Yes, precuts, that what you got.
All 2x4's are not created equal, that's why there are several different piles of them at the lumber yard......or the orange box store.......and the piles have tags with descriptions.......different lenghts, different species of wood, different grades.......
Kevin, your approach is interesting, and for your goal of one man operation I think you are going in the right direction.
Just curious, if you don't mind, what do you do for a living?
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALJust curious, if you don't mind, what do you do for a living?
.
Sheldon, I do not ever talk too much about my job on here.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just curious, if you don't mind, what do you do for a living? . Sheldon, I do not ever talk too much about my job on here. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just curious, if you don't mind, what do you do for a living?
OK, I understand.
I think the benchwork will look great. It's probably stronger than what we need, but the stoutness of it will give a much more quality feel to the entire layout.
1x stock can be untwisted or unbowed fairly easily as its screwed or clamped together. The stuff that's curved along its strong edge is no better than kindling, IMO.
As far as plywood, I picked up some Sande Plywood at the orange store, as I was apparently mezmorized by its beautifully smooth and uniform surface at the time. Got it home and realized it has about the same density as balsa wood. No kidding. I'll probably toss it and pick up more traditional stock.
- Douglas
rrinker I'll have to drive my truck down your way Sheldon and pick up plywood, the HD and Lowes by me sure do have birch and oak and other plywoods, but ALL of them are 5 plys of the same garbage that is their ragular AC plywood, with a very thing veneer layour of birch or oak, etc. Unless that's what you mean - it just looks good on the face. The good stuff is 13 birch plies, or maybe it's 11 halfway decent plies with a birch veneer. Either way, the more plies, the better, at least if trying to use it as a replacement for dimensional lumber. As a cabinet face, I guess it doesn't make a whole lot of difference as long as the finished side that shows is really nice. --Randy
I'll have to drive my truck down your way Sheldon and pick up plywood, the HD and Lowes by me sure do have birch and oak and other plywoods, but ALL of them are 5 plys of the same garbage that is their ragular AC plywood, with a very thing veneer layour of birch or oak, etc. Unless that's what you mean - it just looks good on the face. The good stuff is 13 birch plies, or maybe it's 11 halfway decent plies with a birch veneer. Either way, the more plies, the better, at least if trying to use it as a replacement for dimensional lumber. As a cabinet face, I guess it doesn't make a whole lot of difference as long as the finished side that shows is really nice.
--Randy
Agreed, more plies means better plywood.......
But, as a carpenter, almost cabinet maker, call me a master trim carpenter......
I would never use plywood to replace deminsional lumber - I don't buy that theory one bit - no matter how many plies.
Plywood will never have the edge fastener holding ability/stablity of demensional lumber.
It is much better to just use good lumber, Poplar in particular. Being the dividing line between hard and soft woods, Poplar mills well, is strong, is generally very stable, takes glue and fasteners well, and if needed paints or stains very well.
Just a general statement here, I am a fan of strong benchwork. I want benchwork I can climb on, benchwork I can lay a protective cover on the layout and lean my weight on to work on deeper sections of scenery.
I don't like foam, tried it several times briefly, will not use it on the new layout. I don't see the point , I would NEVER lay track on it. I'm more a hydrocal hardshell or plaster on wire screen kind of guy......
But then again, we don't use rigid foam in the construction work we do........
Most of the "plywood as dimensional lumber" techniques I've seen don't end nail or screw it, except possibly when making an L girder, and that's just to hold things while the glue dries, it's a glued joint, not a nailed/screwed one. On right angle joints, nailing blocks are used, so all screws only ever go through the face of the plywood.
I guess if I wanted to climb on it, I'd build everything from 2x4s. The old club did that, since it is a permanent layout. All vertical supports are built as stud walls, even ones that are at most 3 feet tall. It's not build individual legs with stringers between them - continuous support 16" on center, just like a structural wall. This does cause some access issue to the underside. I'm really shooting for the opposite - as much unrestricted under-layout access as possible, both for the initial build and then as storage. Girder type structures like L girders allow a far longer run between legs. As long as I cna lean on it without it falling over, I'm good. I have no plans to use the layout as a stepladder to reach the ceiling - abd very little if anything up in the ceiling, like plumbing runs, will fall above the planned layout area anyway (not by careful design, but more a happy accident with the way things are run in my house).
I;ve had good luck with 2 layouts with foam tops, but I'm going to a mostly open arrangement this time for better vertical scenery. But my days of screen and hydrocal are long gone, I will be cutting the basic shapes for large areas from extruded foam, smaller areas may get the cardboard web approach.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Most of the "plywood as dimensional lumber" techniques I've seen don't end nail or screw it, except possibly when making an L girder, and that's just to hold things while the glue dries, it's a glued joint, not a nailed/screwed one. On right angle joints, nailing blocks are used, so all screws only ever go through the face of the plywood. I guess if I wanted to climb on it, I'd build everything from 2x4s. The old club did that, since it is a permanent layout. All vertical supports are built as stud walls, even ones that are at most 3 feet tall. It's not build individual legs with stringers between them - continuous support 16" on center, just like a structural wall. This does cause some access issue to the underside. I'm really shooting for the opposite - as much unrestricted under-layout access as possible, both for the initial build and then as storage. Girder type structures like L girders allow a far longer run between legs. As long as I cna lean on it without it falling over, I'm good. I have no plans to use the layout as a stepladder to reach the ceiling - abd very little if anything up in the ceiling, like plumbing runs, will fall above the planned layout area anyway (not by careful design, but more a happy accident with the way things are run in my house). I;ve had good luck with 2 layouts with foam tops, but I'm going to a mostly open arrangement this time for better vertical scenery. But my days of screen and hydrocal are long gone, I will be cutting the basic shapes for large areas from extruded foam, smaller areas may get the cardboard web approach. --Randy
I understand.
To me it is just simpler to build a flat open grid from good quality 1x4's, legs every 6' because that is my basic "module size" for possible future relocation. One set of legs at each 6' joint.
3/4" plywood for sub roadbed and large flat areas. Some stuff will be done "cookie cutter" style.
Any given 6' module can be lower than primary base elevation for an area with lower vertical scenery requirements.
My new layout will be fairly deep, 3' to 4' in places, but visable track will basically be in the front 2'.
For me, I just don't see the advantage to foam?
I think I will be installing a removable wood panel ceiling, best idea I have seen for my already low ceiling height of 7'-2". And I think I am going to keep the layout down at about 40".
My first layout, built by my father, was two 5x9 platforms made from 1/2 marine plywood and 1x4 frames with cross members roughly 18" on center. They each sat on 4 legs, made from 1-1/2" rigid pipe with flanges screwed to blocking in the corners. They were more than strong enough to support a person - my 6' spans are over kill, but are based on my desired module size.
Day 10, Post 1:
It is SO HOT today! 89 degrees at 2:00, we are most likely goig right past 90 soon. These are Summertime temperatures! What is up?
Built the "backdrop" for the segment.
Actually, I built a mock wall. Since the backdrop will be painted right onto the drywall in the layout room, I decided to make a wall with drywall.
I found that cutting the studs a 45 degrees right in the center gave me the 4 foot length I was wanting. I spaced the studs at 24". I saw no need to place them at 16 inches on the mock up.
I lifted the wall in place and anchored it with steel angle braces.
When I screwed the rear L girder toi the mock wall it straightened out quite nicely.
No tipping tendency, whith the 2x4s and relatively heavy drywall on one end of the legs and the relatively light plastic 'board' fascia on the other side?
If I understand what you said, the 'real' layout won't have the drywall mounted to the layout, it will just butt up against the room's drywall, so this wouldn't be an issue on the real thing.
Day 10, Post 2:
rrinker No tipping tendency, whith the 2x4s and relatively heavy drywall on one end of the legs and the relatively light plastic 'board' fascia on the other side?
WHOOPS! Yes, tipping became an issue. Not so much because of the weight, but it was windy outside today and the way the drywall was basically a big sail.
I made a "kickstand" for the rear to keep it from tipping.
It fits into this fabricated slot in the center stud. I added a 1 by 2 against the drywall for some added durability.
A cover plate and two wing nuts hold it in place.
Crisis averted! Yes, on the real layout this will not be an issue.
Fast question because I have never worked with Homasote before:
What is a good way to cut Homasote?
I know that sounds like a silly question for an experienced model railroader to ask, but down here is Florida you cannot get Homasote. I smuggled in a truckload from Indiana a few months ago!
SeeYou190What is a good way to cut Homasote?
I used it on my last layout. I cut what shapes I needed for road bed with a jig saw, OUTSIDE. And you'll probably want to wear a mask.
You could also use a circular saw for long cuts.
Mike.
My You Tube
According to the homosote site, it can be cut with a utility knife. If you are going to use a jig saw, find a knife blade for it.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
It can be scored and scored and scored and snapped, like drywall, which would be fine for long straight pieces. It can be a little "jaggedly" on the snapped edge, but you can trim it with a knive, or sanding block.
It was much faster with a jig saw, and NOT a real fine blade, as it will constantly plug up.
I am off to Home Depot to try to find a knife blade for my jig saw, then it sounds like I need to do some experimentation.
I do have dust masks! Safety is always first.
Amazing place this "Florida" where you cannot buy ordinary building materials?
Did you try any "real" lumber yards rather than box stores....
ATLANTIC CENTRALDid you try any "real" lumber yards rather than box stores
I did not find a knife blade for a jig saw or saws-all at Home Depot.
It is slim picking for the do-it-yourselfer here on the Lower Gulf Coast. We have one very real lumberyard, Raymond Building Supply. Unfortunately they sell to contractors in job lots only.
Other than that, South of Tampa, it is pretty much Big Box stores only, and no Menard's.
Day 11, Post 1:
The reason there will need to be electrical recepticals in the rear of some of the legs is because I need a place to plug in the power packs as in the photo below.
I do not like opening or modifying electrical equipment. This mounting setup allows me to have a flush-like control center without opening the Troller case.
I added stringers from front to rear made out of 2 by 4 to support the track risers.
There will be a "river" that will run front to back on the layout. It will cross at approximately a 55 degree angle. I cut a diagonal support at 55 degrees to fasten the river bed to. I added to sub=stringers for track supports.
I added 1 by 4 to the top of this stringer. This will be a wider surface to jelp level the river.
I have this bridge model that I bought for $5.00 at a train show in February. It has a couple broken pieces, but it photographs very well.
I will use this bridge where the higher trackage crosses the river.
Our club cut about a dozen sheets of Homasote into cookie cutter roadbed with a jig saw with very little mess. We used a blade that had a taper ground into it as opposed to one with the teeth 'set'. The taper ground blades slice the Homasote quite cleanly without generating a lot of dust. Blades with a set to the teeth will tear at the Homasote and that is where the mess comes from.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave, What do you mean about not haveing any teeth set?
I just ordered six knife blades for the jig saw. These have no teeth. Are these what you are describing?
SeeYou190 Dave, What do you mean about not haveing any teeth set? . I just ordered six knife blades for the jig saw. These have no teeth. Are these what you are describing? . -Kevin .
I'm pretty sure he means teeth with no offset from side to side, the blade is smooth along its side. Most blades today have the teeth "kicked" left and right, you have to look for the older style with smooth sides.
I have cut homasote with that kind of blade for decades. Never tried the knife blades.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm pretty sure he means teeth with no offset from side to side, the blade is smooth along its side.
I didn't know you could buy such blades. I know it happens to a blade after alot of use and abuse, but I didn't know you could buy a blade with no set to the teeth.
Maybe the reverse tooth blade would work too. Cuts on the down stroke.
Day 12, Post 1:
I thought the offet from side to side was called "kerf" or something. Would I look for a blade with zero kerf, or something like that.
I am trying to remember back to the four years of high school wood shop I took to remember what Mr. Porta taught me.
It turns out you can buy premium lumber at Home Depot in Southwest Florida, just not the one that is closest to my house in North Fort Myers.
I went to a newer, and larger, store in Cape Coral, and I found Oak, Poplar, Cedar, and very nice looking pine. I bouight several pieces of the pine.
I will post anotyher update later today.
SeeYou190I thought the offet from side to side was called "kerf" or something. Would I look for a blade with zero kerf, or something like that.
Well, actually the kerf of a blade is the slot that the blade takes out,
I think what Dave suggest would be a thin kerf blade.
You can tell when the teeth are out of set, and the kerf is narrower, as the blade binds easily.
Day 12, Post 2:
I finally am installing the track supports.
I fabricated the risers from 1 by 4 and attached a 2 by 2 cleat to the top. I was careful to keep everything square durting the assembly.
The large bridge will cross the river at a 10 degree angle to the backdrop. I made this wedge piece so I could attach the riser at the bridge end at the correct angle.
The riser is attached to the benchwork.
Finally, after another riser was installed, the bridge is looked at in the correct position.
Back to work...
Day 12, Post 3:
I made a template for the shape of the river. I used black foam board to make the template.
I used the template to transfer the shape to a piece of 3/8 inch plywood that will form the river bottom. I added about one and a half inches to wach side for the scenery to attach to.
After the river bottom was in place, I trimmed the fascia board to be flush with the river bottom.
Now it seems that every little bit of progress is making this thing really start to look like something.
SeeYou190Dave, What do you mean about not haveing any teeth set? . I just ordered six knife blades for the jig saw. These have no teeth. Are these what you are describing?
Hi Kevin,
No, they are not knife (smooth) blades. From the side a hollow ground (also called a 'planer') blade looks pretty much the same as any other toothed blade. However, when you look at the teeth themselves, they are not bent to the left or right to expose the tips of the teeth like a blade with 'set' teeth. Instead the blades are ground so that the back of the blade away from the teeth is narrower than the tips of the teeth. If you were to look from the top down the cutting part of the blade is 'V' shaped.
A hollow ground blade cuts differently from a blade where the teeth are bent to the side (set). When a tooth is 'set' it results in the wood being torn away leaving a rough surface. The hollow ground teeth cut with both the tips and the sides of the teeth. That has the effect of planing the sides of the cut instead of tearing it. The result is a very smooth cut. The taper prevents the blade from jamming in the cut. A blade with set teeth where the teeth have lost their set binds in the cut.
I'll see if I can find a picture. Sorry, I can't find any pictures that show the V shape.
hon30critterSorry, I can't find any pictures that show the V shape. Dave
Thank you Dave.
If I do not like the results of the knife blades, I will look for blades like you are describing.
On another note:
New question: What is a good way to attach Homasote to the plywood subroadbed?
DoughlessAs far as plywood, I picked up some Sande Plywood at the orange store, as I was apparently mezmorized by its beautifully smooth and uniform surface at the time. Got it home and realized it has about the same density as balsa wood.
I saw some of this plywood at the Cape Coral Home Depot.
The finished surface is great, but I saw what you meant about the light weight and density.