hon30critter I expect that this thread is going to get locked. Apologies to the OP for going off topic. Dave
I expect that this thread is going to get locked. Apologies to the OP for going off topic.
Dave
We lost the OP when he understood that it was going to cost what it costs......
Sheldon
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Lastspikemike I was asked to elaborate. I did. I did nit and would not "shoot him down". Believe me, that's my profession. If I shoot somebody down they know it and they stay down. Why would I do that here, ever? I post only what I believe to be correct information. I studied economics. I also have a lot of experience examining, cross examining and briefing expert witnesses of all kinds, including evaluators. I was just stating the facts of how economics and appraisal works. On specific request that I do so. I am not offended to be corrected. I am not even offended if the correction is incorrect. You are all free to choose what you believe to be correct. Just be aware there are no alternative facts. If I express an opinion I will state it as such. If I do not qualify a statement as being merely my opinion then it is stated as fact. There are most definitely alternative opinions and I will never get drawn into one of those discussions about whose opinion is "right". As for my remark about always being right, I have pointed out elsewhere that this is a tough audience, in more than one sense. Maybe my sense of humour is hard to discern in this environment. In person I do not experience this difficulty. I prefer to have any misinformation I post corrected by anyone who thinks they know better. If they do know better I become more knowledgable. If they do not then whether I try to correct the incorrect correction or not depends to a great extent on the tenor of the post attempting to correct my post. There have been some real lulus, many of which I choose to ignore. Not sure why anyone posts information to a forum like this with the intent of being liked but that's fine if it's your thing.
I was asked to elaborate. I did. I did nit and would not "shoot him down". Believe me, that's my profession. If I shoot somebody down they know it and they stay down. Why would I do that here, ever?
I post only what I believe to be correct information. I studied economics. I also have a lot of experience examining, cross examining and briefing expert witnesses of all kinds, including evaluators. I was just stating the facts of how economics and appraisal works. On specific request that I do so.
I am not offended to be corrected.
I am not even offended if the correction is incorrect.
You are all free to choose what you believe to be correct.
Just be aware there are no alternative facts.
If I express an opinion I will state it as such. If I do not qualify a statement as being merely my opinion then it is stated as fact. There are most definitely alternative opinions and I will never get drawn into one of those discussions about whose opinion is "right".
As for my remark about always being right, I have pointed out elsewhere that this is a tough audience, in more than one sense. Maybe my sense of humour is hard to discern in this environment. In person I do not experience this difficulty.
I prefer to have any misinformation I post corrected by anyone who thinks they know better. If they do know better I become more knowledgable. If they do not then whether I try to correct the incorrect correction or not depends to a great extent on the tenor of the post attempting to correct my post. There have been some real lulus, many of which I choose to ignore.
Not sure why anyone posts information to a forum like this with the intent of being liked but that's fine if it's your thing.
OK Mike, in this thread, you posted lots of incorrect, and some subjective opinion as though it was fact, information about Atlas turnouts, Bryon and I both corrected you.....no response, no acknowledgement.
More info on Atlas turnouts for you:
The Custom Line Super Switch you referred to (items 505 and 506), and the "other" Custom Line #6 (items 562 and 563) have the same geometry.
None of the four items have a curved frog or a curve past the frog.
They are made from the same moving parts.
The "Super Switch" has more proto correct ties, and longer lead past the frog on both routes, that often requires trimming.
The regular custom line, 562 and 563, is designed to make crossovers and yard ladders without cutting, that yield 2" track centers.
The Atlas #6 turnout is actually longer than NMRA Recommended practices, making it possibly the most "gentle" #6 turnout on the market.
You may not like what you see as the "quality" of the Atlas product, and you are welcome to that opinion.
But that does not make incorrect statements about the design correct.
The 100 plus I have work just fine.
I have been at this hobby for 53 years, and sold model trains starting at age 14.
I know just a little about this stuff.
Lastspikemike hon30critter Lastspikemike You are certainly convinced you have.... I'm not sure how to interpret that statement. Could you elaborate please? Dave Definition of market value includes variations in transparency. In general, sellers have more information than buyers simply because they are selling many and the buyer is buying one. On second hand markets sellers and buyers become more equal in that each side is entering into negotiations for just one item. By definition market value is set by each sale between one buyer and one seller. To predict market value requires averaging data from many sales, but that is still just a prediction, not actual market value. The fact is your "bargain" purchases were at market value, no higher and no lower. What you do not know and cannot know (unless the vendor tells you and is not fabricating his information) is which side of your transaction received the higher benefit. My favourite example is the stock market "valuation" which is no such thing.
hon30critter Lastspikemike You are certainly convinced you have.... I'm not sure how to interpret that statement. Could you elaborate please? Dave
Lastspikemike You are certainly convinced you have....
I'm not sure how to interpret that statement. Could you elaborate please?
Definition of market value includes variations in transparency. In general, sellers have more information than buyers simply because they are selling many and the buyer is buying one. On second hand markets sellers and buyers become more equal in that each side is entering into negotiations for just one item.
By definition market value is set by each sale between one buyer and one seller. To predict market value requires averaging data from many sales, but that is still just a prediction, not actual market value.
The fact is your "bargain" purchases were at market value, no higher and no lower. What you do not know and cannot know (unless the vendor tells you and is not fabricating his information) is which side of your transaction received the higher benefit.
My favourite example is the stock market "valuation" which is no such thing.
Not sure what you mean. When I was looking for my truck ( '05 Silverado ), I knew what they went for. I researched prices every day till I found one for way lower than normal asking price. Good deals are out there if you are patient and know where to look. I bought my truck for 2k less than they normally go for, 3 years later no issues, still no rust and runs fantastic. Now getting back to trains, I bought a second hand SOO bandit mp15ac off of eBay for $80. All the others I found were $120 plus. And what if he really felt he got a good deal? Why shoot him down over somthing so silly?
Dave, you make a number of very good and valid points about forum participation. I wish that Steven Otte would comment here on the line to be drawn between self-policing of the forum by members, while at the same time being "civil" - - an MR Forum Policy that prohibits "name-calling, insults, or put-downs including accusing others of trolling".
From time to time, thankfully not often, a new member appears on the forum and that new member's demeanor seem disruptive as opposed to conforming. The issue then becomes one of how to deal with such behavior without risking moderation for speaking up.
Rich
Alton Junction
LastspikemikeDefinition of market value includes variations in transparency. In general, sellers have more information than buyers simply because they are selling many and the buyer is buying one. On second hand markets sellers and buyers become more equal in that each side is entering into negotiations for just one item. By definition market value is set by each sale between one buyer and one seller. To predict market value requires averaging data from many sales, but that is still just a prediction, not actual market value. The fact is your "bargain" purchases were at market value, no higher and no lower. What you do not know and cannot know (unless the vendor tells you and is not fabricating his information) is which side of your transaction received the higher benefit.
I'm sorry, but that whole explanation seems to me to be at odds with what rrebell (and many others I suspect) has been able to do. He has been able to buy things at below the 'normal' asking prices on eBay, and he has been able to sell things at above the 'normal' selling prices. I would ask you why you would post a comment that seems to denigrate his experiences.
Lastspikemike, without wishing to start a firefight, I think you need to reconsider the way you put your opinions forward. You state things in absolute terms, as if no other opinions matter. You said earlier that "I am always right". That is a pretty bold statement. The bottom line is that your are likely not gaining anyones' respect here. In fact, you are risking being ignored completely. Please consider the effect of your very forceful statements on others before you comment further. To be honest, as a fellow Canadian, I am embarrased by your approach to the forums.
To the moderators, if I am out of line with my comments then please remove them.
With all due respect Lastspikemike,
Dave Warnica
cuyamahon30critter I sent you a PM Thanks! Answered.
Hi Byron,
I just responded.
hon30critterI sent you a PM
Thanks! Answered.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
rrebellFunny, I always get what I didn't pay for, it is called bottom feeding, that is why I am breaking even in this hobby, buy low sell high but spend the extra on materials or new stuff.
I understand what you mean.
For items I do not need right away, I do the bottom feeding thing too, and I am able to pay way below market value for many of the desired items.
This also adds a layer of fun to hobby shopping.
Unlike you, I am absolutely not breaking even, but I am within budget.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
richhotrain Two, Peco turnouts are spring loaded, so I don't need switch motors. Rich
Two, Peco turnouts are spring loaded, so I don't need switch motors.
That was the selling point for me! I only needed 2, so spending a little more didn't bother me. The thing I found funny was the lack of right hands. I could fine 100s of LH for >$20. But I had to spend almost $50 for the RH as I didn't want to wait the month to come in stock at my hobby shop
Byron,
I sent you a PM.
LastspikemikeYou are certainly convinced you have....
rrinker Yes, I simply took two Peco #5s and connected them diverging route to diverging route. A track extended from the point end of one and the straight route of the other were parallel with 2" centers. I didn't construct a ladder. --Randy
Yes, I simply took two Peco #5s and connected them diverging route to diverging route. A track extended from the point end of one and the straight route of the other were parallel with 2" centers. I didn't construct a ladder.
--Randy
So the whole point of the longer straight on the Atlas Custom Line #6, for some 60 plus years now, is that it makes ladders with 2" centers, with no fillers.
Likewise the #4 (we all know is really a #4.5), also makes 2" track center ladders and crossovers.
And while Atlas has improved, upgraded, and added code 83 over these many years, the geometry has stayed the same.
Again, nothing against PECO, their quality is great, but their features don't fit my needs.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
More info - The PECO diverging routes do create 2" track center crossovers.
The PECO measures 6-1/4" from the frog tip to the end of the points, the Atlas measures 7", with the intial angle of departure of the points being ever so slightly more gentle on the Atlas.
Well, I just printed out the #6 tunout plan from PECO, and varified the accuracy of the print out. Then I constructed a basic ladder with two right hand turnouts with the turnouts connected directly to each other.
The resulting track centers of the diverging routes are 1-9/16".
The Trig confirms these numbers +/- a few decimal points.
rrinker Peco makes 2" centers as well. No fitter pieces. Both CAD and setting it up on my workbench and matching the track centers to SweepSticks with 2" SpaceGauges. And simply using a ruler. #5 by CAD and actual experimentation, #6 tested with CAD only since I don't have 2 on hand. --Randy
Peco makes 2" centers as well. No fitter pieces. Both CAD and setting it up on my workbench and matching the track centers to SweepSticks with 2" SpaceGauges. And simply using a ruler.
#5 by CAD and actual experimentation, #6 tested with CAD only since I don't have 2 on hand.
A #6 frog is aproximately 9.47 degrees.
Trigonometry says that if a diagonal line crosses two parallel lines spaced 2" apart, the length of that diagonal line between the points of intersection will be just over 12". This is why Atlas #6 turnouts are 12" long.
The only way to make it less than 12" and have 2" track centers is to change the angle.
So is the PECO curved after the frog to change the total angle and shorten the turnout?
If the PECO #6 turnout is 9" long, that would require a total angle of 12.84 degrees, 3 degrees more than a #6? That would reduce the length of the turnout to 9".
So I would like to see how this magic PECO geometry works?
--Curved turnouts are troublesome and should be avoided for that reason. They look great, especially in a crossover, but you are begging for derailments if you use them.
Hundreds of layouts use PECO curved turnouts with no problems at all. This is true for both Code 75/100 and Code 83. If you are having trouble with PECO curved turnouts, there is likely a problem with track-laying or design.
--Peco #11 were considered but a bridge or a curve got in the way.
There is no PECO #11 in any scale that I am aware of.
--Other Custom line turnouts have curved diverging rails, Super Track turnouts are straight.
Atlas Custom-Line turnouts have straight diverging paths.
--Atlas turnouts must be equipped with a throw bar control to be useable
Edit: Oops, you're correct, I missed the word "control".
Funny, I always get what I didn't pay for, it is called bottom feeding, that is why I am breaking even in this hobby, buy low sell high but spend the extra on materials or new stuff.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Sheldon, I agree with you on the frog rail distance, but I was referring to the overall length of the Peco versus the Atlas Custom Line, 9 inches versus 12 inches. Rich Do you understand why it is longer? Sheldon I do, but the answer doesn't matter for my purposes because that shorter length is crucial when and where space is at a premium. Rich OK, it is a trade off. If you are stacking turnouts where one goes left, and the next one goes right, or you are going into a curve right away the PECO does not require trimming to save that 3". But the Atlas can be trimmed to that size. I have cut back my share. But when building simple yard ladders, especially in my staging yards, the Atlas maked up perfect ladders with no small filler sections. Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Sheldon, I agree with you on the frog rail distance, but I was referring to the overall length of the Peco versus the Atlas Custom Line, 9 inches versus 12 inches. Rich Do you understand why it is longer? Sheldon I do, but the answer doesn't matter for my purposes because that shorter length is crucial when and where space is at a premium. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Sheldon, I agree with you on the frog rail distance, but I was referring to the overall length of the Peco versus the Atlas Custom Line, 9 inches versus 12 inches. Rich Do you understand why it is longer? Sheldon
richhotrain Sheldon, I agree with you on the frog rail distance, but I was referring to the overall length of the Peco versus the Atlas Custom Line, 9 inches versus 12 inches. Rich
Sheldon, I agree with you on the frog rail distance, but I was referring to the overall length of the Peco versus the Atlas Custom Line, 9 inches versus 12 inches.
Do you understand why it is longer?
I do, but the answer doesn't matter for my purposes because that shorter length is crucial when and where space is at a premium.
OK, it is a trade off. If you are stacking turnouts where one goes left, and the next one goes right, or you are going into a curve right away the PECO does not require trimming to save that 3". But the Atlas can be trimmed to that size. I have cut back my share.
But when building simple yard ladders, especially in my staging yards, the Atlas maked up perfect ladders with no small filler sections.
Wow I either hate or love when you guys spark a memory
I had an American Flyer that I shined and polished the steel runners that met the ice.
It was called Dead Man's Hill where we had to all go about three and a half blocks down to get the enjoyment of the snowy day.
That Hill was wicked I tell you! You know seeing some person that looks like Simon and Mr Peabody would never slide down that Hill.
We all did.
I remember the blood, the dizziness, the tree fatality, the confusion and everything else that went with that Hill.
God the Fun!!!
Many years later when my younger sister was born. Big Brothers time to babysit, ... Are you kidding me? Where do you think they decided to go on that day in the Winter???
Well that didn't take long, Yep, you got it! Dead Man's Hill!
Seriously I think that's why my sister loves me so much to this day
And she's tougher than nails! I don't have to show her my switch tracks, she's already seen them
TF
I don;t see any problem with Peco HO turnouts. They aren't that delicate, but they look nice. The HO ones have the nice notch in the tie to slide the joiner under. And the straight rail is actually straight, unlike every Atlas #4 (code 83) I bought over the past 18 years.
Simply having more size options is the main reason I am using Peco this time.
Bayfield Transfer Railway In 1956, a pair of American Flyer remote control switches cost $17.95 in 1956 dollars.
In 1956, a pair of American Flyer remote control switches cost $17.95 in 1956 dollars.
And those of us who are old enough know that was a lot of money.......
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Track fiddler Personally I think the N scale turnouts made by PECO cosmetically look like ****. The tie size, spacing and everything else does not even compare to the Cosmetic Prototypical Beauty of ME. Took a long time for me to learn that looks isn't everything with women let alone switch tracks. Consistency, Well-Built, Robust, Quality, Function, ... Done! And that's how I came to my decision. TF
Personally I think the N scale turnouts made by PECO cosmetically look like ****. The tie size, spacing and everything else does not even compare to the Cosmetic Prototypical Beauty of ME.
Took a long time for me to learn that looks isn't everything with women let alone switch tracks.
Consistency, Well-Built, Robust, Quality, Function, ... Done! And that's how I came to my decision.
And I have to admit, that I have NO practical experiance in N scale......
Track fiddlerPersonally I think the N scale turnouts made by PECO cosmetically look <BAD> <SNIP> Consistency, Well-Built, Robust, Quality, Function, ... Done!
If Peco made an HO scale turnout as rugged and reliable as their N scale turnout, I would be all-in tomorrow. Forget the good looks, when it comes to track work I would rather have 100% rock solid reliability.
I am with you about that.