Their is painters caulk (not even pro painters use this) and silconised latex caulk (of course there are others), the later has all the good qualitys of the painters caulk but remains somewhat flexable when cured. The clear remains more flexable than the white also but I use clear for track to cork as if I get some alittle too thick, you never notice once dried.
railandsail Sheet Vinyl FlooringI was cleaning out/reorganizing one of my outdoor sheds yesterday, and I ran across some sample pieces of vinyl sheet flooring that had been installed in a house next to me. It has an really good feel to it, and comes in a variety of thicknesses, including a 1/16" ans 1/8" which I happen to have.It got me to thinking,...how about roadbed cut from strips of this vinyl??
Sheet Vinyl FlooringI was cleaning out/reorganizing one of my outdoor sheds yesterday, and I ran across some sample pieces of vinyl sheet flooring that had been installed in a house next to me. It has an really good feel to it, and comes in a variety of thicknesses, including a 1/16" ans 1/8" which I happen to have.It got me to thinking,...how about roadbed cut from strips of this vinyl??
As a construction professional, I would say it is likely a bad idea. In small strips it will curl and warp. It not friendly to nails, they stretch and distort it. The glue that is used to install it on floors is messy for small areas. It is not friendly to other adhesives. Ballast glue is not going to stick well.
What would be the point?
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat would be the point?
Probably "free" was the main point.
As far as adhesive caulk goes, Liquid Nails heavy duty construction adhesive (http://www.liquidnails.com/products/construction-adhesive-LN903) is what I have always used for cork and flextrack. It works, plain and simple. It comes off of track after some effort. I was able to salvage 100% of my turnouts from old layout. The cork really wasnt salvagable. Nearly 100% of the rail pieces are salvagable for handlaying. 95% of the flex track could be re-used, with some effort expended to remove the attached liquid nails and cork.
Tightbond 2 (http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=2ef3e95d-48d2-43bc-8e1b-217a38930fa2) is what I use for both homabed and wood ties. Im gluing 3 wood or wood based products together: plywood, homasote and ties. Why not use a wood glue that is specifically designed for the application?
I've built two layouts now using plain cheap latex caulk as the adhesive for both roadbed to subroadbed and track to roadbed. The first one I used the Polyseamseal brand, because it was like $1 a tube at the time and the DAP brand was like $1.25 (I blame my PA Dutch background). When I built the second one, the DAP brand was now cheaper than the Polyseamseal brand. Go figure. Neither one has any mention of silicone. Nothing ever came up on its own after the caulk set up. Even the areas I ballasted stayed in place while sraying the ballast down with alcohol and then diluted white glue. The last one, I roughly cut the track between sections as I was moving, and even that never knocked any track loose. I did on the first one make changes after I started laying track, and the already stuck down stuff came off just fine and was reused elsewhere - that one had WS foam roadbed and the roadbed didn't come off the extruded foam cleanly, but the track came off the foam roadbed just fine. And, at least for the track to roadbed part, I spread it THIN - before I put the track in place, it looks more or less like a shiny section of roadbed. The track tacks on immediately but can still be slid around for alignment, but once the caulk sets, it's not going anywhere without more force than it would ever see in normal operation. Can;t see why it would release the track upon curing, unless too much time elapsed between spreading the caulk and putting the track down. I didn't do anything to the track other than cutting it to length if needed, otherwise it was regular Atlas Code 83 flex track straight out of the box, I didn't clean it or anything.
I like to try different approaches, after two layouts with a foam base I'm going back to plywood for the next one, but after experimenting with some sections, I plan to use the Cascade Homasote roadbed instead of cork. Still going to caulk the track.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrebellBut once you ballast the track, alot of that reuse goes out the window.
.
Ooooh... I have never reused anything! Every layout gets all new track.
Of course my biggest loss was when I tore out the "Dream House" layout. That was a disaster because I actually tried to save most of the trackwork for a friend to use on his layout. No ballast was applied yet, but the track nails fit real tight in to the ties, and they ripped the ties loose from the rails as we tried to remove them.
Since then, I have only had smaller layouts, so loss was not much. Certainly not worth the effore to save the pieces.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Well obviously everyone should use whatever works for them.
I think I will stay with homasote roadbed (cascade) nailed down with the pneumatic brad nailer, and adheasive caulk for the track.
I have seen/experimented with foam and don't really like it.
I don't glue down turnouts.
I am building this layout in modules so it can be moved, tired of starting over.
BMMECNYC ATLANTIC CENTRAL What would be the point? Probably "free" was the main point. As far as adhesive caulk goes, Liquid Nails heavy duty construction adhesive (http://www.liquidnails.com/products/construction-adhesive-LN903) is what I have always used for cork and flextrack. It works, plain and simple. It comes off of track after some effort. I was able to salvage 100% of my turnouts from old layout. The cork really wasnt salvagable. Nearly 100% of the rail pieces are salvagable for handlaying. 95% of the flex track could be re-used, with some effort expended to remove the attached liquid nails and cork. Tightbond 2 (http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=2ef3e95d-48d2-43bc-8e1b-217a38930fa2) is what I use for both homabed and wood ties. Im gluing 3 wood or wood based products together: plywood, homasote and ties. Why not use a wood glue that is specifically designed for the application?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What would be the point?
Again, as a construction professional very familiar with all these products, Liquidnails seems like it would be thick and messy for this job, not to mention it is not clear if it gets where you don't want it?
But if it works for you......
Sure Titebond is what I have always used for wood ties, hand laid my first second layout in 1973 - Titebond, Campbell ties on Homasote.
Interesting side note, as a construction professional, we use very little Liquidnails as products in tubes for caulk guns go - yes, subfloors and drywall - other "glue" needs are better served with a list of other products/brands.
That's another tool I need to get, a small air nailer (or a bigger compressor, mine can only handle a small one, which actually should be plenty, it doesn;t take much to nail down the homasote).
Actually, I plan to use grey caulk this time, since my ballast color is grey. I doon't know why I didn;t think of that before. The clear caulk is fine, you see nothing once it's dry. Grey would blend in and any slight gap in the ballast would be less noticeable - of course I also plan to paint the roadbed grey once it's down, before track goes on.
railandsail doctorwayne Wayne Did you glue your track down with water soluble glue as well? If so, how did you keep the track in place once you started to ballast it??
doctorwayne
Did you glue your track down with water soluble glue as well?
If so, how did you keep the track in place once you started to ballast it??
ATLANTIC CENTRALAgain, as a construction professional very familiar with all these products, Liquidnails seems like it would be thick and messy for this job, not to mention it is not clear if it gets where you don't want it?
Ive found that it spreads prety easily with a 2" putty knife, and I use a laggers (pipe coverer is I guess the technical name for the trades person) knife to clean the left over liquid nails off the putty knife once it sets up.
I also prefer the liquid nails, as its a pretty universal adheasive and has about a 20min working time. It is flexible enough to withstand temperature changes (modules go from around 20 degrees to about 70 degrees in a couple of hours in the building at the Amherst show, then up to about 80). Last day it goes from 80 to about 20 in a few short minutes. Humidity goes from very dry to slightly less dry back to very dry. Foam has yet to detach from the modules. Other adhesives have detached from the foam when the plywood moved (yes it moves).
BMMECNYC ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again, as a construction professional very familiar with all these products, Liquidnails seems like it would be thick and messy for this job, not to mention it is not clear if it gets where you don't want it? Ive found that it spreads prety easily with a 2" putty knife, and I use a laggers (pipe coverer is I guess the technical name for the trades person) knife to clean the left over liquid nails off the putty knife once it sets up. I also prefer the liquid nails, as its a pretty universal adheasive and has about a 20min working time. It is flexible enough to withstand temperature changes (modules go from around 20 degrees to about 70 degrees in a couple of hours in the building at the Amherst show, then up to about 80). Last day it goes from 80 to about 20 in a few short minutes. Humidity goes from very dry to slightly less dry back to very dry. Foam has yet to detach from the modules. Other adhesives have detached from the foam when the plywood moved (yes it moves).
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again, as a construction professional very familiar with all these products, Liquidnails seems like it would be thick and messy for this job, not to mention it is not clear if it gets where you don't want it?
Well, as stated before, I don't use foam as a layout surface, I don't transport modules to shows, and my trains are in a finished, heated, cooled dedicated space.
Never had any issues with clear PolySeamSeal adhesive caulk......but would never use just plain old "caulk", caulk is not glue.....but that's just me.
I use those little plastic 2" desposable putty knives for spreading the PolySeamSeal. If I wipe it in time I use them several times, if not, no worries.
By the way, kudos to all of you who promote the hobby with modular layouts, shows, etc, but it is just not my thing - at all.
rrinker That's another tool I need to get, a small air nailer (or a bigger compressor, mine can only handle a small one, which actually should be plenty, it doesn;t take much to nail down the homasote). Actually, I plan to use grey caulk this time, since my ballast color is grey. I doon't know why I didn;t think of that before. The clear caulk is fine, you see nothing once it's dry. Grey would blend in and any slight gap in the ballast would be less noticeable - of course I also plan to paint the roadbed grey once it's down, before track goes on. --Randy
Randy, a pancake compressor and a brad nailer can be had for under $200 at Lowes or Home depot, well worth the investment - of course in my business I have several of each.....and a shop air compressor right below the train room.
This is one of the best ones in my view:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-18-Gauge-Pneumatic-Brad-Nailer-DWFP12233/205647692
And we frame whole houses with one of these:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Porter-Cable-6-Gal-150-PSI-Portable-Air-Compressor-C2002/203162815
BMMECNYCI also prefer the liquid nails, as its a pretty universal adheasive and has about a 20min working time. It is flexible enough to withstand temperature changes
I have had nothing but positive results with liquid nails.
For layout construction, the only adhesives I use are hot glue and liquid nails.
I also use a ton of decking screws!
rrinkerActually, I plan to use grey caulk this time, since my ballast color is grey.
I used grey last time and wished I'd used clear since anything opaque hides the track center line.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
The clear comes out white, it only dries clear (otherwise I guess how would you see what you are doing if using it for the normal purpose?). But I spread it so thing, you can easily see a pencil line through it. Doesn;t have to be any thicker and as I said, I've never had any problem with the track letting go because the caulk didn;t stick it well enough.
Sheldon - my compressor puts out enough to handle that nailer - it just can;t drive the bigger framing type air nailers. If I start doing moore of my own work on my cars again though I will need a larger compressor anyway to run decent size air tools. The one I have is great for low volume tools, inflating tires, and blowing dirt and dust off things. If I go that route though I will probably get a significantly larger compressor and run some air lines in my garage. I also have a nice airbrush compressor for airbrushing, which I have yet to actually hook up and use.
And another note on why clear, if you can't see the centerline, then you proubly put it on too thick, if yolu see it too well, then it could be too thin, the stuff really gides you to use the proper amount.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL railandsail Sheet Vinyl FlooringI was cleaning out/reorganizing one of my outdoor sheds yesterday, and I ran across some sample pieces of vinyl sheet flooring that had been installed in a house next to me. It has an really good feel to it, and comes in a variety of thicknesses, including a 1/16" ans 1/8" which I happen to have.It got me to thinking,...how about roadbed cut from strips of this vinyl?? 1) As a construction professional, I would say it is likely a bad idea. In small strips it will curl and warp. 2) It not friendly to nails, they stretch and distort it. The glue that is used to install it on floors is messy for small areas. It is not friendly to other adhesives. 3) Ballast glue is not going to stick well. 4) What would be the point? Sheldon
1) As a construction professional, I would say it is likely a bad idea. In small strips it will curl and warp.
2) It not friendly to nails, they stretch and distort it. The glue that is used to install it on floors is messy for small areas. It is not friendly to other adhesives.
3) Ballast glue is not going to stick well.
4) What would be the point?
I've got some sample pieces so I might do a little experimenting. I numbered your observations in your posting so I could ask a question of each:1) By curling and warping are you referring to its potential to try and curl some when cut into strips? And by warping are you saying it will distort in size?
I don't think it will distort in size to any appreciable extent (contract or expand with temp and humidity). At least it does not seem to do so on some of my floors. or I certainly would have noticed it over the past 3 years. It may well try to curl up a little when cut into relatively thin strips (I have not experiemented with this yet), but that should not be a real problem once you are gluing it down on the plywood subroadbed.2) I would hope not be using nails to attach the either the vinyl roadbed , nor the track, (certainly not with all the modern and variety of adhesives). I can't imagine there are not a variety of other adhesives that will glue this vinyl down. It's NOT as if its polyethylene plastic which is very difficult to bond to.
3) Ballast glue....I assume we are talking water soluble wood glues that are mostly used for this purpose?? I'm just not sure in this case as to whether they would bond resonable well to the vinyl roadbed, ...but what if they did not,...then the ballast might well bond together as a 'clump' unto itself and the track ties, and not be required to bond to the vinyl ??4) The point would be that vinyl flooring material could be had at a pretty reasonable price (particularly if off some installation jobsites,..many in FL), and it just might be a very durable roadbed in the long run. I experienced old cork.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
railandsail ATLANTIC CENTRAL railandsail Sheet Vinyl FlooringI was cleaning out/reorganizing one of my outdoor sheds yesterday, and I ran across some sample pieces of vinyl sheet flooring that had been installed in a house next to me. It has an really good feel to it, and comes in a variety of thicknesses, including a 1/16" ans 1/8" which I happen to have.It got me to thinking,...how about roadbed cut from strips of this vinyl?? 1) As a construction professional, I would say it is likely a bad idea. In small strips it will curl and warp. 2) It not friendly to nails, they stretch and distort it. The glue that is used to install it on floors is messy for small areas. It is not friendly to other adhesives. 3) Ballast glue is not going to stick well. 4) What would be the point? Sheldon I've got some sample pieces so I might do a little experimenting. I numbered your observations in your posting so I could ask a question of each:1) By curling and warping are you referring to its potential to try and curl some when cut into strips? And by warping are you saying it will distort in size? I don't think it will distort in size to any appreciable extent (contract or expand with temp and humidity). At least it does not seem to do so on some of my floors. or I certainly would have noticed it over the past 3 years. It may well try to curl up a little when cut into relatively thin strips (I have not experiemented with this yet), but that should not be a real problem once you are gluing it down on the plywood subroadbed.2) I would hope not be using nails to attach the either the vinyl roadbed , nor the track, (certainly not with all the modern and variety of adhesives). I can't imagine there are not a variety of other adhesives that will glue this vinyl down. It's NOT as if its polyethylene plastic which is very difficult to bond to. 3) Ballast glue....I assume we are talking water soluble wood glues that are mostly used for this purpose?? I'm just not sure in this case as to whether they would bond resonable well to the vinyl roadbed, ...but what if they did not,...then the ballast might well bond together as a 'clump' unto itself and the track ties, and not be required to bond to the vinyl ??4) The point would be that vinyl flooring material could be had at a pretty reasonable price (particularly if off some installation jobsites,..many in FL), and it just might be a very durable roadbed in the long run. I experienced old cork.
Well, have fun.
As a construction professional I would not have it my own home let alone try to use it for model roadbed.
Let us know how it works out.
That stuff took about 5 years to start curling on the edges in my mom's house, when used for the intended purpose, as flooring in her kitchen. First the ends of each section started curling up, like it wanted to roll back up on the roll it came from, then the edges going the other way started to curl up along seams. I can only imagine how curly it would get if you tried to slice off HO roadbed wide strips of it. YMMV, but while it's cheap, I suspect the problems after a couple of years will make it more expensive than other common options.
I wonder if there are a number of different grades (qualities) of this stuff.
Then I have to wonder about the glues that were used to put it down. I have it in the bathroom and the kitchen of a trailer home I purchased here in Florida 3 years ago, and I figure it was placed in there at least 3 years before I bought it,...so thats 6 years plus.I had occassion last year to roll up a whole section of it over in the corner of the kitchen to put in a heavier piece of plywood to support a bigger double door refrig. I glued it back down with only double-back adhesive tape in case something would go wrong with my repair. It has NOT even curled up on that repair. Perhaps it had laid flat long enough not to curl up as if it might have if installed from a fresh roll??
railandsail I wonder if there are a number of different grades (qualities) of this stuff. Then I have to wonder about the glues that were used to put it down. I have it in the bathroom and the kitchen of a trailer home I purchased here in Florida 3 years ago, and I figure it was placed in there at least 3 years before I bought it,...so thats 6 years plus.I had occassion last year to roll up a whole section of it over in the corner of the kitchen to put in a heavier piece of plywood to support a bigger double door refrig. I glued it back down with only double-back adhesive tape in case something would go wrong with my repair. It has NOT even curled up on that repair. Perhaps it had laid flat long enough not to curl up as if it might have if installed from a fresh roll??
Sure there are different qualities, still not my choice for anything.
How did you install a thicker subfloor and keep the floor level? Did you notch out the floor joists?
I should just be quiet now, my professional bias will start showing even more.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL railandsail I wonder if there are a number of different grades (qualities) of this stuff. Then I have to wonder about the glues that were used to put it down. I have it in the bathroom and the kitchen of a trailer home I purchased here in Florida 3 years ago, and I figure it was placed in there at least 3 years before I bought it,...so thats 6 years plus.I had occassion last year to roll up a whole section of it over in the corner of the kitchen to put in a heavier piece of plywood to support a bigger double door refrig. I glued it back down with only double-back adhesive tape in case something would go wrong with my repair. It has NOT even curled up on that repair. Perhaps it had laid flat long enough not to curl up as if it might have if installed from a fresh roll?? Sure there are different qualities, still not my choice for anything. How did you install a thicker subfloor and keep the floor level? Did you notch out the floor joists? I should just be quiet now, my professional bias will start showing even more..... Sheldon
I am trying to picture that in my mind.
Rich
Alton Junction
I replaced the 3/4 inch MDF board (that they used to build these damn trailers with) with 3/4 inch plywood that is now NO LONGER 3/4 inch thick. So I had to use some sort of plaster substance to blend the the two different heights together so I could relay down the vinyl flooring over that joint between the new plywood and the old MDF remaining under the majority of the floor.
The thing with vinyl is that it is produced, shipped, and stored "in the round." It's inevitable that it curls according to how it takes a "set,." In large sheets, as on your floor, the weight of the material combined with the glue usually overcomes this tendency. In narrow strips on the layout, not so much.
If you really, really want to test it, then pick a small length of track and put it down. But I'd stick to proven materials that are generally known to be good even as they age for the bulk of your layout.
Does cork sometimes get old and brittle? I've heard that, but really haven't noticed it here. I use all Midwest brand cork, so perhaps that's the difference. But once it's down and in place, it doesn't much matter if the cork loses it's flexibility over time, as it's not going anywhere or causing any problem when it does this. It's failsafe for most practical purposes.
Curling vinyl? That would be a problem that you probably couldn't ignore.
Vinyl might be cheap or even free (if you can grab some scraps), but cork is priced only modestly more. If things go pear-shaped with the vinyl, you'll be wishing you made the tiny investment in the difference, because the hours you spend fixing things will never be covered by any perceived savings.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman The thing with vinyl is that it is produced, shipped, and stored "in the round." It's inevitable that it curls according to how it takes a "set,." In large sheets, as on your floor, the weight of the material combined with the glue usually overcomes this tendency. In narrow strips on the layout, not so much.
Thought about that, and I have rolled my small sample piece up in the opposite direction so as to counter this tendency,...for testing purposes.
What bothers me more is the amount of 'plasticizers' that might have been used in the manufacturing process.
mlehman Vinyl might be cheap or even free (if you can grab some scraps), but cork is priced only modestly more. If things go pear-shaped with the vinyl, you'll be wishing you made the tiny investment in the difference, because the hours you spend fixing things will never be covered by any perceived savings.
railandsail mlehman The thing with vinyl is that it is produced, shipped, and stored "in the round." It's inevitable that it curls according to how it takes a "set,." In large sheets, as on your floor, the weight of the material combined with the glue usually overcomes this tendency. In narrow strips on the layout, not so much. Thought about that, and I have rolled my small sample piece up in the opposite direction so as to counter this tendency,...for testing purposes. What bothers me more is the amount of 'plasticizers' that might have been used in the manufacturing process. mlehman Vinyl might be cheap or even free (if you can grab some scraps), but cork is priced only modestly more. If things go pear-shaped with the vinyl, you'll be wishing you made the tiny investment in the difference, because the hours you spend fixing things will never be covered by any perceived savings. You might well be correct there. I've just always had a tendancy to look at alternatives before making a selection. I don't always follow the crowd mentality. You might have a look at an unusual sailing rig I've promoted,....an mast-aft vessel http://runningtideyachts.com/
Using sheet vinyl cut to strips as roadbed would not be better than more traditional methods, and probably worse, IMO.
Its vinyl. Its made with one shiny side so spills wipe up nicely. Having things not stick to it is kind of the point. It won't take white glue well.
You'll have to use a solvent based substance to get the styrene ties to stick to the vinyl roadbed. Seems like it would end up making a melty bond that would pretty much make the track un-reusable.
If using nails, you'll have to nail the track through it to the plywood.
- Douglas
I was going to pass on this thread. I have been reading it from the start and through its progression. I've been reading threads on this forum for six years but I've only been a member for one. I was going to pass posting because you longer-term members seem like you're having a heck of a pow wow here. Looks like you're having fun. I've been around the real world long enough to how things work. There's nothing worse than a new guy skating in on the veterans parade.
What the heck I'm going to chime in here anyway. I agree homasote is the best roadbed product to use if your hand laying track as its density holds spikes very well. Because it is more dence I'm sure it has a more sound-deadening quality than Cork.
Other than that I think the difference between the Cork and homasote is a half a horse a piece.
I researched these two roadbed's when trying to choose one. I believe it was back when I was too anal about everything to get anything done. The differences between the two besides the above-mentioned wasn't even enough to even squabble over.
I do know this though. If you use any kind of metal fastener to install either one of these products into the plywood. Vibration transfer reduce some of the sound deadening qualities, not a lot but some. If you use track nails to fasten your track through the road bed to the plywood the vibration transfer from the ties through the road bed to the plywood reduce sound-deadening qualities quite a bit more.
Now here's The Clincher. If you ballast the road bed using white glue, (white glue dries to a hard shell) This transfers all the vibration around the road bed to the plywood. You just lost almost all your sound-deadening qualities.......Edit I remember reading this is somewhat like building an amplifier.
Using matte medium in lieu of white glue will reduce this significantly but an even better solution is a barrier between the ballast edge and the plywood such as a bead of (let's say poly seam seal) to break the connection of vibration transfer from the ballast to the plywood.
I am by no means a know-it-all, or ever wish to be considered one I just researched this stuff and found it interesting.
Regards
Track fiddler
An interesting question presented on another subject thread.
[quote=waldo617211] A bit off topic, but has anyone used rubber underlay that goes under wall to wall carpet for roadbed?[/quote]
Interesting question, particularly when I asked a question recently about utilizing vinyl flooring material.
Here is some claims for the rubber,...
Our 5mm pre-cut rubber underlayment offers superior sound insulation at the best price. 5mm rubber underlayment has been shown to outperform all leading forms of underlayment including 12mm cork and 12mm foam. Rubber is great to use in areas that are at and above grade and is a great underlayment in areas where water may be present. This flooring underlayment is also mold and mildew resistant which is due to the fact that rubber does not hold water. This sound proofing underlayment can also be installed directly over concrete or wood and does not have to be adhered to the system via adhesive. You can also float the underlayment in a free floating assembly. Material - Comprised of 100% recycled material. Width - 4 feet wide per roll. Length - Our pre-cut rubber underlayment comes in 25’ lengths. Thickness - 5mm (Approx. 3/16”). Weight - 0.83lbs./sqft. Origin - Made in the USA. Highlights Our most popular underlay. IIC 60, STC 53. Mold and mildew resistant. Has been shown to absorb sound better than 12mm cork and 12mm foam. Made from over 80% recycled material. Do not use with linoleum, vinyl, or VCT (vinyl composition tile). Can be used with natural stone, hardwoods, laminate, engineered wood, LVT, real wood, and tiles. Can be adhered with a polyurethane adhesive, staples, double sided tape, or nails.
Origin - Made in the USA.
Highlights