Gee, that sounds like a tough way to go about it. No wonder you want Tortoise control.
You can effectively widen the Tortoise dead band by moving the fulcrum further away from the actuator. Your limit being the least amount of movement needed to move the points full sweep.
Typically, a Tortoise comes to rest with some amount of overshoot i.e. pre-loading on the wire. There to make sure the point rails are held tight to the stock rails preventing picking the point. Moving the fulcrum away from the actuator lessens the pre-load. Using the least required amount of pre-load maximizes the dead band width.
I think it may be possible for you to do this using your unfriendly switches by fine tuning the Tortoise installation. If you can match full point sweep to full actuator sweep then a Tortoise has plenty of dead band.
The throwbar to Tortoise distance and propensity of your rolling stock to pick switches will dictate whether fine tuning is a valid solution or not.
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
Yes, I didn't say it can;t work - you just have to be careful and lien them up properly. Adjusting the position of the Tortoise fixed the problem turnouts at the club.
The Tortoise has enough throw that you ordinarily don't have to be super precise in positioning it. But with turnouts like these Shinhara where both point rails are the same polarity, you have to be a little more careful to center it correctly. That's all.
Although with these types of turnouts ana double crossover - figuring out which frog gets what polairy from which Tortoise may be a bit daunting - that's what Frog Juicers were invented for.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
This is actually very easy now if I am understanding it correctly.
You are using two Non-DCC Friendly (old style) #8 turnouts to make your single crossover. You are not using a Shinohara double crossover. Your layout is DCC. I hope this is correct. I gleaned this information from you previous posts, sorry if I missed a later detail.
You can use one DPDT reverser two power both Tortoise switch machines.
Insulate BOTH frog rails between the turnouts, and each rail from the frog that goes the the non-divergent path about 8 inches away. Then just use a frog juicer on each frog.
I believe that will be OK. That is how I set up a single crossover on a friends DCC layout.
One toggle does it all (and two frog juicers).
On my DC layout this is much more complicated, but I can still do it with one DPDT toggle. I just need SPST auxiliary contact on both Tortoise switch machines and a lot more wire.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 This is actually very easy now if I am understanding it correctly. You are using two Non-DCC Friendly (old style) #8 turnouts to make your single crossover. You are not using a Shinohara double crossover. Your layout is DCC. I hope this is correct. I gleaned this information from you previous posts, sorry if I missed a later detail. You can use one DPDT reverser two power both Tortoise switch machines. Insulate BOTH frog rails between the turnouts, and each rail from the frog that goes the the non-divergent path about 8 inches away. Then just use a frog juicer on each frog. I believe that will be OK. That is how I set up a single crossover on a friends DCC layout. One toggle does it all (and two frog juicers). On my DC layout this is much more complicated, but I can still do it with one DPDT toggle. I just need SPST auxiliary contact on both Tortoise switch machines and a lot more wire. -Kevin
That's how I've planned it all along. The only fly in the ointment was the actuator rod not moving the point rails sufficiently. For that it seems I just need a stiffer wire. Amazon is supposed to deliver that next Friday. Hopefully earlier.
There is one catch which I don't see as a problem. The two turnouts are in different DCC zones and when crossing over the train moves from one zone to another. Probably wasn't the best of planning but I'm not going to change it now. I think I can still get away with a single DPDT if internally the tortoise does not link the turnout motor to the track connectors which would surprise me if it does. Unless I am missing something, connecting the two Tortoise motors is not going to connect rail power between the two turnouts.
rrinker Yes, I didn't say it can;t work - you just have to be careful and lien them up properly. Adjusting the position of the Tortoise fixed the problem turnouts at the club. The Tortoise has enough throw that you ordinarily don't have to be super precise in positioning it. But with turnouts like these Shinhara where both point rails are the same polarity, you have to be a little more careful to center it correctly. That's all. Although with these types of turnouts ana double crossover - figuring out which frog gets what polairy from which Tortoise may be a bit daunting - that's what Frog Juicers were invented for. --Randy
The new .039 music wire arrived yesterday afternoon and today I reinstalled the Tortoises. Everything is working just like I hoped. You weren't kidding when you said they have to be lined up correctly. There doesn't seem to be much margin for error. Probably less than 1/8". I installed the first one using the holes I had drilled when I did the initial install with the original actuator rod. As you indicated, the polarity to the frog got flipped before the point rail broke contact and created a short. I moved the holes about 1/8" and that solved the problem.
For the second one, I had yet to drill any holes so I tried to be very careful lining it up but still didn't get it exactly right. I had to make a minor adjustment but got things working like they should.
I didn't want to use the Dremel to cut off the excess actuator rod because I was afraid I would damage the throw bar. I have a heavy duty wire cutters and I used a scrap piece of 2 inch foam as a shield because I am aware how it can turn into a missile when cut with a wire cutters. I couldn't quite cut it as flush as I would have liked and was concerned the coupler pins might catch but I tested with a few pieces of rolling stock and they just missed it. It might yet prove to be a problem for low hanging pins which I likely have.
The hardest part of this was getting down under the benchwork and getting the leverage I needed to do precise work. I was constantly moving objects to use as backrests when doing the drilling and the wiring.
Thanks to all who offered advice. I'm now confident I can install additional Toroises as the need arises.
John-NYBW The new .039 music wire arrived yesterday afternoon and today I reinstalled the Tortoises. Everything is working just like I hoped. You weren't kidding when you said they have to be lined up correctly. There doesn't seem to be much margin for error. Probably less than 1/8". I installed the first one using the holes I had drilled when I did the initial install with the original actuator rod. As you indicated, the polarity to the frog got flipped before the point rail broke contact and created a short. I moved the holes about 1/8" and that solved the problem.
On my layout, I use 1/2" plywood for the surface and cork for the roadbed. I cut a 5/8" diameter hole through the plywood with a spade bit and a matching hole through the cork with a hobby knife. That hole leaves plenty of opening to position the Tortoise wire. And there is a tolerance for error when positioning the Tortoise from underneath the layout.
Rich
Alton Junction
The problem with tolerence is the use of those old Shinohara turnouts and the Tortoise contacts to power route the frog. On say an Atlas turnout, there is plenty of room for the Tortoise to be off center and still work reliably. Or a Peco Electrofrog modified as recommended (easy), or if the Shinohara was modified as recommended (hard - because you have to completely replace the throwbar). Or, don't use the Tortoise contacts and use a Frog Juicer with DCC, but they don;t work with DC, you need contacts of some sort.
richhotrain John-NYBW The new .039 music wire arrived yesterday afternoon and today I reinstalled the Tortoises. Everything is working just like I hoped. You weren't kidding when you said they have to be lined up correctly. There doesn't seem to be much margin for error. Probably less than 1/8". I installed the first one using the holes I had drilled when I did the initial install with the original actuator rod. As you indicated, the polarity to the frog got flipped before the point rail broke contact and created a short. I moved the holes about 1/8" and that solved the problem. A lot depends upon the materials that the Tortoise wires have to protrude through - - - plywood, foam, cork. And it also depends upon the diameter of the hole that is drill through those materials. On my layout, I use 1/2" plywood for the surface and cork for the roadbed. I cut a 5/8" diameter hole through the plywood with a spade bit and a matching hole through the cork with a hobby knife. That hole leaves plenty of opening to position the Tortoise wire. And there is a tolerance for error when positioning the Tortoise from underneath the layout. Rich
A lot depends upon the materials that the Tortoise wires have to protrude through - - - plywood, foam, cork. And it also depends upon the diameter of the hole that is drill through those materials.
I had drilled half inch holes as well through 3/4" plywood and 1/8" cork road bed. The actuator rod had plenty of room to move. These old Shinora turnouts are fairly stiff compared to Atlas turnouts and needed a stiffer wire. After installing using the original wire included with the Tortoise I could see the actuator rod was moving but was bending because it wasn't strong enough to move the throw bar. I'm guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I had been using these on an Atlas turnout.
John-NYBW I'm guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I had been using these on an Atlas turnout.
I'm guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I had been using these on an Atlas turnout.
richhotrain John-NYBW I'm guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I had been using these on an Atlas turnout. Maybe, but over time, the 0.039" wire will be less affected by the continuous flexing than the original wire supplied with the Tortoise. Rich
Maybe, but over time, the 0.039" wire will be less affected by the continuous flexing than the original wire supplied with the Tortoise.
The good news is Amazon shipped me 12 feet of the .039 wire and I've only used about 8 inches of it. I'm going to use one of the 3 foot pieces to repair the hoop of the net I use to clean my fish pond. That still leaves me with enough for a lot more turnouts.
John-NYBW The good news is Amazon shipped me 12 feet of the .039 wire and I've only used about 8 inches of it. I'm going to use one of the 3 foot pieces to repair the hoop of the net I use to clean my fish pond. That still leaves me with enough for a lot more turnouts.
I use a few Tortoises on my layout with N scale turnouts.
When you use roadbed of 3/4" like me, it seems the piano wire need to be replaced by a stronger one even in N scale.
To put all the holes, to fix the tortoises I use a different way.
First I test fit the turnout and I drill a enlarged hole under the throwbar as usual.
I have a homemade jig drill with a pin and a small part which go between the rails files.
It's a piece of aluminium with predilled holes to fix the Tortoises.
I put this jig with the pin on the turnout, ( not under the roadbed) the point of the turnout are centered between the two files of track, the pin of the jig is engaged in the hole in the throwbar; the small tab which go between the files of track center the jig over the turnout
The jig is now aligned with the track.
I drill two holes from over trough the roadbed in a cross form in a 3mm size, just enough to fix the turnout.
Next I go under the roadbed I put the activating wire in the hole of the throwbar and I just need to put the two screws in the drilled holes to fix the Tortoises, no more need to hold the jig under the layout which move when you drawn the holes.
No more need to drill holes under the b, when I go under the roadbed I just go there to fix the Tortoise in his place.
I check the move of the turnout with a quick socket and a small switch and I cut with a nipper the rest of the piano wire.
Next one.....
I cut two small strips of polystyrene, paint them black, cut out a corresponding shallow notch on either side of the wire hole under where the throw bar rests, and insert the strips. A quick test to see that the throw bar is functioning smoothly, remove and add glue to the strips and reinsert. Ensures the throw bar is not rubbing against anything that might impede them.
I went to .032 for my Tortoise throwbar wire, even with the Fasttrack switches (which might come out a bit tight) that was more than stiff enough.