I cut two small strips of polystyrene, paint them black, cut out a corresponding shallow notch on either side of the wire hole under where the throw bar rests, and insert the strips. A quick test to see that the throw bar is functioning smoothly, remove and add glue to the strips and reinsert. Ensures the throw bar is not rubbing against anything that might impede them.
I went to .032 for my Tortoise throwbar wire, even with the Fasttrack switches (which might come out a bit tight) that was more than stiff enough.
I use a few Tortoises on my layout with N scale turnouts.
When you use roadbed of 3/4" like me, it seems the piano wire need to be replaced by a stronger one even in N scale.
To put all the holes, to fix the tortoises I use a different way.
First I test fit the turnout and I drill a enlarged hole under the throwbar as usual.
I have a homemade jig drill with a pin and a small part which go between the rails files.
It's a piece of aluminium with predilled holes to fix the Tortoises.
I put this jig with the pin on the turnout, ( not under the roadbed) the point of the turnout are centered between the two files of track, the pin of the jig is engaged in the hole in the throwbar; the small tab which go between the files of track center the jig over the turnout
The jig is now aligned with the track.
I drill two holes from over trough the roadbed in a cross form in a 3mm size, just enough to fix the turnout.
Next I go under the roadbed I put the activating wire in the hole of the throwbar and I just need to put the two screws in the drilled holes to fix the Tortoises, no more need to hold the jig under the layout which move when you drawn the holes.
No more need to drill holes under the b, when I go under the roadbed I just go there to fix the Tortoise in his place.
I check the move of the turnout with a quick socket and a small switch and I cut with a nipper the rest of the piano wire.
Next one.....
John-NYBW The good news is Amazon shipped me 12 feet of the .039 wire and I've only used about 8 inches of it. I'm going to use one of the 3 foot pieces to repair the hoop of the net I use to clean my fish pond. That still leaves me with enough for a lot more turnouts.
The good news is Amazon shipped me 12 feet of the .039 wire and I've only used about 8 inches of it. I'm going to use one of the 3 foot pieces to repair the hoop of the net I use to clean my fish pond. That still leaves me with enough for a lot more turnouts.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain John-NYBW I'm guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I had been using these on an Atlas turnout. Maybe, but over time, the 0.039" wire will be less affected by the continuous flexing than the original wire supplied with the Tortoise. Rich
John-NYBW I'm guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I had been using these on an Atlas turnout.
I'm guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I had been using these on an Atlas turnout.
Maybe, but over time, the 0.039" wire will be less affected by the continuous flexing than the original wire supplied with the Tortoise.
richhotrain John-NYBW The new .039 music wire arrived yesterday afternoon and today I reinstalled the Tortoises. Everything is working just like I hoped. You weren't kidding when you said they have to be lined up correctly. There doesn't seem to be much margin for error. Probably less than 1/8". I installed the first one using the holes I had drilled when I did the initial install with the original actuator rod. As you indicated, the polarity to the frog got flipped before the point rail broke contact and created a short. I moved the holes about 1/8" and that solved the problem. A lot depends upon the materials that the Tortoise wires have to protrude through - - - plywood, foam, cork. And it also depends upon the diameter of the hole that is drill through those materials. On my layout, I use 1/2" plywood for the surface and cork for the roadbed. I cut a 5/8" diameter hole through the plywood with a spade bit and a matching hole through the cork with a hobby knife. That hole leaves plenty of opening to position the Tortoise wire. And there is a tolerance for error when positioning the Tortoise from underneath the layout. Rich
John-NYBW The new .039 music wire arrived yesterday afternoon and today I reinstalled the Tortoises. Everything is working just like I hoped. You weren't kidding when you said they have to be lined up correctly. There doesn't seem to be much margin for error. Probably less than 1/8". I installed the first one using the holes I had drilled when I did the initial install with the original actuator rod. As you indicated, the polarity to the frog got flipped before the point rail broke contact and created a short. I moved the holes about 1/8" and that solved the problem.
The new .039 music wire arrived yesterday afternoon and today I reinstalled the Tortoises. Everything is working just like I hoped. You weren't kidding when you said they have to be lined up correctly. There doesn't seem to be much margin for error. Probably less than 1/8". I installed the first one using the holes I had drilled when I did the initial install with the original actuator rod. As you indicated, the polarity to the frog got flipped before the point rail broke contact and created a short. I moved the holes about 1/8" and that solved the problem.
A lot depends upon the materials that the Tortoise wires have to protrude through - - - plywood, foam, cork. And it also depends upon the diameter of the hole that is drill through those materials.
On my layout, I use 1/2" plywood for the surface and cork for the roadbed. I cut a 5/8" diameter hole through the plywood with a spade bit and a matching hole through the cork with a hobby knife. That hole leaves plenty of opening to position the Tortoise wire. And there is a tolerance for error when positioning the Tortoise from underneath the layout.
I had drilled half inch holes as well through 3/4" plywood and 1/8" cork road bed. The actuator rod had plenty of room to move. These old Shinora turnouts are fairly stiff compared to Atlas turnouts and needed a stiffer wire. After installing using the original wire included with the Tortoise I could see the actuator rod was moving but was bending because it wasn't strong enough to move the throw bar. I'm guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I had been using these on an Atlas turnout.
The problem with tolerence is the use of those old Shinohara turnouts and the Tortoise contacts to power route the frog. On say an Atlas turnout, there is plenty of room for the Tortoise to be off center and still work reliably. Or a Peco Electrofrog modified as recommended (easy), or if the Shinohara was modified as recommended (hard - because you have to completely replace the throwbar). Or, don't use the Tortoise contacts and use a Frog Juicer with DCC, but they don;t work with DC, you need contacts of some sort.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Yes, I didn't say it can;t work - you just have to be careful and lien them up properly. Adjusting the position of the Tortoise fixed the problem turnouts at the club. The Tortoise has enough throw that you ordinarily don't have to be super precise in positioning it. But with turnouts like these Shinhara where both point rails are the same polarity, you have to be a little more careful to center it correctly. That's all. Although with these types of turnouts ana double crossover - figuring out which frog gets what polairy from which Tortoise may be a bit daunting - that's what Frog Juicers were invented for. --Randy
Yes, I didn't say it can;t work - you just have to be careful and lien them up properly. Adjusting the position of the Tortoise fixed the problem turnouts at the club.
The Tortoise has enough throw that you ordinarily don't have to be super precise in positioning it. But with turnouts like these Shinhara where both point rails are the same polarity, you have to be a little more careful to center it correctly. That's all.
Although with these types of turnouts ana double crossover - figuring out which frog gets what polairy from which Tortoise may be a bit daunting - that's what Frog Juicers were invented for.
For the second one, I had yet to drill any holes so I tried to be very careful lining it up but still didn't get it exactly right. I had to make a minor adjustment but got things working like they should.
I didn't want to use the Dremel to cut off the excess actuator rod because I was afraid I would damage the throw bar. I have a heavy duty wire cutters and I used a scrap piece of 2 inch foam as a shield because I am aware how it can turn into a missile when cut with a wire cutters. I couldn't quite cut it as flush as I would have liked and was concerned the coupler pins might catch but I tested with a few pieces of rolling stock and they just missed it. It might yet prove to be a problem for low hanging pins which I likely have.
The hardest part of this was getting down under the benchwork and getting the leverage I needed to do precise work. I was constantly moving objects to use as backrests when doing the drilling and the wiring.
Thanks to all who offered advice. I'm now confident I can install additional Toroises as the need arises.
SeeYou190 This is actually very easy now if I am understanding it correctly. You are using two Non-DCC Friendly (old style) #8 turnouts to make your single crossover. You are not using a Shinohara double crossover. Your layout is DCC. I hope this is correct. I gleaned this information from you previous posts, sorry if I missed a later detail. You can use one DPDT reverser two power both Tortoise switch machines. Insulate BOTH frog rails between the turnouts, and each rail from the frog that goes the the non-divergent path about 8 inches away. Then just use a frog juicer on each frog. I believe that will be OK. That is how I set up a single crossover on a friends DCC layout. One toggle does it all (and two frog juicers). On my DC layout this is much more complicated, but I can still do it with one DPDT toggle. I just need SPST auxiliary contact on both Tortoise switch machines and a lot more wire. -Kevin
This is actually very easy now if I am understanding it correctly.
You are using two Non-DCC Friendly (old style) #8 turnouts to make your single crossover. You are not using a Shinohara double crossover. Your layout is DCC. I hope this is correct. I gleaned this information from you previous posts, sorry if I missed a later detail.
You can use one DPDT reverser two power both Tortoise switch machines.
Insulate BOTH frog rails between the turnouts, and each rail from the frog that goes the the non-divergent path about 8 inches away. Then just use a frog juicer on each frog.
I believe that will be OK. That is how I set up a single crossover on a friends DCC layout.
One toggle does it all (and two frog juicers).
On my DC layout this is much more complicated, but I can still do it with one DPDT toggle. I just need SPST auxiliary contact on both Tortoise switch machines and a lot more wire.
-Kevin
That's how I've planned it all along. The only fly in the ointment was the actuator rod not moving the point rails sufficiently. For that it seems I just need a stiffer wire. Amazon is supposed to deliver that next Friday. Hopefully earlier.
There is one catch which I don't see as a problem. The two turnouts are in different DCC zones and when crossing over the train moves from one zone to another. Probably wasn't the best of planning but I'm not going to change it now. I think I can still get away with a single DPDT if internally the tortoise does not link the turnout motor to the track connectors which would surprise me if it does. Unless I am missing something, connecting the two Tortoise motors is not going to connect rail power between the two turnouts.
Living the dream.
Gee, that sounds like a tough way to go about it. No wonder you want Tortoise control.
You can effectively widen the Tortoise dead band by moving the fulcrum further away from the actuator. Your limit being the least amount of movement needed to move the points full sweep.
Typically, a Tortoise comes to rest with some amount of overshoot i.e. pre-loading on the wire. There to make sure the point rails are held tight to the stock rails preventing picking the point. Moving the fulcrum away from the actuator lessens the pre-load. Using the least required amount of pre-load maximizes the dead band width.
I think it may be possible for you to do this using your unfriendly switches by fine tuning the Tortoise installation. If you can match full point sweep to full actuator sweep then a Tortoise has plenty of dead band.
The throwbar to Tortoise distance and propensity of your rolling stock to pick switches will dictate whether fine tuning is a valid solution or not.
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
rrinker Something else to keep in mind - if you are using the Tortoise contacts to power the frog, be very careful to align the Tortoise correctly - that unfriendly to DCC is just as unfriendly to DC if the Tortoise contacts switch over before the points pull away, or don't switch over after the points have moved to touch the new stock rail. The dead spot in the Tortoise contacts is fairly small. Had this problem at the club I used to belong to. The was a whole serioes of web sites years back that showed you how to mod the Tortoise to make the gap bigger - firm contact at the ends of travel, but a bigger blank space in between, almost entirely to work with Shinohara and the earlier Walthers/Shinohara non-DCC friendly turnouts. Also would help with a stright out of the box Peco Electrofrog, if left in stock for it would have the same problem, perhaps wors if you didn;t take out the spring because the points could snap into the new positon long before the Tortoise contacts have switched. --Randy
Something else to keep in mind - if you are using the Tortoise contacts to power the frog, be very careful to align the Tortoise correctly - that unfriendly to DCC is just as unfriendly to DC if the Tortoise contacts switch over before the points pull away, or don't switch over after the points have moved to touch the new stock rail. The dead spot in the Tortoise contacts is fairly small. Had this problem at the club I used to belong to. The was a whole serioes of web sites years back that showed you how to mod the Tortoise to make the gap bigger - firm contact at the ends of travel, but a bigger blank space in between, almost entirely to work with Shinohara and the earlier Walthers/Shinohara non-DCC friendly turnouts. Also would help with a stright out of the box Peco Electrofrog, if left in stock for it would have the same problem, perhaps wors if you didn;t take out the spring because the points could snap into the new positon long before the Tortoise contacts have switched.
That's good to know but also somewhat disappointing. My reason for going with the Tortoises was so I could switch the point and change the polarity of the frog with one switch. Right now I'm using SPDT on the frogs and I switch them to the center off position, switch the points, and then throw the SPDT to the correct position. Since its a crossover, I have to do that for both switches. That's 6 moves. 6 chances to make an error.
I have always bought that .039 music with at the Local Hardware Store, not a train shop. You might find hardware stores open when train shops are not.
There is a small hole in the moving actuator on the Tortoise that the wire goes through. Remember, that hole all needs to be enlarged slightly when going to a thicker wire.
After cutting a Tortoise wire, I usually take a small metal file and bevel the ends. This helps the wire slip through the holes on the Tortoise and the throwbar.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
SeeYou190Has anyone besides me ever cut the tip of their finger on the bit of steel wire sticking up through the throwbar?
I have recieved some bloody scrapes, especially while doing track cleaning chores!
Model Railroading is FUN, but not for the faint-of-heart!
Ed
Has anyone besides me ever cut the tip of their finger on the bit of steel wire sticking up through the throwbar?
rrinker I would never power the frog through the contacts built into the Tortoise. Why not? At least, if not using the Shinohara turnouts. It's not like it's possible to switch high currents, no more than one loco can be on a frog at once. --Randy
I would never power the frog through the contacts built into the Tortoise.
Why not? At least, if not using the Shinohara turnouts. It's not like it's possible to switch high currents, no more than one loco can be on a frog at once.
OK, I would never do it, because I use old style solid frog Non-DCC Shinohara turnouts.
Anyone else, using any one of the different products can do it.
DrumguyUntil I tore that layout down and found it--embedded 2" into the ceiling.
Been there, done that! I wrap a masking tape "flag" on to the end being cut off and hold it while nipping.
DrumguyBTW I use the end nipper because I tried the cutoff disc once.
I never tried a cutoff wheel because I'd be afraid of the heat melting the throw bar, or at least enlarging the hole.
I apply a "slippery sheet" under my throw bar most times. This can be a piece of mylar or a stiff backing sheet found on some adhesive "stick-on" items.
Cut a thin slot in it for the Tortoise actuating wire and it will also help fill in the big hole through the roadbed.
Almost all my frogs are wired through the Tortoise contacts. The ones that aren't have frog juicers wired to them. I do have the non-power routing turnouts, though. I knew a modeler who opened up every Tortoise he had and cut a gap in the PC board trace of the switch to make it into a "Break-before-make" type.
In the "old days" before I replaced almost all my power-routing turnouts the intermittant shorting WAS a problem at times.
Good Luck, Ed
I'm the first to admit I fail to wear safety glasses as often as I should. when installing Tortoise, being a lone wolf, I use a longer wire and drop the turnout on top of it, then cut the excess. And this is one time when I ALWAYS wear safety glasses. I use a small hardened steel end nipper to cut the excess wire. On the first layout I had one go flying, and never found it. Until I tore that layout down and found it--embedded 2" into the ceiling. Yowza! Now I wrap a bunch of masking tape at the top before I cut. And wear gloves. Even if the top flys out of my hand, I can find it.
BTW I use the end nipper because I tried the cutoff disc once. It skipped on me (entirely due to stupid user error), and it was time to order a new turnout.
rrinkerif you are using the Tortoise contacts to power the frog, be very careful to align the Tortoise correctly - that unfriendly to DCC is just as unfriendly to DC if the Tortoise contacts switch over before the points pull away, or don't switch over after the points have moved to touch the new stock rail.
Randy is completely correct about this. I did not want to confuse the basic question with this added bit of "disaster in waiting."
I add a pair of contact switches to all my tortoises to power the frog. This set-up breaks the circuit as soon as the switch machine moves, and does not make the circuit until it is all the way through its travel.
There is a very large open circuit through the moving of the points.
I also use Walthers/Shinohara turnouts and Tortoise switch motors.
My tunouts are all VERY UNFRIENDLY to DCC. (Old School dinosaur here)
I cut a 7/16 hole through 3/4" plywood, 1/2" Homasote, and cork. I use 0.032" steel piano wire for my actuator rod.
Important things to consider:
1) The Shinohara throwbar is the same thickness as the ties. It can rub on the subroadbed making the throwbar dificult to move. I fix this sitation by digging a trough in the roadbed under the throwbars.
2) The throwbars can wedge against the headblock ties when it is pulled from one side to the other and make it difficult to move. A drop or two of Labelle oil fixes this.
I hope this helps.
I installed my Tortoises some years ago and I think folks have covered the bases well. My experience, using 5/8" plywood plus 1/4" cork, included:
a) Definitely use a larger hole through the roadbed than the typical 1/4". I'm pretty sure I used 3/8". I still managed to have some side interference in a couple of cases because I did not precisely locate the hole relative to where the throughbar center would be. In those cases I had to enlarge the hole somehow.
b) Be sure to file down the cork a bit under the throwbar area to ensure no interference with throwbar movement.
c) I originally upgraded the throw wire for a few problem turnouts from the standard to 0.032" music wire, which I found (at that time) at Hobby Lobby. I recently upgraded all easily accessible (depending on Tortoise location re: framing cross members) throw wires when I ballasted the track, where I unnecessarily created some difficulties. The 0.032" (music) wire makes a significant difference, so I upgraded to boost the other fixes I implemented.
I did learn via a recent comment that the wire can be inserted from atop the table, versus stabbing it in (attached to the Tortoise) from below. If the Tortoise is mounted, take a long piece of your new piano wire and create just the (fulcrum point) angle bend, but not the 90-degree bend (at the end) for the lever. Start the new wire down from above. Put a piece of tape on it to keep it from falling through. Under the table, thread the wire through the fulcrum. Then add a 90-degree bend (the other suggestion is a loop, but I did not find that necessary), and secure the wire at the lever. After testing, cut the wire off atop the throwbar.
Note that a larger diameter wire requires enlarging the hole in the Tortoise lever where the 90-degree wire bend is inserted & secured with the screw.
d) Yes, locating the fulcrum relatively low increases the leverage, including contact with the stock rail, so I have maximized that.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Yeah, that's what makes the different between the DCC friendly ones and the old ones - in DCC friendly, the throwbar is split and the point rails are isolared from one another, allowing you do do what you did. The old ones have both point rails tied together via the throwbar.
Oops. Nevermind my ramblings. Only works on DCC friendly.
Inexpensive Husky brand end nippers from Home Depot cut piano wire very well and for a surprizingly long time. $12
They are listed as:Internet #203287749Model #48060SKU #881921
End nippers are advantageous here. Let's you use as long of a wire as you wish during installation. That makes life simpler. Snip the wire flush to top of throwbar when finished. Nipper jaws fit between HO rails.
You may have noticed the eyelets are filled with solder on my switches. I solder feeders into the eyelet. Now not reliant on the switch sloppy joiner or underpaths for electrical to the point rails. This too adds a tiny bit more resistance to throwbar movement. Another reason for the thicker Tortoise wire.
richhotrain John-NYBW I'm guessing, the .047 diameter might be a little tight so it sounds like .032 might be the sweet spot. 0.039" diameter music wire is the sweeter spot. Rich
John-NYBW I'm guessing, the .047 diameter might be a little tight so it sounds like .032 might be the sweet spot.
0.039" diameter music wire is the sweeter spot.
Just ordered the .039 from Amazon. Their delivery time has increased due to the coronavirus so they estimate it will arrive next Friday. I have other projects to work on until then. I've been using a SPDT switch to control the polarity of the frogs and was just using my fingers to throw the points. I guess I can keep doing that for a while. The reason for the crossover is to allow a runaround for facing point pick ups and setouts at my lumber yard. I already had a crossover on the opposite side of it.