You are right, my friend...there is no substitute for having done something yourself and in the long run that is going to be my labor of love. Blessings, Doc
Steve, I listened to your advice with the same degree of interest that I gave to the advice that everyone gave me and I appreciate it and I want you to do something for me, promise me that when you do create your first layout you will post it to this site so all of us can take a look at it. I believe you will do it and I have no doubt that it will be far superior to mine! Doc
Hi!
FIrst of all, I'm a strong advocate of "newbies" studying the various Kalmbach books out there before they lay a track or even put a kit together.
That said, you can read all the books there are, and retain all the information within, but until you do the "layout process" hands on, you really don't know the ins and outs of what is really involved.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Just want to point something out, just because I have not built a layout does not render the advice I gave useless, all of it came from the many books about layout building I have read.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
aprofitt0002 Just wanted to see if my new avatar came through...this is a test.... Doc
Just wanted to see if my new avatar came through...this is a test.... Doc
Looks like the avatar worked. My British wife says photo's are a good thing to put in the windows of the house to scare away burglars!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Partly because dad was in stationed in England before he was shot down over France and taken POW by the Germans for 2 1/2 years and we discussed it when I was a boy, and partly because my wife is from Ireland and my ancestry is in Scotland, and partly because she and I watch the PBS show Father Brown which is set in that area of the Cotswolds and it is just plumb beeeutiful, and the Enlgish scale is OO instead of HO. I guess that's about it for reasons. Doc
Mistakes ???? surely you jest.
There are but a few of us born knowing every thing; But I think those other guys lie
As to my mistakes, well they were someone else's fault
I was wondering why OO ??
Butch, I replied but for some reason, I don't think it went through. I just wanted to say I appreciated you sharing your "misfortunes" over the years. Butch, I look at this as a good thing. I don't regret the way I started with the benchwork even though it's not the proper way. If I hadn't started that way, I wouldn't have been able to meet you and so many others through this thread. At the end of the day, I'll get somewhere but I'll enjoy every step along the way and things will be a lot better since I'll have shared this journey with you and others. Sure I'll make mistakes. I expect to, but I don't look at mistakes as set backs but opportunities to enjoy the hobby even more. And you are right, we learn by making mistakes. The main thing is to make the main thing the main thing and the main thing is to enjoy the trip...my interaction on this site just makes that trip more enjoyable. Doc
Butch, you have hit the nail square on the head. I look at all of this...the issue of working out benchwork, choosing an area and a scale to model, choosing a layout, and being able to communicate with people like you and the others as being all good. I don't regret starting the way I did. For one thing, it has opened the door for me to get to know a lot of you fellows who I hope to have a continuing relationship with over the years. Butch, it's just all good ole pal...all good...just have to take things that way and see the good even in mistakes. Most things turn out well if you just give them a chance, but I felt good when I read of your own "misfortunes"... sort of let me know everything's OK. Doc
I'll take a look at that site Mike. I was partly familiar with the area having seen some things on Rick Steves' England...my wife and I watch some PBS programs set in England and one of them is Father Brown. We both really like the area and the archetecture is beautiful plus, the topography reminds me of central Kentucky. The economy of the area was at one time one of the best wool producing areas in England...we used to raise sheep, goats, cattle, horses, etc before we sold the farm and moved to town (after I fell off the roof of the house and the children said "No more of that!") a couple of years ago. As I said before, dad who was in the Army Air Corps in WWII was stationed in southern England. Dad died in 1998...I still miss him and this sort of gives me a chance to look up and say, dad, this is sort of for you. By the way, I've got friends who live in Wisconsin, in Barneveld...run a Case dealership there. We were close when I was into restoring tractors...good people. Doc
Hey Doc, Just want to share my 3cents worth. When I started I did as you;built bench work and layed track.That was before internet. Didn't know about track plans.
The first two layouts didn't las long. Not because of the no plan track plan but of used cheap junk equipment.
Third try; used a published plan, only to find out it wouldn't fit in the space ti said it should.'' Most plans arn't proven, weren't ever built, so must be modified to fit''
Any way I threw that plan aside and layed track. A life change took its toll onthat layout.
Forth try,built bench,layed track, tore some up relayed it moved it ect. Till I had what I liked, and then moved it some more. I found I enjoyed working out the issues in real time. My trains stayed on the track.I could run laps,switch out the industerys or both at the same time. And I liked the way it looked.
So what did I miss by not useing a plan?
A furnance replacment took out that layout and I'm now rebuilding. My bench is built, and without a plan, I'm laying track.
OOPs! I thought you were familiar with the area. I had a good time a couple of mornigs ago, learning about the Cotswolds, through searching and Google satalite images.
It reminds me of the SE. WI. area where I live, except the fields here are square, or rectangle in shape, because of the land surveying and plotting methods used here.
Here's the site where I found the map:
https://visitbytrain.info/cotswolds/index.htm
Mike.
My You Tube
Riogrande ole settler, you received good advice whoever said it. My books have been shipped from Amazon and when I get them I'm going to do some more study. I did a little background study on The Cotswolds last night. I figure a person has to know something about the region you are modelling as well as the sort of equipment, railroad, archetecture, industries, etc that were around in the era of your layout so I've started boning up on my knowledge of Southwest England...never having been there. I'll stay in touch my friend. Doc
Rich, In my previous hobby of tractor restoration I was a member of several forum communities and I've found that, for the most part, good sense and fair play are the rule and not the exception. I've always found that when given the option, grace is most always preferable to justice. I know one thing. I've appreciated all the help I've been given here. I had no idea one shouldn't begin with maximizing one's space for a layout, all I knew was railroad modelling seemed to be just the ticket (pun intended) for me at this stage of my life and I just dived right into it with absolutely no prior knowledge. As I noted above, I now understand more than I did at the beginning and Darlene and I created some more space in the basement and all I have to do now, once I find a layout that suits me and fits the required criteria I can just adjust the benchwork to fit the layout. In my mind, that just adds to the enjoyment of working toward a finished (or never finished) product that is the very best I can create. I do know one final thing, I want to continue to receive help from all of you. I usually take criticism pretty well...after all, I was a pastor for 30 years, not a job for the faint of heart so things will work out fine and I appreciate your spirit my brother. Doc
Hey, Rich...I guess the good thing is I'm not "all cocked"...is there an "all cocked?" If there's a half cocked seems like there ought to be an "all cocked" but that's just me I reckon... Doc
richhotrain The one caveat, though, is that anyone who offers layout building advice ought to acknowledge whether or not he speaks from first hand experience. That caveat ought to apply to everyone on the forum. Rich
Rich
Rich,
I totally agree. Contrary to what a few may think, experience is very important and does matter. Thats a decision making factor for companies hiring employee's too; book knowledge has limits.
In the layout arena, there is no substitute for hands on experience - most people who have built a layout or two or more, "know" that.
I've been on this forum for quite a few years and there was a long period where I went through a separation and divorce, between jobs, and didn't have space for a layout - or work area to do wood cutting or crafts so even building a small module would have been difficult.
Then one day I participated in layout discussion and one guy (obviously sensistive to the fact that hands on experience mattered) said "why are you giving advise? You don't even have a layout". He stuck a ski boot in his mouth that day because I did have a 10x18' layout I was well into building - my third room sized layout. But even prior to that I had built two other layouts (one 16x19' in a garage and a 14x25 in a basement) so I commented on what I had experience with - and kept my mouth shut on things I didn't have experience with.
There is an old saying attributed to Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
NWP SWP I may be inexperienced but I'm not unknowledgable (that's probably not a word) I have spend the past 2 years reading learning gathering information on model railroading, I have spent the past 3 months deeply engrossed in books about layout construction, I was just passing along the knowledge I have. After all this IS a community.
I may be inexperienced but I'm not unknowledgable (that's probably not a word) I have spend the past 2 years reading learning gathering information on model railroading, I have spent the past 3 months deeply engrossed in books about layout construction, I was just passing along the knowledge I have. After all this IS a community.
Alton Junction
NWP SWP In my inexperienced opinion going off all half cocked is a serious mistake that the OP has already made by building benchwork first
In my inexperienced opinion going off all half cocked is a serious mistake that the OP has already made by building benchwork first
That's a bit harsh, don't ya think?
True, it typically makes more sense to design a track plan with the available space in mind, but I can see situations where the available space dictates the size and shape of the layout.
I think that it might be half cocked to build the framework for a specific layout without first considering the dimensions, angles, and radii required for successful completion. But, in Doc's case, he knew the amount of available space and so he built a framework to accommodate some sort of layout and then came to the forum for advice, having no idea exactly what to build.
There might be a more deliberate way to approach the layout building issue, but "going off all half cocked"?
Doc
aprofitt - happy wife happy life!
Nice she is helping you clean out the basement so more space for the layout. more space = good! Trains need lots of space to stretch their legs. Bigger curves too!
aprofitt0002 My wife and I have been cleaning out the basement and I've come up with quite a bit more room... Doc
My wife and I have been cleaning out the basement and I've come up with quite a bit more room... Doc
I believe this is what dreams are made of.
T e d
bearman Rio...huh?
Rio...huh?
Thats Rio Grande!
Now boys...I appreciate any and all help and none of it is forgotten or wasted. My wife and I have been cleaning out the basement and I've come up with quite a bit more room so revising the benchwork will be no issue whatsoever and I know I'll end up doing that, just waiting to get some of those books to check out a plan but it'll get done and I'll learn everything in time and one day, long hence, you'll look back on this and say "I knew him when he was green and ignorant" and I'll have to give all of you the credit for my success! I'll keep in touch and send some pics when there's something worth sending. Doc
By way of example, here is one early draft scale drawing of my planned layout. On square is a 6x6 inches or two squares is a foot. I have only roughed in the major elements at this point - basic track arranement with no sidings or details filled in. The pencil is lightly drawn to make it easy to erase and edit and it's just a smart phone photo which I tweaked a bit:
Bottom is 27 1/2 feet along the long wall. Minimum radius is 32 but a lot of the curves are in the 36 to 42 inch range. Areas with angled lines are walkways with pinch points down to 24" at narrowest. Top area is walkway from stairs from left to right along outside of layout. An alternative plan will be to have the layout use the entire 15' space (top to bottom) and use a lift out at the upper left where the stairs enter the basement.
Yard at bottom is now yet fleshed out. Planning on staging below the yard at bottom. Click on image to see a bigger one.
Here is my layout progress topic at Atlas Rescue Forum - displays better there:
http://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/3737/jims-layout-progress?page=3&scrollTo=107647
NWP SWPIn my inexperienced opinion going off all half cocked is a serious mistake
Concur. That's why, in my humble (but experienced) opinion, it might be better for folks who have never designed any layout to-scale using any tool to refrain from posting their opinions as imperatives.
With some changes to the benchwork, the Original Poster can have a continuous run with no bridge needed. He can also have a yard, turntable, and roundhouse. It’s all a matter of trade-offs in layout design. Not absolutes.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
In my inexperienced opinion going off all half cocked is a serious mistake that the OP has already made by building benchwork first, doc try to come up with a simple once around plan, have 2 sidings one by each station, have a small 4 track yard (can be stub or through), two or three "industries" (like a dairy farm, distillery, and a freight house) that's it, if it's worth doing, DO IT RIGHT.
Far as a swing gate you want to wire the gate in a way that it completes a circuit so if you accidentally leave it open trains can't go crashing to the floor! You could also make it like a draw bridge the two halves hinge up and block the path of a train.
MOST IMPORTANTLY!
JOIN A CLUB!
You will gain knowledge and experience that can only be acquired hands on, you will not regret it!
It looks like OO is included. I used the program and it helped a lot. You can print your design 1:1 which in my opinion was good "just to see" vs trying to use as a template for track laying, but exciting nonetheless. A lot faster than using a ruler, compass, slide-rule, abacus, protractor, etc.
Very useful is that once you have your design on screen the program can tell you the minimum radius of what you designed.
One thing it won't tell however is if your design will be fun.
Sure speeds up the process though, imho. As said earlier, your results may vary.
https://www.scarm.info/index.php#features
Doc, keep us apprised of your progress and dont worry about a failure. One learns from ones failures, and there are any number of people on this forum who would be happy to help you out with any problem.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Sounds like the OP is on the right track.
Thanks to all! I am going to heed your advice and start working on my layout...if the bench needs rebuilding, then so be it but I'm sure it will turn out to be a labor of love to build the thing myeself with the knowledge I have gleaned from all of you and the books I now have on order. Just ordered Ian Rice's book Layout Design. Now, to the good work! Doc
UNCLEBUTCH richhotrain I have been lurking, so I gotta jump in. Doc, you built the framework. Forget the books for the moment. Go buy some track and start laying it. Buy a locomotive and some rolling stock (freight or passenger cars) and run some trains. That will raise issues, questions, and observations to bring back to the forum for resolution. You are worried about too much, too soon. Rich Thats what I said long time ago. Everybody is telling him what he MUST do.We even have kids with no experence giving advice. Let the man lay some track,run some trains. Don't have to be perfect,or meet anyone's approval. The way this is going he will soon feel overwhelmed, that its not worth it and quit before he starts
richhotrain I have been lurking, so I gotta jump in. Doc, you built the framework. Forget the books for the moment. Go buy some track and start laying it. Buy a locomotive and some rolling stock (freight or passenger cars) and run some trains. That will raise issues, questions, and observations to bring back to the forum for resolution. You are worried about too much, too soon. Rich
I have been lurking, so I gotta jump in.
Doc, you built the framework. Forget the books for the moment.
Go buy some track and start laying it. Buy a locomotive and some rolling stock (freight or passenger cars) and run some trains. That will raise issues, questions, and observations to bring back to the forum for resolution. You are worried about too much, too soon.
Thats what I said long time ago.
Everybody is telling him what he MUST do.We even have kids with no experence giving advice.
Let the man lay some track,run some trains. Don't have to be perfect,or meet anyone's approval.
The way this is going he will soon feel overwhelmed, that its not worth it and quit before he starts
richhotrain And I say, let him have at it. Give it a try. Learn the hard way, but the right way. Let him learn from his mistakes. Nothing wrong with that.
And I say, let him have at it. Give it a try. Learn the hard way, but the right way. Let him learn from his mistakes. Nothing wrong with that.
Nothing like hands on experience. But I am an advocate of aprofit not be averse to cutting down the left side and widening the right side, after scaling things out on paper of course! Wood is a pretty easy medium to work with so that wouldn't bother me too much and I consider myself pretty ameture at wood working.
As they say, you can hand a man a fish and feed him for a day. Or, he can learn to fish and feed himself for a lifetime. Rich
There is that. Sure, I can see the temptation to go the easy path and just add a lift out bridge.
Bear, maybe he must listen to Yoda!
“Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.” Yoda
“You must unlearn what you have unlearned.” Yoda
“Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.” Yoda
Rio, obviously it is up to the OP to sift through all of the comments and determine his future course of action.
bearman, the topic is getting long but yeah, I am aware of the OO trains and the setting - my wifes homeland. On the right side of the layout, me thinks it's not going to work.
As for Byron, I may not have a practice set up to design layouts, but I am a student of layout design and am of the same mind and voice on most of the ideas here. My handicap not having much time to spend on layout design with a long work days and a wife who keeps me pretty busy at home with a honey-do list.
riogrande5761 richhotrain I have been lurking, so I gotta jump in. Doc, you built the framework. Forget the books for the moment. Go buy some track and start laying it. Buy a locomotive and some rolling stock (freight or passenger cars) and run some trains. That will raise issues, questions, and observations to bring back to the forum for resolution. You are worried about too much, too soon. Rich Rich, have you looked at the benchwork dimensions? Plot complication showing up on sensors now captain! On the right side with a width of 36 inches, curve radii with HO track for OO trains will be a sardine tight 16 inches - so unless the OP is going to run a GE 44 tonner and only 40 freight cars, or equivelent short British OO equipment, that may be a "slight" problem. Just sayin...
Rich, have you looked at the benchwork dimensions? Plot complication showing up on sensors now captain! On the right side with a width of 36 inches, curve radii with HO track for OO trains will be a sardine tight 16 inches - so unless the OP is going to run a GE 44 tonner and only 40 freight cars, or equivelent short British OO equipment, that may be a "slight" problem. Just sayin...
As they say, you can hand a man a fish and feed him for a day. Or, he can learn to fish and feed himself for a lifetime.
Rio, the OP is looking at running a passenger train, OO scale, through the English countryside. And I have no idea about who makes OO scale locomotives that are/were in passenger service in Merry Old England. At this point, and with due respect to Rich, whose advice I always listen too, maybe Doc should sit back and take Byron up on his oobservations.
cuyamaDrawing a successful track plan to scale is more than just putting lines on the page, one needs to understand the way yards, passing sidings, industrial tracks, etc. work together. Mechanically, one needs to properly render turnouts, crossings, and other track elements to their precise sizes. In turn, this means choosing a manufacturer and track type.
I have found that what works best for me is to look at the space available and, with the aid of a scale drawing of the room boundaries and features, visualize where key elements will need to fit - things such as curve -turnbacks (180 degree circumferance curves, 360 degree circumference curves), yards etc. Then where walkways will need to go etc. That gives me the basic possible track configuration options. I think I'm on the same page as you.
As for turnouts, I measure the length and scale them in and along with the minimum track center spacings, I've found my scale drawing translate pretty well into full size track laying. It seemed to work well enough on my yards for the past 3 layouts (the 2nd posted earlier in this topic). Here is my most recent:
Perhaps the good Doctor is up-to-speed, but more likely some study of Armstrong and of published track plans would be needed to help his efforts bear more fruit.
I've heard of but never read Ian Rice's book, but John Armstrongs I've read over and over and it has been the basis of my personal layout design, along with reviewing many track plans in books and magazines. About the only concept by John Armstrong that I wasn't able to wrap my head around was his "squares" ideal. I disgarded that and used most everything else.
Building benchwork first has already created some unfortunate constraints, committing to a track plan too soon might not be the best step right now.
Having the benchwork built doesn't necessarily have to be a contraint. The nice thing about wood is you can deconstruct it fairly easily, especially if drywall screws were used, and then modify or rebuild it to suite a best track plan for the space. This, of course, is up to the builder.
Here are a few photo's of my deconstruction. I've saved all of the wood and major benchwork sections for re-use and incorporation to a new layout.
Last section standing:
As it turns out we have a bit of a snow delay at the college this morning so I have not yet left for work. Thank you for this map. I wouldn't have thought to do this. I had initially planned on creating the distance between Stowe-on-the-Wold and a little village close by called Wells but having seen this, it might certainly be a better idea to model a section of the actual protypical rail line; especially since neither Stowe nor Wells are served by the railway. I have actually forgotten the name of the line and I need to firm that up in my mind as well. Again - thanks so much for this and what I will now do is try to locate some videos of sections of the line that may lend themselves well to modelling. Appreciate it Mike. Doc
I love to poke around on Google Earth, and satalite views. I was just checking out the Cotswold. Does your proposed rail line cover any of the areas in this map of rail lines and stations in Cotswold?
Have a good day at work.
Reply to all in this one post:
It seems that Cuyanna is speaking from a standpoint of wisdom and the understanding that what you have here in me is indeed someone who is more of a novice than appearances allow. I have to admit, I worried all night about how i was going to "get the job done" today...and get it done right. I haven't priced the book he mentions but, barring anything over $75, I plan on ordering it today. I think Rich also has a good point in saying that, in addition to reading, I need some practical experience with how turnouts, curves, etc work in real time. I am going to follow his suggestion as well and pick up a train and some track. I at least know enough at this point to do that. I will try to keep everybody posted as to my progress, but probably won't go as quickly as I had started out. I now feel much better as i head out to work this morning and I do believe that - even with the constraints of having constructed the benchwork i have - that, with the addition of a swing gate or a bridge of some sort, things will turn out well...but, after all, perfection is not often reached on the first try but is a process that unfolds as both practical and theoretical knowledge and ability increase. I know but one thing for certain at this point and that is I have found a home on this site and have come to appreciate everything everyone has done to help me to this point. I really look forward to the time I can start to "give back" in some way. I think you have me for the long haul and, after all, it is the long haul that matters isn't it. I am grateful to all of you and hope to continue this conversation and many others in the days ahead. Doc
I defer to Cuyama's opinions and recommendations.
Doc, try getting a CAD program when you have some more reading done, and look into a MRR club some hands on will help, you will probably have to join an HO club but it's close enough to OO that the lessons will be transferable.
Well, as far as I'm concerned Byron, you are the track and planning master on here, besides all of the books.
I like the OP's idea, a single purpose, passenegr service between to named towns, going through the West English coutry side, with a few extra siding options at each town. More scenery than a massive bowl of track.
It seems he's willing to shorten the 4' wide space, to allow more space on the narrow end.
I'm sure you can help him out, as you have done with others.
I think folks may be pushing the Original Poster too fast in a direction for which he's not yet prepared. Drawing a successful track plan to scale is more than just putting lines on the page, one needs to understand the way yards, passing sidings, industrial tracks, etc. work together. Mechanically, one needs to properly render turnouts, crossings, and other track elements to their precise sizes. In turn, this means choosing a manufacturer and track type.
Just my opinion, your mileage may vary – and good luck with your layout.
Edit: Although an expensive used book right now (it varies in price from time to time), Iain Rice's book Layout Design (Realistic Railway Modelling) is oriented to English modeling and would likely be a very useful reference -- if a bit dear.
I'll crank that out tomorrow ole settler. Doc
that is all I mean and with the track plan drawn to the same scale.
OK...at the risk of being found out as being incredibly stupid, I'm not sure what you mean by "drawn to scale". The layout plan I posted is drawn to a scale of 3 squares to a foot but if you're talking about drawing an actual track layout in 1/76 scale (OO) I don't know where or how to begin. I wil do it if you give me instructions on how to do it. I await your direction fine sir... Doc
Doc, I have heard of all of those bourbons, and Rebel Yell, Jack Daniels', Buffalo Trace, Jim Beam, and JW Dant. And more. I am a bourbon drinker. Now, we need a track plan drawn to scale.
So, let me get this straight. You don't want me to mark out the towns, cottage industries, etc...you want me to sketch out the track itself? I'm not sure I can do that, but if that's what you need, I'll give it a shot...and, by the way, on the gin deal, you do realize your talking to somebody from Kentucky...ever hear of Kentucky Bourbon??? Maker's Mark? Wild Turkey? Four Roses? etc, etc, etc, supposed to be the best Bourbon in the world. There is one distillery in Scotland that is supposed to be better, but Kentucky is known for its "fine bourbon, beautiful horses, and fast women"...wait a minute, I think that's supposed to be "fine bourbon, fast horses, and beautiful women! Let meknow what you want from me on the track. Doc
Doc, post the track plan based on your bench work, the scenery can wait.
I may be sorely wrong, but, wouldn't a swing gate or some such make coming up with a plan a much simpler process by briding/closing the circuit and making one large loop? What I'll try to do tomorrow is make some copies of my layout that I posted earlier and draw out the scenic elements I want to model and then re-post the updated layout and you all can tell me how to run the track(s). How's that for a winner winner chicken dinner? Doc
Yep, I've learned my lesson but a month ago I didn't even realize this forum existed and I was just trying to maximize the space I had but all is not lost...the liftout bridge or swing gate is probably what I'll try to do if nobody is against it. Doc
John, I hope to model post war England...late 40's to mid 50's. Doc
Hmmmmm...I'l have to study on that, Bear. Somebody mentioned a dairy for a spur...I think that might be more to my liking. Doc
OO - slightly bigger trains than HO which run on HO track. I'm married to a Brit but that doesn't count.
If you modify the benchwork and cut back on the left side to allow a bigger right side you could have a dogbone in the shape of an upsidedown U. Or a liftout bridge and leave the benchwork alone.
Now you are seeing why you need to design track plan AND benchwork on paper before building anything physical
Now you're getting somewhere.
We should also keep in mind that our experience is mostly with North American prototype models, and presumably this one will be strictly British. While OO scale is slightly larger, it is more than offset by the smaller dimensions of the British equipment. Narrower and shorter cars, and much lower overhead clearances. That gives some leeway to squeeze what North American modelers normally consider minimums. I don't recollect whether the OP said what era he was considering.
John
Hey, with a gin distillery you can have rolling stock delivering raw materials to the distillery, and loaded box cars delivering Beefeaters or Bombay to whereever. And, believe me, you will find a new religion when it is time to ballast the track work. Ballasting track is a pain but I have approached it as an experience in Zen.
Well...it's hard to go wrong with gin. (I can't believe I said that after 30 years as a pastor...now retired and morphed into a professor of philosophy and religion...can't go wrong with gin???).... Well, with what you all have already given me, I can take another look at some of the track books I have (I have 3 from Model Railroader) and run one up the pole and see if it flies. At least, with the option of a swing gate I can look at some closed circuit rr's. Doc
The setting is Merry Old England, I vote for a gin distillery.
Sidings an spurs are good, far as "industries" in MRR lingo an industry is ANY trackside facility that is served by the railroad, so and industry could be a steel mill, power plant, quarry, lumber mill, mine, auto factory, even a small local business, so you could have a freight house by the passenger stations, and maybe a Dairy farm or something rural, maybe have a furniture company, or brewery in the town(s) just something to provide operation options.
I prefer mountainous rural scenery in the western US that said I still am going to have a yard and a few "industries" on my layout, otherwise you might end up with an overgrown trainset that you'll quickly become disinterested in.
This is all for you to decide I'm just passing along information.
Doc, right now we are talking in the abstract. Two run two trains at the same time you will need at least one siding and all the other stuff, e.g. spurs, depends on your space and on the mainline route.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but we need a track plan. A track plan will draw others to this thread the way honey draws flies.
OK, this seems like its beginnnig to form into a plan...am I understanding this correctly: a continuous run track (closed track) made posssible by a swing gate with two towns and scenery. If so, I like it! Could I also have sidings at the towns, spurs along the way and some other interest makers for my rr? Could I run two conbtinuous runs in order to run two trains at once? Doc
We need a track plan.
If you want a continuous run train, that can keep going around and around, then yes, I guess it would be the swing gate.
I'd like to do a search and see what kind of equipment you'll be using. I always loved European trains, even though I've never been close to one.
I have collected a few coaches, but haven't bought a loco yet, as I wasn't sure of any voltage stuff, or something I didn't know about.
I think what we have here is an bigger than HO scale train running on HO gauge track. I do not think you are going to go around an 18 inch loop at the scale speed of a bullet train, not to mention the overhang of those long passenger cars as they negotiate the loop.
That's correct, Mike...so, is it the consensus that given the benchwork i have, I will have to either have a swing gate that will get me to the 40' x 48' section across the walkin divide or put in a turntable alone or run a locomotive on either end of the rolling stock or try to fit in a loop? If so, I think the swing gate would be my preference if it will work. I wanted to run depot and terminal sidings in both Stowe and Wells on either end of the line...possible??? Doc
It would also be interesting to see what kind of equipment he'll be using.
He seems confident that what he has in mind will make it around an 18" radius, even if he has to add on just a few inches where the loop is, on the narrow end.
If only one passenger train and two stations with scenery in between is the plan, then it may be doable, but, if continuous running is in the plan, then there is still the issue of the 36 inch penninsula which will not take an 18 inch radius with overhang, not to manetion that those passenger cars may be on the long side and not look all that great maneuvering through an 18 inch loop.
I think what we need here is a track plan drawn to scale.
So just a passenger train. OK, you could use a run around track on each end, as I mentioned earlier.
I had wanted to locate Stowe at one end of the line and Wells at the other end and on the long, 2 foot section just have scenery and one manor house with out buildings and quarters. That was my plan anyway. Doc
I hadn't considered a swing gate. The line that runs from Stowe to Wells is a passenger line. How would I incorporate an industrial line in that context? There are no industries in that part of the Cotswolds...used to be a big wool producing area but that's about all they ever had. Doc
So, OO scale is 1/76, correct? HO is 1/87.
But OO gauge is the same as HO gauge, in the spacing of the rails.?
To The Bearman: yep
Reply to Rio:
I'm going with OO which is thew British equivalent of HO Doc
He could put a loop in the 4ft wide section for reversing it would be 22" radius which is still tight for passenger equipment, I'd suggest for continuous running a swing gate across the aisle. Also Doc you should consider having at least two or three small industries and one yard, it will allow for some operations even if it's just rotating out cars from industry to yard and from yard to industry. On the bright side you have enough room for a turntable! Which is likely your best bet because you can turn Locomotives in less space than having a loop and if you only have one approach track and no roundhouse you are good, but add a round house you will quickly run out of space.
Trouble is he is working in OO scacle slightly bigger than HO scale. I dont think you want anything tighter than 18" in HO.
Ok so a square is 4 x 4 inches - 3 blocks = a foot in a linear direction and a 3x3 on that is 1 square foot.
So on the right side, 36 inches wide will force you to have basically a 16 inch radius curve to fit inside, which is very sharp in HO. In N-scale, not too bad.
Remind me what scale are you working in?
2 ft and 4 ft
How wide is the layout at the two red marks?
My scaled layout on Imgur below:
https://imgur.com/aS1kJl7
Got it. Will do. Doc
Very cool! Lots of that kind of thing in the greater Washington DC, northern Virginia metro area. They call many here "beltway bandits" who are government contractors who just go from contract to contract over the years.
That track plan I posted was one of my paper copies that I scanned to an Adobe PDF document on a flat bed scanner on a large combination copier scanner and emailed it to myself. In that case I scanned two separate 11x17 pages and there are in a PDF together as one long page. I uploaded it to IMGUR, which is my photo host. It displays smaller since it is one long two page PDF. It is also photocopy of an original drawing so some of the detail is lost on it.
Another method, which also works, is you can take a careful photo with your smart phone and email it to yourself and then upload it to a photohost. A flat bed scanner works best but a carefully taken photo as a jpg can work well too.
We have a daughter who pulled two tours in Afghanistan as a gov contractor...she's the one at the state dept. That's where she met her husband who was then an Army medic...now in training to be a neurologist. Hey ole pal, your layout looks a lot like my benchwork! Now - how did you insert this right into the body of your post? That's what i would like to do later today if I can. Doc
aprofitt0002 Replying to Rio Grande: Let me first say one of our children lives in Northern Va in Alexandria. She works at the State Department and her husband is in the Army Medical School at John's Hopkins.
Replying to Rio Grande:
Let me first say one of our children lives in Northern Va in Alexandria. She works at the State Department and her husband is in the Army Medical School at John's Hopkins.
Small world. I alternate between Alexandria and Lorton VA as a gov contractor and my wife, a Brit (who immigrated from England in 2011) works for a couple who are PhD psychologiests at the State Dept.
Now, having said that, I have the graph paper right here on my desk at home along with a scale rule and a compass and will set about the business of completing that sketch plan later today. I also want to say to you and to the others that many of the things you are planning in your bench layout sound good for mine as well. I just hope we can make this a creation by community and i believe we can do that. I'm going to be open to any and all advice and try to incorporate as much of it into the final product as I can. Doc
I'll probably post my drafts for review and comment. I have a pretty good idea what I want to design in to my space but input can be helpful. I didn't fully formalize a track plan from my last 10x18' layout but here is one from the previous 14x25' layout.
Reply to Mike:
One of the good things i have gong for me is that my wife and I ride our bicycles on a local RailTrail (The Dawkins RailTrail named for the Dawkins Timber Company that raped the forests of Eastern Kentucky back in the early 1900's and hauled out the timber on rail cars) so we have become quite familiar with graduations and grades. We have two tunnels on the section of the trail that we ride on and one day...yes, one day...I want to do a second layout marking the journey from the Gun Creek Tunnel to the Tip Top Tunnel...one day i hope to do that. Those Cotswolds took my fancy right now though. Doc
Let me first say one of our children lives in Northern Va in Alexandria. She works at the State Department and her husband is in the Army Medical School at John's Hopkins. Now, having said that, I have the graph paper right here on my desk at home along with a scale rule and a compass and will set about the business of completing that sketch plan later today. I also want to say to you and to the others that many of the things you are planning in your bench layout sound good for mine as well. I just hope we can make this a creation by community and i believe we can do that. I'm going to be open to any and all advice and try to incorporate as much of it into the final product as I can. Doc
Looks like some nice country. I just watched part of his video on West England, and the Cotswolds.
As you read your track planning and layout building books, you'll understand how you can make your trackbed make slight elevation changes, to help accommodate the terrain you want your trains to run through, and still have good operations without steep grades.
Railroad construction engineers take the easiest route, like following rivers and valleys.
I will re-sketch my bench plan on graph paper for greater accuracy and will take a picture of it and upload thre pic to Imgur...that's about the only way i know to do it.
That is what I would recommend. You have to draw a plan to scale to have a realistic track plan. That generally requires you use graph paper with a scale rule and compass (old school) or some sort of software to allow you to do it on a computer.
I usually use 11x17 graph paper (you can buy it at Staples) and draw in the room walls/boundaries along with doors, support poles, etc. to scale so that you can fit the whole thing on one sheet (ideally) and to scale.
I've got one draft of a track plan with all the major features drawn in for my 15 x 33 1/2 foot main layout area. The first "option" allows me minimum 32" radius with an sort of e shaped track configuration but narrow pinch points (24") and narrow benchwork on one side. In the plan, the main and hidden storage yards run along the bottom wall, over and up along the left wall and up around to the right, then back down to the left above the yard and turns back over and around the the top. The bottom tale of the e on the right side goes up and to the right for a helix and turn back loop. (I'll post picktures when I get a chance)
I am planning on drawing up an "option 2" track plan to use the full width of the 15 foot wide space but will require a liftout bridge at the bottom of the basement stairs to enter the basement, but that will allow wider walkways and benchwork.
I used to have the ability to scan to PDF's at work but I may just take a photo and upload to imgur to display the track plan drafts.
The name of the guy on the video about the Cotswolds is "Rick Steve's" and the show is Rick Steve's Europe. This edition is Rick Steve's England: The Cotswolds...this is what i hope to replicate in my model. Doc
Reply to Cololrado Ray's post:
Wahoo! Another BB fan! I want to ask you what you think of this year's team but nobody else would want to listen to such important stuff so I'd better keep things "on track" so to speak (pun intended!). Doc
Ha! For some reason that struck me as funny...sort of like a mule looking at a new gate sort of funny. Doc
In answer to Steve's post:
Yes, later today, I will re-sketch my bench plan on graph paper for greater accuracy and will take a picture of it and upload thre pic to Imgur...that's about the only way i know to do it. I have to respond to some student emails and do some planning on a presentation I'm to make at the college this morning, but I should get to it before noon. Thanks, Doc
aprofitt0002 By the way, Steve ole pal...I saw your "Hook 'em Horns" logo and I've got only one thing to say being part of the Big Blue Nation, "Go Cats!" Doc
By the way, Steve ole pal...I saw your "Hook 'em Horns" logo and I've got only one thing to say being part of the Big Blue Nation, "Go Cats!" Doc
Ditto that. UK class of '73 here. Adolph Rupp was still coaching until my senior year.
Well this ought to be interesting.
OP's post on his benchwork
"Here are some images of my progress on the benchwork for my English countryside layout marking a trip from Stowe to Wells in the Cotswolds (see Rick Steves' Youtube video on the Cotswolds). I have only one piece of underlayment to add to complete the underlay for the layout. I will then add a 1" layer of extruded foam board and then begin construction of the topographical features including the villages of Stowe and Wells and, in the middle a 13th century castle. My layout is 30' around the exterior perimeter built against two walls with a walk around in the middle. Any and all suggestions, help, advice, comments, criticisms, etc are greatly appreciated. Regards, Dochttps://imgur.com/jYKAgSyhttps://imgur.com/8t9yQBZhttps://imgur.com/WD3GSZa "
Since he is modeling the "English countryside" books on English modeling may be more usefull than books on US model railroads. Here are some
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010KN811G/?coliid=I11OJQ8MM318WC&colid=14INWJ8I0OWDS&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C0K6NBS/?coliid=IMJFI8HOX1P6&colid=14INWJ8I0OWDS&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
https://www.amazon.com/Model-Railway-Design-Manual-Freezer/dp/1852605383/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1520926099&sr=1-1&keywords=model+railway+design#customerReviews
https://www.amazon.com/Railway-Modelling-Realistic-Iain-Rice/dp/1844253597/ref=sr_1_95?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1520926536&sr=1-95&keywords=model+railway+design
There are others available from Amazon
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Doc could you post an accurate drawing of what benchwork you have built?
Thanks Steven...if the Armstrong book helps me to better understand the criteria for a workable railroad, that is exactly what I need it to do and I look forward to reading it and learning! I went to HobbyTown a couple of weeks ago when we were in Lexington and bought 3 - 4 plan books...One of them is Model Railroaders "101 Track Plans for Model Railroaders ($17.99) and I don't remember the others right now, but there was not a single plan that seemed to fit my circumstances here with the amount of space and the max configuration I have in the basement so what I'm hoping to do - if you all want to give me some help on this - is to let you know what i would like to do and a basic sketch of the plan I have in my head and then open things up for a "plan by community." I can graph out on graph paper my sketch/plan and I guess then take a picture of it and then upload it to Imgur and list the download information and go from there. If there is a more economical way of doing that, i'm open to it.
As far as the British layouts, I am looking at several of those on Youtube as well as the prototype rail line serving the Cotswolds. Luckily, there are several full length videos of this rail line running through the English countryside. I watched Steve __________ (forgot his last name) video on the Cotswolds and have a pretty good idea of the topography which resembles the topo in central Kentucky to a great extenct so I do have a plan in my head. I also realize that, since there aren't an over-supply accessories (houses, churches, etc) of the sort of stone archetecture in the villages of the Cotswolds, I'm going to have to do a lot of kit bashing for sure which I don't mind since hopefully I've got a few good years left before becoming totally feeble and I'd just as soon spend it on this railroading than anything else I can think of so...
As far as the 4 methods of turning a train/loco, that's what I had come to understand so I'll have to fabricate one of the first 3 since I don't want the hands method. Now, brother, that's a long post but I don't have anything better to do than read the book I'm currently reading by a philosopher/theologian friend of mine, Jerry Walls, entitled "The Logic of Hell" ... well, that and eat supper! Doc
Doc, a few more pointers, nothing wrong with submitting a plan for our criticism but when we tell you the flaws don't get discouraged.
Now the Armstrong book does not have track plans in it it's to help you understand the criteria for a workable railroad, if you want track plans you have some options, 1 MR has a track plan database for subscribers of the magazine, you could also buy one of the MANY track plan books Kalmbach has put out, also there's "special issues" by MR/Kalmbach they are good too, I have at least two dozen of the books and special issues full of track plans, one thing you will be hard pressed to find a track plan that suits your desires AND fits your benchwork you have, also I don't think you'll find an OO scale British layout in the books I mentioned, that said you might find some inspiration in them but I hate to tell you you will 99 out of 100 not find a "stock" plan that fits perfectly.
Far as turning locos you have 4 choices, 1 turntable, 2 wye, 3 loop, 4 hands.
OK, I've got that book coming and it should be here this week. I'll take a look through it and see if there is any "stock" plan that seems custom made for the bench I've got (been working in the basement today and there's just no more room to expand my existing bench). If not, we may just make a plan. In the mean time, I'm going to do a lot of reading and see if I can become more familiar with railroading and model railroading in particular. Thanks for all the help. I sure appreciate it. Doc
NOthing wrong with creating a plan for your benchwork and asking for comments.
Turntables are not that terribly difficult, but like most activites, I am of the measure twice and cut once mentality when it comes to my layout, and I still foul up.
Bearman, let me ask you...what would be wrong with me creating my own track design to fit the existing benchwork and then submitting it to all of you on this forum for critique and suggestions. Would that be out of the question? I think I could provide a basic idea of what I want to do and I'm sure the people on this forum could give me the benefit of your wisdom. Let me know. Doc
There is kind of a 'zeroth law' here, concerning benchwork and scenery. On a real railroad the track would be graded into or on the 'scenery', but to approximate this on a model would involve far more time and cost, and probably not provide trackwork that reliably stays in the precise alignment needed for reasonably frustration-free railroading. So it is better to provide all the trackwork on bare risers with all the appropriate feeders, control lines, lift outs and duckunder provision, etc. and then "pretend" with the scenery to fit.
Note that you can approximate the terrain and some of the features, if you want, before starting with the track construction -- it's just easier to do a proper job if you can take the terrain out again to do the carpentry and such.
My HO turntable along with four locomotive storage tracks takes up an area of about 20" X 12" so a turntable leading into a yard is probably doable in athe 36" penninsula. However, and again it depends on the size of your locomotives and rolling stock, you still my end up having a tight radius coming out of the yard and onto the mainline down that 24" wide part of the benchwork.
Yes, I was just looking at some turn around possibilites and looked at a wye that seemed not to take up too much space and alson the switching yard (I believe that is the correct term) that does exactly what you are talking about. Actually, the switching yard seemed more in line with a 36" wide bench area. Doc
aprofitt0002One of the things I have to research is the different ways of turning trains/locomotives around other than loops and wyes. Doc
Just a locomotive, use a turntable, You could also use a run around track. It's a siding along side the main, that allows you to uncouple the locomotive, use the siding to run around the train, and couple back up to the other end.
I'm going to end up with a nice layout...I just have to be patient and keep things moving in the right direction. Doc
You will have to do some research on OO, I have absolutlely no idea about it. My layout is an around the walls folded dogbone walk-in U with a 55 +/- sq ft footprint of the layout itself. This does not include the area inside the U. In my opinion, a worthy layout is what you want to do and what is fun for you. For example, there is one member of my club who is perfectly happy with a 2 X 12 switching layout. You already have some idea of what you want, it is just a matter of doing some research to make sure your idea is doable, but yu also have to be prepared to make compromises.
One of the things I have to research is the different ways of turning trains/locomotives around other than loops and wyes. Doc
Doc, you have a 120 sq ft area to play with. Obviously the footprint of the final layout will not be that big once you factor in reach, aisles, etc. But you can put a lot of layout into that space. I tore up my second layout, without ever coming close to finishing it, for the reasons that South Penn mentioned. It was a mess. Tearing out benchwork is easy, tearing out track in an attempt to save and reuse it it is a real pain.
Doc, we were all there at one time or another, and some of us have not improved on our ignorance all that much. If I were to give you any parting advice, after you have some research under your belt, you may find that you will want to tear up the benchwork to accommodate the lay out plan that you settle on.
aprofitt0002 Men, after some thought I've decided I need to back up a bit and do some reading and study of railroading in general and model railroading in particular...terminology, etc. I have been so anxious to get something going that indeed, as was said earlier in this thread, I have gotten the cart before the horse. Many of the things spoken of in this thread just fell on not deaf but ignorant ears and that's no way to begin, so, I'm ordering more books. I have already subscribed to Model Railroader and Toy Trains magazines and I'm going to be a reader for a while...spring is coming soon and I've got 3 tractors that need restoring so I won't be short on something to do. In addition, maybe the reading and the study will go well and i will be able to work on model railroading while i read but i can see I don't need to be communicating when i don't even understand the language. I'll keep you posted as to my progress but otherwise will try to keep questions and eagerness in check. Blessings and thanks to all... Doc
Men, after some thought I've decided I need to back up a bit and do some reading and study of railroading in general and model railroading in particular...terminology, etc. I have been so anxious to get something going that indeed, as was said earlier in this thread, I have gotten the cart before the horse. Many of the things spoken of in this thread just fell on not deaf but ignorant ears and that's no way to begin, so, I'm ordering more books. I have already subscribed to Model Railroader and Toy Trains magazines and I'm going to be a reader for a while...spring is coming soon and I've got 3 tractors that need restoring so I won't be short on something to do. In addition, maybe the reading and the study will go well and i will be able to work on model railroading while i read but i can see I don't need to be communicating when i don't even understand the language. I'll keep you posted as to my progress but otherwise will try to keep questions and eagerness in check. Blessings and thanks to all... Doc
I mentioned on here before about the mistakes I made when I started my layout. I didn't know what I was doing and bit off more than I could chew. Then, instead of starting over and making it right, I kept modifying what I had and making things worse. Now, I have a section that needs scenery, but I can't reach the area, even with a ladder.
This is no excuse, but there was no internet or this great forum to ask questions. Take advantage of both.
Take your time, do your research, and make it right, even if you have to change some of your benchwork. Otherwise, today's mistakes will snowball into a mess.
Thanks, Mike...garden tractors. I'm currently restoring a 1967 Case 195 and have a JD 60 that is already restored. I've got a 1983 Case 210 that's waiting under a tarp. I recently sold a 1973 Case 448 and a 1998 JD 345. I'll be on here from time to time just to keep in touch with everyone and to ask the occasional question, but I'm so far less than ignorant when it comes to trains and modelling right now I'm sure it's laughable. Doc
aprofitt0002spring is coming soon and I've got 3 tractors that need restoring so I won't be short on something to do.
Cool. Full size, or the lawn/garden variety? My summer hobbies include old garden tractors. I have few pictures in the photo link, you just have deal with the Photobucket pop-ups, and dig through my library.
I'm not on here much in the summer, so I understand completely.
Come on back when your ready!
Doc, you can probably install a stub end yard in that northern penninsula and use the five finger turntable to turn your locomotives around, although it looks like you will have enough room for a non-five finger turntable. Run a loop around the west into the southern area and then run the main back up the 2 ft westside up to the yard. But, there is no way you can run a continuous loop with that 36 inch pennisula.
Doc, let me give you a few pointers, 1 let's say you have a 48" wide table now get 24" radius and lay it in a half circle you'll find the ends will hang over by half the track width, why? Because. Oh he's center field! The answer is the radius is if you multiply the radius by two you get the distance from track center to track center in a half circle.
2A all equipment has a "Minimum radius" which you usually want to go a little bigger than to be safe. So look at what you want to run and see its minimum radius. 2B radius also has a roll in turnouts the smaller the number (e.g./i.e. #4) the tighter the angle of the diverging route.
3 based on what you have you are going to have either a point to point or an all switching layout, something to add I love seeing trains just run BUT switching opportunities must be included otherwise you'll become very bored, very fast.
Now I don't want to bill myself as an expert I'm a "probie" (NCIS "probie" means probationary as in rookie or newbie) too albeit a very read up one, there are many here who have more experience than me and will add to this but may I suggest you add on to make a donut with a central operating pit (you could even have "aisles" on three sides to allow for more access) and that will accommodate your continuous running concept BUT first work out a track plan then do more construction, you'll find though that even donuts have restrictions especially with larger radii because the curves will eat your space. Good luck. And feel free to ask plenty of questions.
Steven and all...I just ordered Armstrong's book...should be here late this week. I'll have to recalibrate, read the book, and then get back with everyone on this. Doc
aprofitt0002 I seem not to be understanding the matter of curvature. It would seem that board that is 36" wide ought to accept a curve with an 18" radius.
The radius is determined from the mid-point between the rails, so the inner rail will be a little less than an 18 inch radius, and the outer rail will be slightly more. So an 18 inch radius curve, or 36 inch diameter, will slightly over hang your 36 inch wide table by 1/2 track width on each side.
I'm going to get Armstrong's book and recalibrate. I can't (or won't) tear down my bench but surely I can find an acceptable layout track design that will fit. I'll try to keep everyone posted to my progress in revising track plans. Doc
Big 'un, I've wavered back and forth on which track to use...just one of the unfortunate circumstances of never having any experience at all with either. Doc
Thanks Tex...I'm sure you are right...it's just that I'm a little wary of using flex in my first attempt at things. Doc
Well, NWP SWP, You make the same point made above by Bearman. I trust both yours and his judgement and know you must be correct...This would mean that I need to ditch the layout plan I have and go in another direction and Armstrong's book sounds like the place to go. I'll see if I can pick one up on Amazon tonight. Doc
OK, I seem not to be understanding the matter of curvature. It would seem that board that is 36" wide ought to accept a curve with an 18" radius. Admittedly, the rails would come up right next to the edge of the 36" bench but shouldn't it work??? Doc
Let me say a word or two in favor of building the benchwork first -- which I did -- but I was using the David Barrow "domino" system of repeated 2' x 4' dominos which after constructing several I could not only physically move around the layout room like big chess pieces (or like, well, domino tiles) to give me a very tactile sense of the possible, but I also used a large scale 1" = 1' drawing (using one inch graph paper) of my layout room and 2" x 4" cardstock domino tiles to try various arrangements of how the benchwork could fit and what could be done with it. By lucky coincidence I also had a plastic commercial track planning template which was to 1" = 1 foot (no longer made I think).
Barrow's idea is that the 2 foot width creates the discipline which in turn informs the track plan - and he favors linear track plans as do I.
That is obviously different than what our friend has done which is to construct a rather traditional type of train table. But certainly there are many track plans in books which can be freely adapted to nearly any existing "train table" arrangement.
Dave Nelson
Aprofitt002 you don't have to write a separate post to each of us, I usually highlight the name and then respond individually
Aprofitt002
rrinkwer
BigDaddy
I wouldn't go with track and preformed roadbed, though a lot of people do. It's more expensive, as is, it doesn't look realistic, and it's just not that hard to curve a piece of Atlas flex track and glue it down to a piece of cork roadbed, that you also curved, glued down and sanded the sharp edge off.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
My first two HO layouts were with sectional track. They worked out fine, but I lusted to be with the "big boys", to use flex track, KD couplers, wire in reverse loops, and the like.
No question about it, properly using flextrack requires some skill and certainly that gets better with experience. The sectional track route is a workable start, but if you end up truly "into" the hobby, there will be flextrack in your future.
As a fellow rookie I feel the need to tell you that you have greatly narrowed down the options you have by building the benchwork first, there is absolutely no way to double track in a 36 inch peninsula, you'll be hard pressed to do it as single track! Now if you're doing N scale yes but not HO or OO in your case. I suggest you read Armstrongs book on Track Planning for Realistic Operation it will give you more understanding of what fits. Good luck and have fun!
I am still of the opinion that you will not be able to run anything more than a 15" radius loop in that northern penninsula which is only 36 inches wide. At 15 inches, those long pasenger care may not be able to negotiate a loop that tight. I also dont think you can run a double track main through that 24 inch wide west side of the layout. But, I will defer to others on this forum who are more knowledgable than me.
Mike, I think I can get by with 18" radii for OO scale. I added a "wart" to the outside of my bench on the 36" end and I think I'll be OK with that. I'l have to build a bit of restraining structure to make sure if the train derails it won't fall to the floor. Doc
Thanks Mike for the encouraging word. I can do it if I've got good help like you and the others. Doc
Well, Mr. Mobilman, would you recommend using flex track since this is my first layout? I had assumed the snap together track would be more for a modelling virgin like me but let me know your thinking on this. Doc
Well, Henry, the purpose of the line will be passenger transport between the two towns and then on up and down the line to parts east and west. Doc
Mr. Slammin, I'm assuming a switching layout is an alternative to a closed loop layout but I'm not sure of much after that. Doc
Thanks, Randy. I used greenboard instead of plywood because we had 5 4 x 8 sheets of greenboard left over from re-modelling our bathrooms. I plan to overlay the greenboard with 1" extruded foam board. Doc
I plan to overlay the greenboard with 1' extruded foam board. Doc
OK, thanks to everyone for the help. To save time and coserve space, I'm going to try to reply to everybody in this one post, answering all questions. First off, I will be modelling an English countryside scene marking the way from Stowe-on-Cotswold to Wells. This is in a particularly beautiful part of southwestern England The Cotswolds. I will model the post WWII era in OO scale and will be modelling British trains from that era. I didn't know where to begin so I began by creating and utilizing the maximum space I could sequester in our basement, just making the bench as large as I could. I have been very fortunate to find a ready made layout plan and have copied and pasted that plan below. It is just backwards and has to be reversed but i've already taken a pencil and marked out a rough draft on the bench and it seems to fit well with a few modifications the major one being scaling down on the conglomeration of tracks on the long center portion of the layout. That is the narrowest area of my layout (2') and I will probably just fill it with countryside and 1 large estate/castle. The towns of Stowe and Wells will be on the opposite ends of the track in the loop areas. I'm really very happy with the way things have gone so far and now I think I need to:
1. order track (I don't know what kind to order...I'm thinking on this first layout I'll use the track with the pre-formed track bed and change it later to be more realistic but I don't know what brand to get and where to get it at the best price...maybe somebody could help with that.)
2. start to order major scenery structures to see how they are going to fit in the layout
3. purchase a DCCt ready train
Now, if I am missing nything or have anything out of order I hope some of you will give me some advice here because I'm just going blind. When I say I know nothing at all, i am serious...I know nothing at all so all advice/help is surely appreciated. Fellows, let me know what you think of this plan and what i need to do that I'm not thinking of. I really appreciate the help you are giving me. I'd be dead in the water without it. Doc
Home Iskar Gorge themed HO Scale Train Layout
This HO scale layout design represents parts of the Iskar Gorge near the town of Mezdra in the Western Balkans region of Bulgaria. It consists of a double main line that passes through a small train station, then crosses the Iskar river (like in the reality) several times, passes near a small village and then goes back.
Gallery 10 images
I suggest you look into some kind of single main line, folded dogbone. It looks like you can have a modest yard in the north part and several railserved industries in the south part of the benchwork, that bigger peninsula. However, on that north part,with a 36 inch width, it iwll be difficult to get a decent radius curve, assuming HO scale.
At this point you are somewhat committed, but echoing the others, usually you find or come up with a track plan that fits your available space FIRST, then build the benchwork needed to support it. You are now restricted to looking for a plan that fits your benchwork, which may or may not be the best plan that fits in the space you have.
Next would be to paint the top of the benchwork in some sort of earthy brown color, something representative of the area you are trying to model. That way, any place where the scenery is sparse, it will show the brown color rather than bare wood. Sometimes you cna find something suitable on the "mistake" rack at the store, this is much less expensive than having something made up.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I would suggest that you paint the table top now, before track ,way ezer then after track is down
Just thinking outloud :
Now you lay track and wire,get trains running, work the bugs out...befor scenery.
I myself ,do not use any kind of track plan, I had a picture in my mind of what I wanted, and just did it. If it [my mental image] didn't fit I changed it.
If your bench work is up, you may have ahard time finding a track plan you like that will fit, but not inpossible.
If your not sure where the track is going to be; pretty hard to landscape
Was it me; i would get a hand full of flex track and run a loop along the outside edge of bench. Stick a coulpe of turn outs in whereyou think they should be. Do NOT solder or spike track at this point. Wire track, and run trains.
You will learn as you go,and while running your train, you should get a feel for what you want.
When the track police show up, just explaine that your a newbe, and some old guy told you to do it, they will let you off with a warning
After looking at your bench work pictures again, Doc, if you want continous running, your going to have to add a 4'x4' piece to the other end of your bench, like what you have going around the basement column. You'll be able to at least fit a 22" + radius on it.
Hi, and a belated welcome to the forum!
Building a layout - in my experience - starts with a blending of a track plan with available space. Once those are meshed - best on a scale drawing w/o cheating - then its time to build the benchwork.
Ok, you didn't do that, and now have a benchwork space w/o a plan. Really, I think more than a few of us started out that way, so all is certainly not lost.
At this juncture, I would urge you to buy a couple of Kalmbach layout plan books. Usually there is a plethora of them on Ebay, online, or of course your local hobby shop.
You should be able to find what will suit you, at least the basics to which you can add or subtract general size, sidings, and so on.
Once you get the plan, and fall in love with it, its time to put down roadbed (I prefer cork), then lay the track, then add the wiring. Trust me on this, your time, energy, good work, and money is best spent on these phases. Take your time, and test, test, test.
When this is done, and you are happy about it, then its time for scenery, etc., etc.
ENJOY!
I think building benchwork before you have any track plan is putting the cart before the horse, if you are going to do the scenery next that is putting the horse's harness in front of the cart.
You need to answer some basic questions for yourself.
What are geographic area are you modeling? Cities, rural, small town, logging, mining, desert, mountains, waterfront?
How do you want to operate your railroad. Do you just like to watch it go round and round? Do you want to do a lot of switching, maybe some of both?
Closely related is what is your railroad purpose? The recent article on the Winston Salem is what I mean. There are specific industries to be served. The Beer Line is another, different set of industries.
What time frame are you modeling? While not important for landscape, it makes a difference in the industries. There aren't any more reefer ice stations or active coaling towers if you are modeling the current era.
This website has a whole index of track plans and you would do well to read John Armstrongs book Track Planning for Realistic Operation.
Once you come up with a plan, ask for opinions here before you buy track or nail anything down. As a newbie, you will cram too much into too little space, you'll design impossibly tight turnouts, yards and run arounds that are too short or a railroad that only works in one direction.
Atlas track planning books are mentioned just to be avoided. Atlas sells track so they have way too much packed into the space available.
Doc, you need to come up with a track plan that will give you the operations that you want, and will fit on your bench work.
I kinda figured you had a track plan in mind, since you started the bench work, but no matter, you can do it this way.
You can draw right on your bench top, and plan your track work. The odds of finding an established track plan that will fit on your bench top, are going to be slim at best, so draw your own! You have levels for straight edges, curves and radius can be done with a home made compass, made from a piece of wood, with a nail in one end, and a pencil on the other, and draw something you like, and what fits.
After you have a track plan you like, then plan on the scenery, and track grade, you know, up and down any hills, across creeks, etc.
That oughta keep you busy. As your planning all of this, and drawing it, different ideas will come to mind. One bit of creativity leads to the next.
You can do this.
Normally, you chose a track plan then build the benchwork to accomodate that plan. You could do it the other way, but you may have to design your own plan. A good place to start is with John Armstrong's "Track Planning for Realistic Operation". My benchwork came first. However, I was building a switching layout, so planning the track was fairly easy.