This is my first experience installing a Tortoise. Most of my turnouts are Atlas using their under table switch machines. I've just installed a pair of Walthers/Shinora #8 turnouts to create a crossover on my double track main. The turnouts set on 1/8" cork roadbed on top of 3/4" plywood.
I watched David Popp's installation video as well as another YouTube video and I believe I followed the steps correctly as far as alignment. When I got the first Tortoise installed and tried it out, it wasn't moving the points. I could see underneath the the Tortoise was moving side to side but was not getting movement in the points. Initially I had the fulcrum at the top but tried it in the middle and then at the bottom. I found that in its lowest position I got a little bit of movement but not enough to align the points correctly. I am able to move the points from side to side with my finger but the actuating rod isn't able to move them. It appears to me the rod is bending rather than throwing the tie bar. In the YouTube video I looked at, the presenter substituted a slightly stiffer wire for the actuating rod and I'm wondering if that is the solution. I went to Amazon and found music wire that looks like it might be the answer. They offer it in .020, .032, .047, and .078 diameters. Which would be the best choice? Are there other things I should try first?
The only time I had to use heavier wire was when going through thicker than usual materials - like 2" of foam. Then the included wire would just bend. But those were also Atlas turnouts, which the points easily flop from side to side - just tilting the turnout flops the points over. The Shinohara probably have a contacts that slides under the stock rail, making the points a bit stiff - they will move slightly, but need a slight force to puch them against the stock rail. So thicker wire may be needed here. You can get it at most any hobby shop. .032 should be stiff enough, it worked through 2" foam for me.
Be sure your hole under the throwbar is big enough and the wire isn;t hitting the sides of the hole instead of fully moving to the side.
You need a cutoff wheel or heavy duty wire nippers to cut this stuff - do NOT use your track cutters, you will ruin them.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
can you do something to make the points move more freely?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Using Walthers Shinohara switches. Had same problem. Heavier wire fixed it. Tortoise is supplied with 0.025" wire. Substituted 0.039" where Tortoise was close underneath switch. Substituted 0.047" where Tortoise was further below switch (through thick foam). K&S offers piano wire found at most hobby shops. Requires sharp stout wire cutters to cut. Drill actuator and fulcrum to accomodate larger wire.
[EDIT] Mistyped. 0.032" changed to 0.039". Sorry.
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
For years I have used Atlas Custom Line turnouts powered by Tortoises. I replace the original wire with K&S 0.039 music wire. My layout is 1/2 plywood and 5 mm foam roadbed. The opening in the plywood is created with a 5/8" drill bit. Same procedure for Walthers Shinohara turnouts, curved, 3-way, double slip.
Never a problem.
Rich
Alton Junction
rrinker The only time I had to use heavier wire was when going through thicker than usual materials - like 2" of foam. Then the included wire would just bend. But those were also Atlas turnouts, which the points easily flop from side to side - just tilting the turnout flops the points over. The Shinohara probably have a contacts that slides under the stock rail, making the points a bit stiff - they will move slightly, but need a slight force to puch them against the stock rail. So thicker wire may be needed here. You can get it at most any hobby shop. .032 should be stiff enough, it worked through 2" foam for me. Be sure your hole under the throwbar is big enough and the wire isn;t hitting the sides of the hole instead of fully moving to the side. You need a cutoff wheel or heavy duty wire nippers to cut this stuff - do NOT use your track cutters, you will ruin them. --Randy
These Shinora turnouts have a metal ring around the hole in the throw bar so they can't be expaned without removing the ring and that would likely damage the throwbar which also has a metal strip on top. A 1/16 drill bit will not pass through the hole and if my arithmetic is correct that is about .06" diameter. I'm guessing, the .047 diameter might be a little tight so it sounds like .032 might be the sweet spot.
David Popp recommended using a cutoff wheel to trim the wire and specifically recommended against using a rail nippers which is what I've always used with the plastic Atlas turnout machines. He didn't say why but you seem to have answered that question.
gregc can you do something to make the points move more freely?
Right now there is nothing but bare cork roadbed under the track and the only thing I can think of would be to remove the cork under the throw bar. In the past I've used foam roadbed and that has a way of binding which is why I went with cork for this installation. I'm going to try a stiffer wire to see if that's the answer.
John-NYBW gregc can you do something to make the points move more freely? Right now there is nothing but bare cork roadbed under the track and the only thing I can think of would be to remove the cork under the throw bar. In the past I've used foam roadbed and that has a way of binding which is why I went with cork for this installation. I'm going to try a stiffer wire to see if that's the answer.
The music wire used for this is a hardened steel. The jaws of a rail nipper are not hardened - nickel silver is a rather soft metal. If you try to use the rail nipper to cut steel wire, it will instead cut the jaws of the rail nipper, the softer material, and they will never again make a clean cut on rail.
Cutting the Atlas plastic pins with the rail nipper is no problem. You can almost always use a tool on softer material than it was designed for, but using it on a harder material will ruin the tool. I have a pair of heavy duty cutters to use, and even those are getting a bit crusty along the edges from cutting the wire.
Something to keep in mind if using a cutter like that - hold on to the free (or what will become the free) end, and wear eye protection. The end you cut off with such cutters WILL go shooting off eith not insignificant force, and you definitely do not want a sharp piece of wire poking into your eye.
ANother thing about heavy duty hardened cutters - they tend to be large. Not so large as to have problems with HO, but on N scale you would have a hard time clipping the wire off close to the top of the throwbar since the jaws won't fit down between the rails.
lifeontheranch Using Walthers Shinohara switches. Had same problem. Heavier wire fixed it. Tortoise is supplied with 0.025" wire. Substituted 0.039" where Tortoise was close underneath switch. Substituted 0.047" where Tortoise was further below switch (through thick foam). K&S offers piano wire found at most hobby shops. Requires sharp stout wire cutters to cut. Drill actuator and fulcrum to accomodate larger wire. [EDIT] Mistyped. 0.032" changed to 0.039". Sorry.
I saw .032 on Amazon but I'll keep looking to see if they have .039. The closest LHS is almost an hour drive one way but as of Monday, the governor of Ohio closed all non-essential businesses until further notice so that isn't an option anyway.
John-NYBW I'm guessing, the .047 diameter might be a little tight so it sounds like .032 might be the sweet spot.
John-NYBW David Popp recommended using a cutoff wheel to trim the wire and specifically recommended against using a rail nippers which is what I've always used with the plastic Atlas turnout machines. He didn't say why but it seems that would be simpler than using the cutoff wheel which I also have.
David Popp recommended using a cutoff wheel to trim the wire and specifically recommended against using a rail nippers which is what I've always used with the plastic Atlas turnout machines. He didn't say why but it seems that would be simpler than using the cutoff wheel which I also have.
The reason why is because the piano wire is hard.
If you try cutting it with Xuron rail cutters or sprue trimmers, you'll end up with a half-moon indentation in each cutting edge. Don't ask how I know that.
Good luck.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
The throwbar requires something to rest on i.e. your cork. With nothing under it the throwbar will drop slightly causing the point rails to misalign with the stock rails. Been there, tried that, didn't work.
The metal rivets are used to secure throwbar to point rails. The Tortoise wire goes through a drilled hole in the center of the the throwbar. The drilled hole does not have an eyelet. At least that is how my WS switches are constructed out of the box. If it matters, mine are the 4 digit pt number DCC friendly versions.
Interesting side note... of the 72 switches I purchased, 28 of them did not have predrilled throwbar center holes.
lifeontheranch The throwbar requires something to rest on i.e. your cork. With nothing under it the throwbar will drop slightly causing the point rails to misalign with the stock rails. Been there, tried that, didn't work. The metal rivets are used to secure throwbar to point rails. The Tortoise wire goes through a drilled hole in the center of the the throwbar. The drilled hole does not have an eyelet. At least that is how my WS switches are constructed out of the box. If it matters, mine are the 4 digit pt number DCC friendly versions. Interesting side note... of the 72 switches I purchased, 28 of them did not have predrilled throwbar center holes.
My turnouts are quite old so are not DCC friendly. I bought them shortly before Atlas came out with their #8s and I like using the Atlas under table switch machines which won't work with the WS turnouts. When I decided to add this crossover, I decided to use these old turnouts rather than buying Atlas turnouts and that's when I decided to give Tortoise a try. Since WS turnouts don't have insulated frogs, the Tortoise will handle that. My turnouts look slighly different than yours. The metal strip on the throw bar is one solid piece. there is no break in it where the hole is.
richhotrain John-NYBW I'm guessing, the .047 diameter might be a little tight so it sounds like .032 might be the sweet spot. 0.039" diameter music wire is the sweeter spot. Rich
0.039" diameter music wire is the sweeter spot.
Just ordered the .039 from Amazon. Their delivery time has increased due to the coronavirus so they estimate it will arrive next Friday. I have other projects to work on until then. I've been using a SPDT switch to control the polarity of the frogs and was just using my fingers to throw the points. I guess I can keep doing that for a while. The reason for the crossover is to allow a runaround for facing point pick ups and setouts at my lumber yard. I already had a crossover on the opposite side of it.
Inexpensive Husky brand end nippers from Home Depot cut piano wire very well and for a surprizingly long time. $12
They are listed as:Internet #203287749Model #48060SKU #881921
End nippers are advantageous here. Let's you use as long of a wire as you wish during installation. That makes life simpler. Snip the wire flush to top of throwbar when finished. Nipper jaws fit between HO rails.
You may have noticed the eyelets are filled with solder on my switches. I solder feeders into the eyelet. Now not reliant on the switch sloppy joiner or underpaths for electrical to the point rails. This too adds a tiny bit more resistance to throwbar movement. Another reason for the thicker Tortoise wire.
Oops. Nevermind my ramblings. Only works on DCC friendly.
Yeah, that's what makes the different between the DCC friendly ones and the old ones - in DCC friendly, the throwbar is split and the point rails are isolared from one another, allowing you do do what you did. The old ones have both point rails tied together via the throwbar.
I installed my Tortoises some years ago and I think folks have covered the bases well. My experience, using 5/8" plywood plus 1/4" cork, included:
a) Definitely use a larger hole through the roadbed than the typical 1/4". I'm pretty sure I used 3/8". I still managed to have some side interference in a couple of cases because I did not precisely locate the hole relative to where the throughbar center would be. In those cases I had to enlarge the hole somehow.
b) Be sure to file down the cork a bit under the throwbar area to ensure no interference with throwbar movement.
c) I originally upgraded the throw wire for a few problem turnouts from the standard to 0.032" music wire, which I found (at that time) at Hobby Lobby. I recently upgraded all easily accessible (depending on Tortoise location re: framing cross members) throw wires when I ballasted the track, where I unnecessarily created some difficulties. The 0.032" (music) wire makes a significant difference, so I upgraded to boost the other fixes I implemented.
I did learn via a recent comment that the wire can be inserted from atop the table, versus stabbing it in (attached to the Tortoise) from below. If the Tortoise is mounted, take a long piece of your new piano wire and create just the (fulcrum point) angle bend, but not the 90-degree bend (at the end) for the lever. Start the new wire down from above. Put a piece of tape on it to keep it from falling through. Under the table, thread the wire through the fulcrum. Then add a 90-degree bend (the other suggestion is a loop, but I did not find that necessary), and secure the wire at the lever. After testing, cut the wire off atop the throwbar.
Note that a larger diameter wire requires enlarging the hole in the Tortoise lever where the 90-degree wire bend is inserted & secured with the screw.
d) Yes, locating the fulcrum relatively low increases the leverage, including contact with the stock rail, so I have maximized that.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
I also use Walthers/Shinohara turnouts and Tortoise switch motors.
My tunouts are all VERY UNFRIENDLY to DCC. (Old School dinosaur here)
I cut a 7/16 hole through 3/4" plywood, 1/2" Homasote, and cork. I use 0.032" steel piano wire for my actuator rod.
Important things to consider:
1) The Shinohara throwbar is the same thickness as the ties. It can rub on the subroadbed making the throwbar dificult to move. I fix this sitation by digging a trough in the roadbed under the throwbars.
2) The throwbars can wedge against the headblock ties when it is pulled from one side to the other and make it difficult to move. A drop or two of Labelle oil fixes this.
I hope this helps.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Something else to keep in mind - if you are using the Tortoise contacts to power the frog, be very careful to align the Tortoise correctly - that unfriendly to DCC is just as unfriendly to DC if the Tortoise contacts switch over before the points pull away, or don't switch over after the points have moved to touch the new stock rail. The dead spot in the Tortoise contacts is fairly small. Had this problem at the club I used to belong to. The was a whole serioes of web sites years back that showed you how to mod the Tortoise to make the gap bigger - firm contact at the ends of travel, but a bigger blank space in between, almost entirely to work with Shinohara and the earlier Walthers/Shinohara non-DCC friendly turnouts. Also would help with a stright out of the box Peco Electrofrog, if left in stock for it would have the same problem, perhaps wors if you didn;t take out the spring because the points could snap into the new positon long before the Tortoise contacts have switched.
rrinkerif you are using the Tortoise contacts to power the frog, be very careful to align the Tortoise correctly - that unfriendly to DCC is just as unfriendly to DC if the Tortoise contacts switch over before the points pull away, or don't switch over after the points have moved to touch the new stock rail.
Randy is completely correct about this. I did not want to confuse the basic question with this added bit of "disaster in waiting."
I add a pair of contact switches to all my tortoises to power the frog. This set-up breaks the circuit as soon as the switch machine moves, and does not make the circuit until it is all the way through its travel.
There is a very large open circuit through the moving of the points.
I would never power the frog through the contacts built into the Tortoise.
Why not? At least, if not using the Shinohara turnouts. It's not like it's possible to switch high currents, no more than one loco can be on a frog at once.
I'm the first to admit I fail to wear safety glasses as often as I should. when installing Tortoise, being a lone wolf, I use a longer wire and drop the turnout on top of it, then cut the excess. And this is one time when I ALWAYS wear safety glasses. I use a small hardened steel end nipper to cut the excess wire. On the first layout I had one go flying, and never found it. Until I tore that layout down and found it--embedded 2" into the ceiling. Yowza! Now I wrap a bunch of masking tape at the top before I cut. And wear gloves. Even if the top flys out of my hand, I can find it.
BTW I use the end nipper because I tried the cutoff disc once. It skipped on me (entirely due to stupid user error), and it was time to order a new turnout.
DrumguyUntil I tore that layout down and found it--embedded 2" into the ceiling.
Been there, done that! I wrap a masking tape "flag" on to the end being cut off and hold it while nipping.
DrumguyBTW I use the end nipper because I tried the cutoff disc once.
I never tried a cutoff wheel because I'd be afraid of the heat melting the throw bar, or at least enlarging the hole.
I apply a "slippery sheet" under my throw bar most times. This can be a piece of mylar or a stiff backing sheet found on some adhesive "stick-on" items.
Cut a thin slot in it for the Tortoise actuating wire and it will also help fill in the big hole through the roadbed.
Almost all my frogs are wired through the Tortoise contacts. The ones that aren't have frog juicers wired to them. I do have the non-power routing turnouts, though. I knew a modeler who opened up every Tortoise he had and cut a gap in the PC board trace of the switch to make it into a "Break-before-make" type.
In the "old days" before I replaced almost all my power-routing turnouts the intermittant shorting WAS a problem at times.
Good Luck, Ed
rrinker I would never power the frog through the contacts built into the Tortoise. Why not? At least, if not using the Shinohara turnouts. It's not like it's possible to switch high currents, no more than one loco can be on a frog at once. --Randy
OK, I would never do it, because I use old style solid frog Non-DCC Shinohara turnouts.
Anyone else, using any one of the different products can do it.
Has anyone besides me ever cut the tip of their finger on the bit of steel wire sticking up through the throwbar?
SeeYou190Has anyone besides me ever cut the tip of their finger on the bit of steel wire sticking up through the throwbar?
I have recieved some bloody scrapes, especially while doing track cleaning chores!
Model Railroading is FUN, but not for the faint-of-heart!
Ed
I have always bought that .039 music with at the Local Hardware Store, not a train shop. You might find hardware stores open when train shops are not.
There is a small hole in the moving actuator on the Tortoise that the wire goes through. Remember, that hole all needs to be enlarged slightly when going to a thicker wire.
After cutting a Tortoise wire, I usually take a small metal file and bevel the ends. This helps the wire slip through the holes on the Tortoise and the throwbar.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
rrinker Something else to keep in mind - if you are using the Tortoise contacts to power the frog, be very careful to align the Tortoise correctly - that unfriendly to DCC is just as unfriendly to DC if the Tortoise contacts switch over before the points pull away, or don't switch over after the points have moved to touch the new stock rail. The dead spot in the Tortoise contacts is fairly small. Had this problem at the club I used to belong to. The was a whole serioes of web sites years back that showed you how to mod the Tortoise to make the gap bigger - firm contact at the ends of travel, but a bigger blank space in between, almost entirely to work with Shinohara and the earlier Walthers/Shinohara non-DCC friendly turnouts. Also would help with a stright out of the box Peco Electrofrog, if left in stock for it would have the same problem, perhaps wors if you didn;t take out the spring because the points could snap into the new positon long before the Tortoise contacts have switched. --Randy
That's good to know but also somewhat disappointing. My reason for going with the Tortoises was so I could switch the point and change the polarity of the frog with one switch. Right now I'm using SPDT on the frogs and I switch them to the center off position, switch the points, and then throw the SPDT to the correct position. Since its a crossover, I have to do that for both switches. That's 6 moves. 6 chances to make an error.