Dave, It might be a blessing in disguise that you brad nailer gave you problems. I am certain the screws are a better choice.
Glad to hear you are moving forward.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I decided to move forward instead of procrastinating, which I'm sure you have suspected me of doing for weeks. I put the first sheet of 1/4" plywood down on the benchwork. I said I wasn't going to do that until I had the main busses installed, but I decided to do it so I can clearly mark where those busses will go. (I think I might have said this before - sorry).
I had both 1/4" and 1/8" plywood thanks to a lumber mill order taker who was, shall we say, less than competent, so I decided to use the 1/4". I applied the glue to the benchwork, set the plywood in place and proceeded to use my brad nailer to tack it down. Let me explain that my brad nailer is not of the highest quality. In fact it apparently is on the opposite end of the scale. It drove about half a dozen brads and then refused to feed any more brads into the barrel. Yes, it was properly lubricated. After about 1/2 hour of farting around I decided to get out my impact driver and my 1 1/4" Torx screws. I drilled pilot holes to make things easier. The shorter Torx screws don't have the self tapping starter threads hence the need to drill pilot holes. The plywood is down and will never come up again!
I still have three more sheets to install, but since I had to stand, one sheet tonight was all my back could manage.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
rrinker It's easier to get it lined up that you think. Start with a critical point - a group of turnouts, for example.
Hi Randy,
That thought had occurred to me. Place the turnouts first and then do the rest of the roadbed and the track. However, to be honest, I really want to be able to make fine adjustments to the track position. IMHO, that's the only way I will be able to lay track that works properly on a consistent basis.
I had also thought about eliminating the 2" foam and just using 3/4" plywood but I have decided against that for two reasons:
First, it won't give me the depth I want for the water features. The layout will be almost all flat, so in the couple of spots where I do want depth I want it to really stand out.
Second, I don't want to have to handle and cut 3/4" plywood sheets. I just can't do it with my back the way it is.
So, back to the head scratching.
Thanks for your continued input!
It's easier to get it lined up that you think. Start with a critical point - a group of turnouts, for example.
ANd it's not really once and done, if you use the caulk SPARINGLY, it's easy to pop things off and redo it. I made changes after starting 2 layouts ago. Pulled up 2 turnout and a whole siding. I was using WS foam roadbed, the roadbed was not reusable, but the turnouts and long section of flex track were. The short pieces weren't worth trying to reuse.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Well, I have managed to totally confuse myself on how I should finish the top of the layout!
I was going to put 1/8" plywood overtop of the 2" of foam so that I had something solid to stick the track nails into. Then the issue of getting that thin layer of plywood perfectly smooth came up. If it wasn't smooth, laying reliable track would be a nightmare!
Then I decided to put 1/2" Homasote over the foam so I would have a smooth surface which would hold track nails nicely.
Now I'm questioning why I would reinvent the wheel by doing that. Yes, it would hold the track nails nicely, but it would also make the subroadbed 2 7/8" thick. That would complicate the installation of Tortoises and uncouplers, (or would it?).
So, why don't I just do what tons of others have done successfully and just caulk the cork roadbed and the track right onto the foam? The answer is that I'm not confident that I can get the track positioned properly the first time around. I really like the ability to be able to make minor adjustments to the track position that using track nails allows.
So, what to do, what to do??? I'm going to think about that for a while. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I understand now, makes sense. Looking forward to see the results!
Simon
Hi Simon,
snjroyone option could be to apply a layer of cork, which is a lot easier to work with than Homasote,
Actually, based on my experience with my old club, I think Homasote would be easier to work with. We were able to cut it with a fine toothed scroll saw blade and then bevel it with a carpet knife (box cutter). There was very little mess. I really like the idea of the additional depth that the Homasote will allow for ditches etc.
snjroyif you plan to apply a full layer on your plywood and then remove the extra material for ditches and space around the buildings. Were you planning on using a router to remove the material?
I think the top layer of plywood is out of the picture.
snjroyI don't see a lot of room for mountains or complex scenery
There will be a hill on the lower right with a water feature below it. However, most of the layout will be transition era urban.
Here is the latest incarnation showing all the roads and the hill outline. The track running east to west along the main road will be for a trolley. Click on the image twice to get the maximum size:
Thanks for your interest!
WILLIAM SHEPARDHave some of the same back problems. Spent 35 years putting radios on airplanes you couldn't stand up in, mostly crawling on hard floors. Got one of the swivel office chairs, then took the pedestal off and mounted the seat basically on the floor with the castors, for working under the layout doing wiring and all the other things. Got rid of the castors and put 2 fixed wheels and 2 castor wheels helped some when I need to stay in one point.
Hi William,
I'm not sure how much of the thread you have read, but I have eliminated the need to go under my layout totally. The layout is designed to rotate so whenever I need to work on the bottom of the layout I can just flip it up on its side. That allows me to sit in a regular office chair to do a lot of the work without having to squeeze myself into tight spaces. The layout is also low enough that I will be able to operate it from a chair.
starmanLooks like it is going to be a great layout! What program did you use to draw your layout? I'm looking for one. Thanks. Jack
Hi Jack,
Thanks for your comments.
I used 3rd PlanIt to design the layout. I love it! It is not free by any means, but it works very well. I used it previously to design a 20' x 25' layout for my old club and the program can provide an amazing amount of information. For example, I was able to locate the benchwork framing so that it didn't interfere with the Tortoise positions (96 Tortoises by the way). I was also able to provide exact positions for all three ends on every turnout and I was able to plot the flex track position every six inches. In addition to getting the track in the right place, it made cutting the cookie cutter subroadbed and Homasote pieces a breeze, including being able to minimize waste on the 4x8 sheets. Grades, clearances, radii, elevation, you name it are all easy to determine.
https://www.trackplanning.com/
If you decide to use 3rd PlanIt, don't hesitate to ask questions. There are several experienced users on the forums.
Dave, I went back to your layout plan (hopefully to the right version). I don't see a lot of room for mountains or complex scenery, which is fine. So one option could be to apply a layer of cork, which is a lot easier to work with than Homasote, if you plan to apply a full layer on your plywood and then remove the extra material for ditches and space around the buildings. Were you planning on using a router to remove the material?
Hi Dave
Looks like it is going to be a great layout! What program did you use to draw your layout? I'm looking for one. Thanks.
Jack
Track fiddlerI'm just wondering why homasote is not a good option Dave? I have read many times through the years of its ability to hold fasteners well.
Hi TF,
That is a really good question! The more I think about this, the more I realize how difficult it will be to get the top sheet of plywood completely smooth. Thanks to those who have pointed that out.
I only need two sheets of Homasote. They run at about $40.00/4x8 sheet locally. That's peanuts. My old club used Homasote and it worked really well. I particularly like the fact that the Homasote can be bevelled to create deeper ditches where desired instead of having to carve into the foam.
Okay, I'm sold!!! Homasote it is!!!
Thanks TF and everyone for helping me straighten my wee brain out!
Post hog
I'm just wondering why homasote is not a good option Dave? I have read many times through the years of its ability to hold fasteners well.
TF
snjroy I agree, 1/4'' is flimsy, especially if Dave makes cuts around it to expose the foam. Simon
I agree, 1/4'' is flimsy, especially if Dave makes cuts around it to expose the foam.
Simon makes a good point.
I thought it was best when I started my 4 by 8 layout to make a full sized track plan out of railroad board (poster board) taped together the size of the layout.
Then the cookie cutter can be cut out of the railroad board and traced on the plywood to be cut out. It was quite tedious but I thought it was well worth it in the end.
I did it for the ability to create grades easily. But if they are needed to create a solid based sub roadbed for fasteners, you will also have exposed foam to carve. The principle is the same and 2" paths of quarter inch plywood is sure less resilient to glue down then big sheets. Your templates could be made out of 3) 4' x 5'4" sections and puzzle pieced together on the plywood to trace
Good morning Dave
I can appreciate your idea of installing the first layer of thin plywood on your benchwork framing first to create a flat solid base for a good starting point.
Then the sandwiching of the 2-inch foam and the second thin layer of plywood on top pulled tight with temporary screws to hold everything flat while the adhesive is drying sounds like a good idea.
It has been my experience that thin sheet goods when installing screws will dimple easily. Whether they stay that way fastened to foam is another thing. Especially at the seams unevenness could easily become a negative result as foam is not a very resilient product.
I would be prone to use large fender washers and especially at the seams, a screw and a fender washer every 6" fastened close enough to the seems so the fender washer holds both edges of the plywood evenly together.
My thoughts for an even better result would be to use 5' 4" (2x4's) 1 foot OC with clamps if you have enough. Or 5" screws through the pre-drilled 2x4's into the framework to hold everything uniform might have an even better result. Slow drying adhesive and temporary screws to hold everything in place before clamping. Then a fender washer and a screw in between each 2x4 on the seams just snug.
If you were just sandwiching 4x8 sheets together, your procedure would be a rather simple one. I can see how a 5' 4" x 12' layout top creates quite a challenge.
I hope things go well for you with this project, I'm confident they will. After all, it's not just any Joe that can build a rotisserie layout
hon30critter Getting the thin plywood to sit smoothly on the foam will be a challenge.
Getting the thin plywood to sit smoothly on the foam will be a challenge.
Rich
Alton Junction
I used caulk to attach the foam to the plywood - my plywood was screwed in to the frame. It does take a LONG time to set up, since there is practically no air flow - and that was for small 2x8 pieces. Covering a whole 6x10 - I'd use contact cement that's foam safe, or some other type of adhesive that doesn't require air to set up.
rrinker At the time, I still had all my copies of back issues of MR, so I stacked those up to hold the foam on the plywood while the glue dried. Now I don't know what I would use. I have far fewer stacks of magazines to use these days, and a much bigger layout to build.
Getting the thin plywood to sit smoothly on the foam will be a challenge. My current thoughts are to first glue the bottom layer of plywood to the benchwork and use my brad nailer to anchor it down as smooth as possible. Once that dries, I will glue down the 2" foam and the top layer of plywood at the same time. I will then use 2 1/2" screws to pull the top layer of plywood and the foam tight to the bottom layer and the benchwork. I can use tons of screws because I will remove them once the glue has dried. They don't have to go into the benchwork framing. Just pulling the two layers of plywood tight together will do the job. I will wait several days before removing the screws.
A quicker alternative would be to use contact cement as doctorwayne does, but I'm inclined to use glue or caulking because they will permit things to be adjusted if need be.
At the time, I still had all my copies of back issues of MR, so I stacked those up to hold the foam on the plywood while the glue dried. Now I don't know what I would use. I have far fewer stacks of magazines to use these days, and a much bigger layout to build.
rrinkerNot sure what your old club did, but there's no reason for track and roadbed not to hold securely directly on extruded foam.
Hi Randy.
I'm sure the problem with the club layout was not caused by rough handling because the layout would usually run fine after it was set up. It was only when the temperature and/or the humidity began to rise that the problems occurred. We would go to two day shows and everything would work great for a day and a half, and then half way through the second afternoon things would start to derail everywhere.
In any case, I've got the plywood for the top layer so I think I'm going to use it. I can't see it doing any harm, other than making track spikes harder to drive. I'll try driving track nails into it before I make a final decision. Maybe I won't use track spikes at all, but I like the idea of being able to adjust the track position easily.
I will have to make a few cutouts before I install it where the scenery will go below the track level, but that's no big deal.
I think the biggest challenge will be figuring out how to keep the thin plywood flat while the adhesive dries. I have lots of 2 1/2" screws that I could run through the foam to the bottom plywood layer, and then take them out after a few days once the caulking has set.
I get the bottom layer, I did the same for mounting stuff underneatht he layout like switch machines. But the top layer of plywood? Twice now I've simply caulked roadbed to the foam, and neither time was it going anywhere. The last oen even survived a hack job cutting through the track and roadbed (I built the benchwork in sections, but laid the cork and track right over the gaps, so to take them apart, I had to cut through both the rail and roadbed). It made the move and sat in a not super pleasant basement, and nothing was falling off or moving when I stripped off the electronics before scrapping the whole thing.
Not sure what your old club did, but there's no reason for track and roadbed not to hold securely directly on extruded foam. Maybe if they weren;t very careful in handling the sections and dropped them, or they bounced around a lot in the transport vehicles - then I make no gurantees. I can say our club modules are transported in ways to make it hard to drop them, and when packed in the racks in the trailers, they are wedged in so they don't bounce around on turns. Downside is we are stuck with specific model trailers because if the inside dimensions don't match, we'd have to come up with a whole new packing scheme.
I'm going to put the yard plan aside for now. I need to get back to working on the layout. I was going to do most of the wiring first but instead I have decided to install the 2" foam. That will give me something to draw the track plan on so I won't be guessing where the buses and the other wiring needs to go.
I'm going to sandwich the 2" foam with 1/8" plywood on both the top and the bottom. The bottom sheet will give me something to screw the Tortoises and other devices into, and the top sheet will provide a firm base for the track nails. My desire to provide a solid surface for the track nails is based on my old club's experience with their portable layout. That layout had cork laid directly on top of 2" of foam and it wasn't a very stable arrangement. Things were constantly shifting around which caused frequent derailments. My layout won't be dragged down the road constantly like the club's portable layout was, but it will be in a garage without climate control. I want to do everything possible to make my layout stable.
On the plus side my vertigo has mostly quit so I can go back at the control panels. I just have to be careful when I lean forward so I don't do a face plant!
hon30critter Overmod The longer-radius lead 'bypassing the ladder' only goes to one track. What does this track do? It is intended to be a caboose track. Dave
Overmod
The longer-radius lead 'bypassing the ladder' only goes to one track. What does this track do?
It is intended to be a caboose track.
That's how I am doing mine, and also how I've seen it suggested in more than one yard design book.
OvermodThe peculiar thing that occurs to me is that the long-radius main that transits this yard hits four switches, three facing-point, which takes out much of the advantage of increased radius. I'm not quite sure that the length of track represented by that outside main up to the crossover actually gives you much, and perhaps using just one 'higher-number crossover' at the yard entry instead of the turnout quickly followed by sharp crossover might be better, and save you the cost of one turnout...
Hi Overmod,
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your suggestion. I re-did the drawing with track and turnout #s.
Click on the drawing to enlarge it:
There is some space available at the bottom. I may put in a RIP track just for interest.
OvermodThe longer-radius lead 'bypassing the ladder' only goes to one track. What does this track do?
The peculiar thing that occurs to me is that the long-radius main that transits this yard hits four switches, three facing-point, which takes out much of the advantage of increased radius. I'm not quite sure that the length of track represented by that outside main up to the crossover actually gives you much, and perhaps using just one 'higher-number crossover' at the yard entry instead of the turnout quickly followed by sharp crossover might be better, and save you the cost of one turnout...
The longer-radius lead 'bypassing the ladder' only goes to one track. What does this track do? Is it 'safety' against switch failure at the yard ladder throat?
FYI, any work with power tools is still on hold. I'm still feeling light headed and I'm still experiencing vertigo occassionally.
Here is a slightly updated version of the yard which allows better access to the upper yard tracks from the bottom track:
snjroyHi Dave. Questions for you about the yard : -do you have or plan having several cars? -do you mind backing up a loco in your yard?
I want to have enough cars in the yard that I can make up whatever length trains suit my fancy. The locals will be short because there are only be so many actual destinations on a 5' x 12' layout and all of those spurs will only hold a few cars. I do want to be able to run longer trains even if they are just going around in circles. I like to watch trains!
I don't mind backing trains into the yard. I am using Peco medium turnouts to make that easier to do.
snjroyThe answers will help you decide whether you want escape tracks, i.e., tracks that allow a loco to pull in the yard, and switch to a parallel track to get out. You can put one escape track between two storage tracks without losing to much space... that's what I would do.
I have an escape track at the bottom of the yard on the west end. There is also a crossover fairly close to the yard entrance. Those will (I think) allow locomotives to escape their trains regardless of which way they entered the yard.