doctorwayneI don't know if they'll be much help with your project, Dave, but there are more photos of the construction HERE.
Hi Wayne,
The additional pictures and explanations will be very helpful.
Thanks,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I use the product above, or it's equal called "PolySeamSeal" adheasive caulk. There are other adheasive caulks, they will all work, but these two products have the best adheasion vs consistancy for this application. They spread easily and hold well. I use them every day in my work restoring and renovating houses. I would never use "regular" ALEX painters caulk, it is NOT an adheasive...... But that's just me. Sheldon
I use the product above, or it's equal called "PolySeamSeal" adheasive caulk.
There are other adheasive caulks, they will all work, but these two products have the best adheasion vs consistancy for this application.
They spread easily and hold well.
I use them every day in my work restoring and renovating houses.
I would never use "regular" ALEX painters caulk, it is NOT an adheasive......
But that's just me.
Sheldon
I have a contractor friend here in town that also highly rates this Polyseamseal. I ran a few little test with some and was not so impressed. But I am now thinking that the tube I had was too old. It made me go back to there polyurethane product,...thats probably too strong of an adhesive. Perhaps I'll get another tube of the polyseamseal.
There was another product I used to glue my 2 layers of masonite together for the roadbed of my helix. It was Titebond ll,...also recommended by my contractor friend who used it on countertops, including corian ones. It seems to have done an excellent job here, and when I experiented with gluing Atlas track to the masonite it appeared to do a very good job at that. It appeared to make a very good bond to the masonite, but when I finally pried it up with a scraper I don't think the track ties themselves were glued to the masonite. But it was still a bond strong enough to result in a considerable lifting of the skin layer of the masonite rather than the separation of the track.
I was also surprised at the PVC cements,..
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Guide Plate
The rest of the track won't shift much once the ends are fixed in place. One approach: lay the track with your usual glue (a lot of people use caulk), but clamp a straight piece of wood to the roadbed, against and tangent to the outside ties to keep the flex from straightening; this will help align the next flex when you solder. Then add a squirt of superglue or superglue gel between ties at each rail end to glue the ends to the roadbed. Wait for it to dry or use accelerant and you should be good to go.
I like this idea.
As a test, I clamped an old piece of 3/4 ply across the double tracks and it worked very well. I'm now working on an idea to place a couple of thin 'guides' on the bottom of this flat piece of wood that will hold the 2 tracks at a set distance apart, and also in a center position on the 6 inch subroadbed they are being glued to.
When I'm caulking down my flex track, I use pushpins. However thats going into caulk and then pink foam, so that won't work for you.
Is it possible to push a thumbtack into the masonite? You could drill a small pilot hole if necessary, but it seems like that would be a pain. The thumbtacks are just to hold it while it glues, though there'd be no reason to remove them.
Anyone have a spare Ribbonrail or similar alum track device in 29" and/or 32",...or even anything in between? I might be able to cut up a 5-6" long one to make my 8 'devices'.
I used Powerhead Wood Screws to hold down Peco Code 100 track in my helix. The head is thinner than washers (about 1/16”) and they are self tapping, worked great! Just search for the name as above.
mbinsewi railandsail What's Moosehead? It's a Canadian beer. Adds just the right amount of weight to the tracks. Of course, the beer still needs to be in the can for it to work properly, and after all caulk has cured, it's best served in a frozen mug, to celebrate the track gangs accomplishments. But then, If you have more track to weigh down, you need to get more Moosehead, the the cycle continues. Mike.
railandsail What's Moosehead?
It's a Canadian beer. Adds just the right amount of weight to the tracks. Of course, the beer still needs to be in the can for it to work properly, and after all caulk has cured, it's best served in a frozen mug, to celebrate the track gangs accomplishments.
But then, If you have more track to weigh down, you need to get more Moosehead, the the cycle continues.
Mike.
Big smile this morning.
railandsail Guide Plate The rest of the track won't shift much once the ends are fixed in place. One approach: lay the track with your usual glue (a lot of people use caulk), but clamp a straight piece of wood to the roadbed, against and tangent to the outside ties to keep the flex from straightening; this will help align the next flex when you solder. Then add a squirt of superglue or superglue gel between ties at each rail end to glue the ends to the roadbed. Wait for it to dry or use accelerant and you should be good to go. I like this idea. As a test, I clamped an old piece of 3/4 ply across the double tracks and it worked very well. I'm now working on an idea to place a couple of thin 'guides' on the bottom of this flat piece of wood that will hold the 2 tracks at a set distance apart, and also in a center position on the 6 inch subroadbed they are being glued to.
Guide Plate Fixture
I have been playing with these various ideas of how to lay this Atlas flex track (that ALWAYS wants to go straight!) into the curves of my helix, get its jointers soldered without kinks, get the feeders attached, get the proper separation between the dual tracks, AND get it glued down all at one time. Plus I am trying to attach the track to masonite HARDBOARD roadbed that does NOT accept nails, tacks, nor pushpins to help hold things in place while doing some of the other operations, and to hold the track down while the glue dries.
My initial thought was to make some helper guide pieces that could be clamped onto the helix roadbed,... to both position the dual tracks, and hold then down while the glue dries. The mock-up of that guide piece might look like this,...a piece of 1-2” wide piece of wood about 5/8-3/4” thick, 6” long,.. the width of my helix roadbed (the grey piece is a spare piece of my 6” wide painted masonite roadbed, and the guide piece is that yet to be cut piece of wood laying across the tracks)
Mounted on the bottom of that guide piece you will see two little track guide rectangles that fit inside the rails of both tracks,...keeping the dual tracks at a set center-to-center distance, and keeping them centered on the roadbed. In this particular case those little guide pieces are just laminate flooring glued to the bottom of the wood guide piece. I also think I could segment up a piece of one of those alum Ribbonrail pieces to make the little rectangle pieces,...(lets see, how about 3/4” length pieces cut from 5” long ribbonrail would net 6 pieces)...
I figure 3, maybe 4 of these 'guides' clamped at interval along the 3 foot length of track should be plenty to maintain a nice even curve.
Those guides should also provide enough clamping pressure doing gluing. But just in case there is a desire for be more,... simply provide some extra weights between the guide fixtures.
I'm thinking you could lay at least two 3 foot sections in there with all the corresponding guide fixtures (6-8), then unclamp all the middle guides leaving just the end ones in place, spread on the glue under the tracks, and reinstall those clamps. Or maybe just develop a sequence working around the circle guide after guide.
Soldering the feeders will be done afterwards, utilizing my new resistance soldering unit,...with the tweezer attachment,....great item for this. Perhaps borrow one if you don't have one.
NOTE added:I went away from this screw-washer arrangement to just a #6 screw with a 'truss head',...shown later in discussion
Screw it Down, No Glue
Why not just use short flat head screws? I have seen several helices where the track was simply screwed down every few inches. The screws are installed between the ties as opposed to through a tie so in effect they are holding down two ties. The screw heads apparently don't cause any problems even though they stick up above the ties. Your equipment will have to be properly tuned of course, with no low hanging coupler pins or snow plows, but you are going to do that anyhow to make sure that they clear turnout frogs etc. I'm assuming that you haven't assembled the helix roadbed yet and that you will have enough clearance to install the screws as you build the helix. Dave
Why not just use short flat head screws? I have seen several helices where the track was simply screwed down every few inches. The screws are installed between the ties as opposed to through a tie so in effect they are holding down two ties. The screw heads apparently don't cause any problems even though they stick up above the ties. Your equipment will have to be properly tuned of course, with no low hanging coupler pins or snow plows, but you are going to do that anyhow to make sure that they clear turnout frogs etc.
I'm assuming that you haven't assembled the helix roadbed yet and that you will have enough clearance to install the screws as you build the helix. Dave
If you just want to hold the curve in alignment till the glue sets you could use larger screws with washers and drive them between the ties letting the washers clamp the ties in place. I've also seen folks use this method in helix without glue and just leave the screws and washers in place....DaveB
There have been two such suggestions from 2 forums. I am really liking the idea. I went to my local ACE hardware store the other day and found these items,..
Here are several photos with them installed in an experiment,.
As you can see the washer fits very nicely in between the tie plates for 2 ties, giving a nice broad support. The screw hold is between the ties instead of thru that small existing hole in the Atlas track, allowing for a bigger screw than those very small number #4,....and it means the spacing/location of these tie down screws is totally optional, not restricted to the atlas holes.
I also like the idea that the hole in the washer is a bit larger than the screw. That could allow for some movement/readjustments in the future for any expansion/contraction. (BTW I don't think there are real problems with track expansion in curved helix tracks of large diameter,...as MarkP noted, “The rails maintain the curve through the joint by flexing to the minimum strain energy state , I learned that particular phrase in engineering school”.
The screws also act very well with my masonite hardboard roadbed in the helix. No searching for the 'correct glue', and all the mess that entails getting it down under the track,...and not being able to re-adjust things if that becomes an issue.
I believe I can get away with as little as 3 of these screw attachments per segment of track,...maybe 4. And I might be able to put them right at the joints in the rails.
I'm sold on this idea.
...And if that weren't enough convincing, I can utilize this same attachment method in my metal bridges to the helix. Here is a sample where I attached my track and rerailer to the bridge that will feed my staging tracks,..
Wouldn't the coupler pin hit the screwhead? Nevermind, just make sure they sit below the rail.
- Douglas
There's also a type of screw out there with whats called a "pancake" head. It has a flatter profile.
Look on line, and at your hardware store, check out the Hilmann Fastener drawers, just about all hardware stores have them. Stacks of plastic cases with drawers.
My You Tube
Had trouble finding a #6 pancake head screw?
The next morning I was rethinking that countersunk screw and washer situation being relatively 'fixed', and I do recall trying a pan headed screw while I was at my ACE store. The pan head screw was just a bit high when used with the washer.
My contractor friend was over that morning, and he just casually picked up a small screw I had laying out in a small pile of candidates I had been working on. It turned out to be a #6 with a slightly bigger head than a #6 pan head. i decided to go look at what other screws might be used WITHOUT the washer,...have the head of the screw span the two ties. I went and looked at Home Depot & Lowes and found almost exclusively pan headed screws in #6 size. They had bigger headed screws in the next size up,..the #8, .....but those are a bit to big to fit comfortably between the ties.
I went back to my ACE store and found a screw identical to that one my friend had found casually that morning. Its a 'truss head', #6. I bought a box of them and came home to give them a try. This is now my go-to screw for the hidden tracks in the helix,..both on the masonite roadbed, and the metal bridge structures. Washers no longer needed.
Here it is on my helix bridge to staging,...
I had already gone forward with my washer/screw idea on my double cross and two ramps feeding the helix,...
I went back and changed that to the new screw idea,...no washers
Brian, great solution for your situation, but not new at all. When I was a child, and my father set up our rather large Christmas Garden, 5x18, he used flat head wood screws to hold down TruScale wood roadbed track for easy removal and reuse the next year.
I used #4 X 1/2" wood screws and a thin washer (#6 I think) and the screw nearly goes through the washer - but not quite. This makes the smallest possible protrusion above the ties. I also used code 100 atlas flex track. This all worked G-R-E-A-T! I soldered all my joints, and cut my isolation joints a ways away from the soldered joints with a dremel wheel after the track was down.
Viewing & Access Door
Got a little delayed this past weekend with some house projects, and a trip to the west to buy a glass paneled storm door for my helix structure. If you recall my older neighbor had said he would like to view into the helix innards without having to duck under to get inside. And I was going to build some sort of access door to get at the 3 way staging turnout. So this door is going to solve both of those problems,...just have to do some custom cutting and framing...
Fit in here and opens out to the left,..
Work in progress
Still a mess, but here are some construction photos. I'm pleased with the access I am going to have to the 2 turnouts I will have in the helix structure, and the open side access I will have to the trains running in the helix.
And then my upper loop track that hangs in space as it has no bridge structure yet,...
Brian,
Your helix is coming along nicely!
My Powerhead screw suggestion above gets you more clearance and no washers needed.
Dan
BuchananBucks My Powerhead screw suggestion above gets you more clearance and no washers needed. Dan
I looked at those powerheads you spoke of and noted 2 concerns,..
1) they didn't appear to have a shorter versions,...like 3/8" long I'm using to attach to masonite and alum roadbed?2) it appeared in several photos that they had a broadening of their shaft just under the head?3) they certainly had a nice big dia head
Sry, I missed that you were using masonite. I used 1/2" cabinet grade plywood and they worked great. Good fortune on your build!
I almost wish I had used something other than the masonite when I consider that I had to do double the cutting (2 layers of 1/8"), then all the gluing of that double layer, then all the sealing of the masonite.
All in the effort to get a rigid, THIN layer of roadbed.
Laying the Double Track portions
I made a different 'fixture' to assist with the laying of the double track portion. Since I am NOT gluing the track down, but rather screwing it, I thought why not have a 'guide' that could be temporarily attached to the helix roadbed itself. Why not simply cut a circular strip of material that would fit between the double track's ties, and just make sure to center that strip on my roadbed width.
I made my 'guide' of a scrap piece of masonite I had left over from cutting out the roadbed.
I get a consistent 3" spacing between the tracks, and its quite easy to simply lay the tie ends against the guide for a nice smooth curve.
Then move that 'guide' around to the next segment. BTW I soldered 2 pieces of flex track together before bringing them into the helix. The next 6 foot segment was added inside.
So part double track, part single track? Are you going to put any side cards to keep derailed cars from falling over the edge to peril?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Something, but I don't know what yet.
The double track work is going slower than I anticipated, but I am trying to get it really right. I have already discovered a few spots where I had to 'relevel' the track roadbed. And my hopes of skipping every-other support bracket for the double track portion is fading.
Not feeling so well yesterday morning, so everything got pushed back a day.
First day I got the Athearn diesel running on all the tracks except the very upper loop that has yet to get its bridge (scrap yard not cooperating with the correct piece yet...ha..ha). It was strictly a DC powered test, and the power was transmitted thru the track itself that has all the joiners soldered. Power was consistent top to bottom.
I decided to solder all the joints in the helix tracks as I was just not comfortable with the real & potential kinks that were/could occur in the curved tracks.
I got one of my older steam engines out to run as well, and it found a few little spots that needed 'fine tuning'. I ran both of the locos up and down a number of times, and at slow speeds to find any little glitches. It was a productive test. I found a few spots that had a very small elevation change over a track joint, and fixed those.
I think you can see I have considerable height between levels to get at the trains,...its only about 4". As a result of the 'cantilevered' support of the roadbed I also have very easy access to the trains for rerailing etc, ...and the track for cleaning etc.
I've also solder in all my feeder wires for DCC operation. Have not installed the buss wires yet.
All right Brian. First test runs. I'm starting to believe!
Still checking in from time to time.
Safety Catchment
Somewhere I recall seeing some sort of a safety line/wire/string being rigged up. Seems as though it was pretty simple/cheap/effective.
Does anyone know where that reference might be??
What probably concerns me most is the long trains falling to the inside of the inner curve should the train stall out, then need to restart while in the helix. I once had a very bad experience with a brand new BLI articulated loco that was pulling a long string of cars around a tight turn on my old layout. When I went to restart the train I put too much power to it and the string of cars pulled the loco off the tracks onto a concrete floor. I was devastated, but fortunately the damage was not as bad as I expected.
Thin clear acrylic or plexiglass sheets cut into strips would probably be the most common solution.
Stringlining is a problem for long trains when going around tight turns. They get get pulled sideways nearly as much as forwards. Your radius is probably broad enough for that to not be a huge problem.
Safety String
I found one of those references I had seen,....HERE
It has a "DOT approved guardrail" consisting of a single yellow stretched nylon mason string to keep the trains off the floor (It works quite well).
I went through all the various options for a safety rail system. Perhaps ripped masonite strips, narrow pieces of plexy glass, some type of metal strips, but they all were expensive, hard to install and not easily removable for doing maintenance or for re-railing rolling stock. The string costs about $4.00 for a roll and I used 2" pan head sheet metal screws for uprights. I also used small screw eyelets to run between the wood uprights. The "railing" height is about 1-1/8" and it does have a learning curve on getting it really tight and keeping it that way while you tie it. Get out your Boy Scout handbook on knot tying! I figure the whole railing for an 8 tier helix cost me less than $10. I did some trials on how effective the railing is at keeping trains off the floor and I literally could not get a car to jump it! They just bounced off and stayed on the helix. Jim Leighty
I went through all the various options for a safety rail system. Perhaps ripped masonite strips, narrow pieces of plexy glass, some type of metal strips, but they all were expensive, hard to install and not easily removable for doing maintenance or for re-railing rolling stock. The string costs about $4.00 for a roll and I used 2" pan head sheet metal screws for uprights. I also used small screw eyelets to run between the wood uprights. The "railing" height is about 1-1/8" and it does have a learning curve on getting it really tight and keeping it that way while you tie it. Get out your Boy Scout handbook on knot tying! I figure the whole railing for an 8 tier helix cost me less than $10. I did some trials on how effective the railing is at keeping trains off the floor and I literally could not get a car to jump it! They just bounced off and stayed on the helix.
Jim Leighty