpose, not just hobbies, you must either craft yourself or do without.
Good points indeed.
I remember when Atlas turnouts were five bucks back in the 70s. I had problems with those. I don't believe there was much more of a choice of any better quality available at the time. I remember 90% of my derailments were on the turnouts and would have gladly paid more for Less Problems back then with my hard-earned lawn mower route money.
The old saying you get what you pay for is true. I'm so glad I was indecisive in my decision of what brand turnout I was going to buy as price was not an issue. I ended up with the most current release PECO Unifrog turnouts because of this. It was a tough decision and it was so hard for me not to go with that beautiful prototypical ME track but in the end I had my reasons.
The cosmetic spikes do not hold the rail in place and I are strictly cosmetic unlike any other N gauge track. The rail is embedded in the ties. The rail joiners actually slip into a cubby housing in the ties on these new switch tracks. And they have individual -U- notched ties for fillers at the joiners for the Flex Track.
They weren't that expensive comparatively speaking. I have all the confidence I will not have any problems as they are so robust and superior in quality. I will need to be purchasing more but I have enough for now to do my twice around Main Line and double line. Enough to finally get me rollin
P.S. Here's a question for you guys I've always wondered. There was a shortage of right turnouts. They were back ordered and I had a hard time finding them. Why is it that every layout needs more right turnouts then left?
TF
Right hand turnouts because we tend to run our train clockwise and alot of are layouts have the mainlign near the front so only place to go is to the right.
Yes, Selector is right, if you have to ask "how much", you can't afford it.
My father suggested there is a list of such things, boats, fast cars, swimming pools, and no doubt, model trains.
In my 50 plus years in this hobby, I have used TruScale turnouts, I have built my own, I have used Atlas Custom Line turnouts, and I have used a few Shinohara/Walthers turnouts.
Personally, I don;t know why some people seem to have problems with Atlas turnouts?
I have been using the code 83 versions since they came out, they work fine for me.
PECO makes a very high quality product, with a price to match. A product full of features I don't like and don't want, so I don't use them.
As for other brands, again, for me, Atlas Custom Line work just fine. and many of my friends who have built large layouts with them say the same thing, why spend more?
Sheldon
Track fiddler P.S. Here's a question for you guys I've always wondered. There was a shortage of right turnouts. They were back ordered and I had a hard time finding them. Why is it that every layout needs more right turnouts then left?
I dunno, but I just finished trying to take a head-count of turnouts on my layout, but kept getting confused, not remembering if I'd counted everything in each aisle, or if I'd done both levels where the layout is double-decked.I don't know if it's an accurate count, but I came up with a total of 88 turnouts. Of those 88, three were wyes, and one was a three-way. For the remaining 84, it was split 42-left/42-right.
If they had truly been expensive, I wouldn't have that many, although I must confess that the majority of them go back quite a few years.
Wayne
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PECO makes a very high quality product, with a price to match. A product full of features I don't like and don't want, so I don't use them. As for other brands, again, for me, Atlas Custom Line work just fine. and many of my friends who have built large layouts with them say the same thing, why spend more?
Two reasons.
One, Peco turnouts are 3 inches shorter thab Atlas turnouts - - - real space savers.
Two, Peco turnouts are spring loaded, so I don't need switch motors.
rrebell Right hand turnouts because we tend to run our train clockwise and alot of are layouts have the mainlign near the front so only place to go is to the right
Right hand turnouts because we tend to run our train clockwise and alot of are layouts have the mainlign near the front so only place to go is to the right
If the industry is between the main and the backdrop, a left hand works - and a double ended passing track needs one of each.
As for NASCAR, they do run a couple of road courses where they have to turn both ways. Some teams even hire a 'ringer' driver with road racing experience, but the last time that ever paid off was Mark Donohue in 1973. The most consistent road course winners are regular drivers, with Jeff Gordon on top with 9 road course wins.
So do not fear going both ways - even on a small layout!
If you want less expensive turnouts buy a bundle of rail, bag of spikes and some ties and make your own. They aren't really difficult to make youself and definitely look better than the commercial stuff. Also eliminates the sometimes scarce availabilty issue.
oldline1
Peco turnouts are great turnouts and I've used them a whole lot.
For me the only negative is the slight "cheat" on the frog angle where they have a curve in place of what is traditionally a little piece of tangent. This was done to save that space talked about by one of the posts above. Some brass steam engines do not like that little curve and will derail on even the longest radius Peco turnout as a result.
For everything else, and I do mean everything--I have yet to find any non-brass articulated, DDA40X Centennial diesel, SD90MAC-H, or big 4-8-4 that is unable to handle the largest radius Peco turnouts. The double slip turnout can be a bit hairy for some articulateds, though, as will perhaps certain legs of the three-way turnout. The biggest issue with those, if I recall, is that on the Oriental Limited Powerhouse USRA 2-8-8-2, all lead and trailing trucks need to have a spring keeping downforce on them, or they don't like the Peco double slip and/or three-way turnouts.
John
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL PECO makes a very high quality product, with a price to match. A product full of features I don't like and don't want, so I don't use them. As for other brands, again, for me, Atlas Custom Line work just fine. and many of my friends who have built large layouts with them say the same thing, why spend more? Why spend more? Two reasons. One, Peco turnouts are 3 inches shorter thab Atlas turnouts - - - real space savers. Two, Peco turnouts are spring loaded, so I don't need switch motors. Rich
Why spend more?
Agreed, if the spring loaded thing works for your situation, then it is worth it.
As for the size thing, they are not really three inches smaller. Lay a PECO on top of and Atlas and line up the frog location.
The PECO is a little shorter from the frog to the end of the points, because it has a slightly sharper closure radius.
The Atlas turnout has the extended straight section past the frog for a very good reason. Atlas turnouts are designed to make yard ladders with 2" track centers without using any small spacer tracks.
That extended part of the straight route can be cut back if necessary.
Sheldon, I agree with you on the frog rail distance, but I was referring to the overall length of the Peco versus the Atlas Custom Line, 9 inches versus 12 inches.
Even Fast Tracks turnouts, which I make and use, cost a bit over $12 each for materials, if you use their tie strips (about $3.50 each, I believe). But if you're going to need a lot of the same size switches, spending a couple hundred bucks on the tools will make the turnouts cheaper over the long haul.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
richhotrain Sheldon, I agree with you on the frog rail distance, but I was referring to the overall length of the Peco versus the Atlas Custom Line, 9 inches versus 12 inches. Rich
Do you understand why it is longer?
Huh
Just sitting on my stoop enjoying the perfect 66 degree weather, the Fall day crickets, an ice cold beer and the Switch Track Wars
ATLANTIC CENTRAL As for other brands, again, for me, Atlas Custom Line work just fine. and many of my friends who have built large layouts with them say the same thing, why spend more? Sheldon
I often agree with Sheldon, we see eye to eye on many things. As for turnouts when I converted from Lionel 027 to HO scale in 1951 I was a broke 14 year old teenager with only paper route money. I made my turnouts with iron rail until I got to the point I could afford to buy them.Fortunately my cash flow timing worked out when Atlas came out with brass rails. I bought Atlas turnouts back then and stuck with them over the years.I went with Atlas code 83 Custom Line Turnouts in 1989 on my new and final layout. I used 23 Atlas turnouts and now some 31 years later I have replaced a total of 5, two with Peco curved turnouts (before the Atlas curved turnouts) and three 27 year old failed Atlas turnouts. The three turnouts that failed were the most used turnouts on my layout.I do like the Peco Spring and modified the 3 new Atlas Custom Line replacements using a Mel Mod and Peco switch machines.
The modified Atlas turnouts work great so if I need to replace any more of my turnouts they will get the mod too.When I couldn’t get any of the expensive double crossovers to pass my Rivarossi articulateds with pizza cutter flanges I made my own using Atlas Custom Line #6 turnouts.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Lastspikemike Peco are better made and cost more accordingly. I'm pretty sure they're actually made in the UK. Atlas are not as well made, in China and their QA is not to god right at moment. The longer double curved turnouts are particularly poor, left hand bring worse than right hand for no apparent reason. Custom line Atlas are the ones to buy if choosing Atlas. I bought two Wye turnouts which had too short throwbars installed. Atlas has yet to replace these or even supply the correct longer throwbars so that their proprietary turnout motors will actually clip in as designed. If don't power your turnouts then Peco provide the additional benefit of being spring loaded so the fingertip switching "machine" works fine as long as you can reach. Also, the spring allows a train to run the turnout from the heel of the frog when lined against it without derailing. If you power your turnouts then Peco offers a very robust motor system and their lever type passing contact switches to operate them are excellent and ergonomic. Atlas turnout motors and actuating switches are cheaper and deservedly so. They are handy but not the best choice. The top line Custom Line turnouts from Atlas are not compatible with their standard surface mount switch motor but otherwise they are quite good value, QA problems aside. If you use these solenoid systems I recommend you add a Capacitive Discharge unit in circuit to power all the switch motors. You get more positive actuation and the CDU protects the solenoids from receiving continuous power should an Atlas switch fail. Peco also makes a better looking CDU but if you use their high quality switches to power the turnout solenoids you won't be burning those out anyway. I still fit a Peco CDU for its very positive actuation. Walthers has just released a layout control system which looks very good, utilizing servos and circuit boards. Going after the Tortoise market. You don't need a CDU for servo motor switches. I predict if you build (or lay) your own turnouts you will quickly discover why ready made seem expensive. They aren't really, they are good value for the time and effort you can save.
Peco are better made and cost more accordingly. I'm pretty sure they're actually made in the UK. Atlas are not as well made, in China and their QA is not to god right at moment. The longer double curved turnouts are particularly poor, left hand bring worse than right hand for no apparent reason. Custom line Atlas are the ones to buy if choosing Atlas. I bought two Wye turnouts which had too short throwbars installed. Atlas has yet to replace these or even supply the correct longer throwbars so that their proprietary turnout motors will actually clip in as designed.
If don't power your turnouts then Peco provide the additional benefit of being spring loaded so the fingertip switching "machine" works fine as long as you can reach. Also, the spring allows a train to run the turnout from the heel of the frog when lined against it without derailing.
If you power your turnouts then Peco offers a very robust motor system and their lever type passing contact switches to operate them are excellent and ergonomic.
Atlas turnout motors and actuating switches are cheaper and deservedly so. They are handy but not the best choice. The top line Custom Line turnouts from Atlas are not compatible with their standard surface mount switch motor but otherwise they are quite good value, QA problems aside.
If you use these solenoid systems I recommend you add a Capacitive Discharge unit in circuit to power all the switch motors. You get more positive actuation and the CDU protects the solenoids from receiving continuous power should an Atlas switch fail. Peco also makes a better looking CDU but if you use their high quality switches to power the turnout solenoids you won't be burning those out anyway. I still fit a Peco CDU for its very positive actuation.
Walthers has just released a layout control system which looks very good, utilizing servos and circuit boards. Going after the Tortoise market. You don't need a CDU for servo motor switches.
I predict if you build (or lay) your own turnouts you will quickly discover why ready made seem expensive. They aren't really, they are good value for the time and effort you can save.
A few thoughts.......
If we could take a magic poll of all Atlas turnout users, working with flex track, and building a moderately advanced model railroad, I bet we would find the following:
None of them use the Atlas "Snap Switch" product except maybe to model urban industrial trackage - they all use Custom Line. The Snap Switch is a train set product designed to fit into 18" and 22" radius sectional track.
The next thing we will find is that few users, likely less than 5%, of Atlas Custom Line turnouts, are using Atlas twin coil switch machines. Most are using Tortise, servos, or some similar product. Selecting a turnout has little to do with selecting a turnout motor. I have only owned two or three Atlas twin coil switch machines in my 55 years of modeling.
I can't speak to your problem with the Atlas "wye", every one I ever bought came with the same reversable throwbar as all my other code 83 Custom Line turnouts.
I can't speak to the usefullness or quality of the new curved turnouts, I don't have any, and will not be buying any. They are way below my minimum radius requirements.
I can't speak to the quality of every batch of turnouts Atlas has every made - neither can you. Country of origin has little to do with that. I have over 100 Atlas code 83 Custom Line turnouts manufactured in China, over the last two or three decades. My most recent purchase was some #8's a year or so ago. They all work just fine. So I can speak to the quality of a radom sample over 50 years of several hundred Atlas turnouts.
Not to mention all my friends who are Atlas users and all the people I sold them to working in the hobby shop.
Nice as it is, the PECO product has, what are for me, a number of drawbacks. Mainly their electrical properties and the throwbar spring, but also the short tail on the straight route means filler pieces creating yard ladders.
I have the skills to build my own, I built plenty years ago. But on that point we agree, I would rather spend my time on other aspects of the hobby.
I do build "specials" when required.
Took a long time for me to learn that looks isn't everything with women let alone switch tracks.
Consistency, Well-Built, Robust, Quality, Function, ... Done! And that's how I came to my decision.
With all that given today's turnouts are not too expensive.
Track fiddlerPersonally I think the N scale turnouts made by PECO cosmetically look <BAD> <SNIP> Consistency, Well-Built, Robust, Quality, Function, ... Done!
If Peco made an HO scale turnout as rugged and reliable as their N scale turnout, I would be all-in tomorrow. Forget the good looks, when it comes to track work I would rather have 100% rock solid reliability.
I am with you about that.
Track fiddler Personally I think the N scale turnouts made by PECO cosmetically look like ****. The tie size, spacing and everything else does not even compare to the Cosmetic Prototypical Beauty of ME. Took a long time for me to learn that looks isn't everything with women let alone switch tracks. Consistency, Well-Built, Robust, Quality, Function, ... Done! And that's how I came to my decision. TF
Personally I think the N scale turnouts made by PECO cosmetically look like ****. The tie size, spacing and everything else does not even compare to the Cosmetic Prototypical Beauty of ME.
And I have to admit, that I have NO practical experiance in N scale......
In 1956, a pair of American Flyer remote control switches cost $17.95 in 1956 dollars.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer Railway In 1956, a pair of American Flyer remote control switches cost $17.95 in 1956 dollars.
And those of us who are old enough know that was a lot of money.......