When you just lay one item on another, there can be space between, even if it dosn't look like that. Once you bond them together in any way, this lessens the effect, once you add ballast you have almost eliminated this effect, thats why sound deadining has to happen elsewhere to effect the finial sound in any meaningful way.
railandsail Another Interesting Discussion on another forum HELP! Cork Roadbed *Increasing* Train Noise I've just begun laying the roadbed and trackwork for a small HO scale switching layout, and although not new to the hobby (mostly been weathering and detailing rolling stock) - this is my first layout in a long time. Here is the strange dillema I am facing: My layout is built atop 2" blue foam boards, and although sufficient at reducing train noise, I decided I wanted a trace of roadbed for the mainline. I purchased some N scale cork roadbed strips, and before permanently placing them onto the foam, I found that they went even further to reduce the "rolling sound" of a boxcar I'm using to test trackwork. So, I went ahead and glued the cork roadbed ontop of the foam (using white Elmer's glue), and ran some tests tonight. Much to my surprise, the sound is much louder. This left me wondering what had happened. My assumption is that the cork roadbed absorbed the white glue and had "hardened", and before I decided to rip up the cork and start over, I ran another test. Here is what I found: Track placed directly on blue foam (no roadbed): Low Noise Track placed on N scale cork ontop of foam (no glue): Extremely Low Noise Track placed on N scale cork glued onto foam: Extremely Loud Noise Can anyone with experience in this area tell me what went wrong? I thought about the cork absorbing the Elmer's glue, but then I realized it would absorb glue and harden anyway once I get around to ballasting track. Right? I'm left scratching my head, and was hoping you can guide me in the right direction. I'd like to strive to achieve the "whisper quiet" noise of cork roadbed laying ontop of the blue foam (without glue), but not sure if the problem will introduce itself again once I ballast the track. Here are the results of tonight's "roll test": I guess once I saw how quiet some freight cars rolled on the cork before I had glued it to the foam, I decided to use the cork and laid down a generous amount of Elmer's glue to secure it. What a surprise when I found out the extremely higher noise level. Any ideas or tips?
Another Interesting Discussion on another forum
I've just begun laying the roadbed and trackwork for a small HO scale switching layout, and although not new to the hobby (mostly been weathering and detailing rolling stock) - this is my first layout in a long time. Here is the strange dillema I am facing: My layout is built atop 2" blue foam boards, and although sufficient at reducing train noise, I decided I wanted a trace of roadbed for the mainline. I purchased some N scale cork roadbed strips, and before permanently placing them onto the foam, I found that they went even further to reduce the "rolling sound" of a boxcar I'm using to test trackwork. So, I went ahead and glued the cork roadbed ontop of the foam (using white Elmer's glue), and ran some tests tonight. Much to my surprise, the sound is much louder. This left me wondering what had happened. My assumption is that the cork roadbed absorbed the white glue and had "hardened", and before I decided to rip up the cork and start over, I ran another test. Here is what I found: Track placed directly on blue foam (no roadbed): Low Noise Track placed on N scale cork ontop of foam (no glue): Extremely Low Noise Track placed on N scale cork glued onto foam: Extremely Loud Noise Can anyone with experience in this area tell me what went wrong? I thought about the cork absorbing the Elmer's glue, but then I realized it would absorb glue and harden anyway once I get around to ballasting track. Right? I'm left scratching my head, and was hoping you can guide me in the right direction. I'd like to strive to achieve the "whisper quiet" noise of cork roadbed laying ontop of the blue foam (without glue), but not sure if the problem will introduce itself again once I ballast the track. Here are the results of tonight's "roll test": I guess once I saw how quiet some freight cars rolled on the cork before I had glued it to the foam, I decided to use the cork and laid down a generous amount of Elmer's glue to secure it. What a surprise when I found out the extremely higher noise level. Any ideas or tips?
I've just begun laying the roadbed and trackwork for a small HO scale switching layout, and although not new to the hobby (mostly been weathering and detailing rolling stock) - this is my first layout in a long time.
Here is the strange dillema I am facing:
My layout is built atop 2" blue foam boards, and although sufficient at reducing train noise, I decided I wanted a trace of roadbed for the mainline. I purchased some N scale cork roadbed strips, and before permanently placing them onto the foam, I found that they went even further to reduce the "rolling sound" of a boxcar I'm using to test trackwork. So, I went ahead and glued the cork roadbed ontop of the foam (using white Elmer's glue), and ran some tests tonight. Much to my surprise, the sound is much louder. This left me wondering what had happened. My assumption is that the cork roadbed absorbed the white glue and had "hardened", and before I decided to rip up the cork and start over, I ran another test. Here is what I found:
Track placed directly on blue foam (no roadbed): Low Noise
Track placed on N scale cork ontop of foam (no glue): Extremely Low Noise
Track placed on N scale cork glued onto foam: Extremely Loud Noise
Can anyone with experience in this area tell me what went wrong? I thought about the cork absorbing the Elmer's glue, but then I realized it would absorb glue and harden anyway once I get around to ballasting track. Right? I'm left scratching my head, and was hoping you can guide me in the right direction. I'd like to strive to achieve the "whisper quiet" noise of cork roadbed laying ontop of the blue foam (without glue), but not sure if the problem will introduce itself again once I ballast the track.
Here are the results of tonight's "roll test":
I guess once I saw how quiet some freight cars rolled on the cork before I had glued it to the foam, I decided to use the cork and laid down a generous amount of Elmer's glue to secure it. What a surprise when I found out the extremely higher noise level. Any ideas or tips?
Your example corroberates what others have said. When stuff is laid loosely and unattached, vibrations (sound) don't cascade well to the other surfaces. When they are tied together, the subroadbed acts like a drum. In the case of the middle example, hardened white glue transfers the vibes from the cork roadbed to the foam quite efficiently.
IMO, for sound deadening; roadbed made of cork, Homabed, WS Foam, Camper Tape, Rubber, Vinyl,etc. isn't really going to matter once everything is attached to the subroadbed via hardened adhesives (eventually from ballasting). The vibrations simply bypass the roadbed and transfer directly to the table top.
As Sheldon and Mike pointed out, more massive and rigid benchwork will help. IMO, I think having sheet homasote between the ballasted roadbed and the table top will help.
For table tops, in equal situations, 1 inch blue foam will likley be louder than 3/4 ply because its less massive and can be "drummed" easier by the trains, IMO.
- Douglas
I would try one more test. Track directly on foam board vs. track glued directly to foam board. This would indicate whether or not it is the glue that is the main factor. I believe it is but this test would help to verify that, or not. In my view it is the glueing of the roadbed, or track, that is increasing the sound level, not the cork itself. The same condition will exist when the ballast is glued to the roadbed. It increases the sound transfer when attached to the foam board.
That doesn't surprise me at all. Gluing down the ballast definitely seems to increase the noise level. I recall when I was first ready to ballast that the LHS guys told me to use matte medium, at $40 per gallon, because it was quieter than white glue. Whether that was true or not, I cannot say because I have never used white glue for ballasting.
One other thing. My double mainline has glued down ballast, and it makes more noise than when the ballast was not glued down. But, really, it isn't that noisy. Heck, those darn sound decoders are what really make noise. After awhile, I mute them all.
Rich
Alton Junction
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Rubber Roadbed?
Seems as though this idea had no interest?
***********************************************
[quote user="railandsail"]
An interesting question presented on another subject thread.
[quote=waldo617211] A bit off topic, but has anyone used rubber underlay that goes under wall to wall carpet for roadbed?[/quote]
Interesting question, particularly when I asked a question recently about utilizing vinyl flooring material.
Here is some claims for the rubber,...
Our 5mm pre-cut rubber underlayment offers superior sound insulation at the best price. 5mm rubber underlayment has been shown to outperform all leading forms of underlayment including 12mm cork and 12mm foam. Rubber is great to use in areas that are at and above grade and is a great underlayment in areas where water may be present. This flooring underlayment is also mold and mildew resistant which is due to the fact that rubber does not hold water. This sound proofing underlayment can also be installed directly over concrete or wood and does not have to be adhered to the system via adhesive. You can also float the underlayment in a free floating assembly. Material - Comprised of 100% recycled material. Width - 4 feet wide per roll. Length - Our pre-cut rubber underlayment comes in 25’ lengths. Thickness - 5mm (Approx. 3/16”). Weight - 0.83lbs./sqft. Origin - Made in the USA. Highlights Our most popular underlay. IIC 60, STC 53. Mold and mildew resistant. Has been shown to absorb sound better than 12mm cork and 12mm foam. Made from over 80% recycled material. Do not use with linoleum, vinyl, or VCT (vinyl composition tile). Can be used with natural stone, hardwoods, laminate, engineered wood, LVT, real wood, and tiles. Can be adhered with a polyurethane adhesive, staples, double sided tape, or nails.
Origin - Made in the USA.
Highlights
[/quote]
A couple of things I forgot to touch on in my earlier reply that are relevant. My track is all ballasted, with it being bonded down by matte medium.
All construction of the L girders, x-members, etc is done by screwing it together with drywall screws. This adds to the stiffness of the overall structure. Where the connection will be permanent, wood joints are glued with Titebond,
My foam scenery base is of two general sorts. The old way I did it was to glue the foam to the x-member, glue the layers together, and then slap Sculptamold over it all. The Sculptamold fills in between the foam and the plywood subroadbed, bonding it together.
More recently, most of the foam is bonded together into liftouts, still covered in Sculptamold, but they just are fitted tightly against the subroadbed and simply rest on the x-members. There is very little difference in noise levels between the two methods, but this is probably due to the thickness of foam that is typically built up when I represent mountain terrain.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Tried an experiment on a very small (like two foot) section of layout, put foam under the layout attached to the box ind filled with loose foam inbetween. Now this was just an experiment to prove a point, would never accually build one this way but it worked as well as it could without filling the void compleatly. If I had filled in the void compleatly I am sure the effect would have been even better.
DoughlessThe greater the mass (density) the less the vibration and noise. 3/4 ply is better than 1/2. Rigid benchwork helps because it turns the whole shmere into one big mass the little train has a harder time vibrating. But isolating the vibration closest to the source would seem to be the most effective way to reduce vibration cascading throughout the structure.
Yep, there's more than one way to do this. There's also no magic solution from whatever you put under your track. Hmasote is an improvement, but it alone won't solve a noise problem. The solution to that is mass.
The mention of the great 3/4 vs 1/2 plywood controversy is a major point. People say that 3/4 is overkill and it may be in pure structural terms. I like 3/4 because it's strong, but also because of its sounddeadening properties when used for subroadbed.
I use water-based contact cement to lay cork. Then I spike the track over that, with as I noted earlier, spikes that penetrate through the cork and leave the tip securely buried in the wood underneath. This amounts to a couple of spikes every 8" or so. This does not seem to result in any significant transmission of noise. I use pink foam for scenery, overlaid with Sculptamold. Typically, there's 4" thick or more of foam next to the tracks.
While this might be quieter with Homasote instead of cork, it's plenty quiet enough for me with cork. It's more costly than cutting corners on materrials, since it uses both 3/4 ply and foam instead of expecting one to do the job of both, but the results are reliable.
richhotrain Doughless The only experiments that matter are the ones that include hardened ballast. A lot of us never get to that stage in layout building. The reason that I tried different combinations is because I am giving some consideration to not gluing down the ballast on my next layout. Rich
Doughless The only experiments that matter are the ones that include hardened ballast. A lot of us never get to that stage in layout building.
The only experiments that matter are the ones that include hardened ballast. A lot of us never get to that stage in layout building.
The reason that I tried different combinations is because I am giving some consideration to not gluing down the ballast on my next layout.
If you're going to hand throw turnouts and need few holes through the benchwork, you could probably laminate 3 sheets of 3/4 MDF together and bolt it to 2x4 legs and create so much mass the little train couldn't ever vibrate.
It seems like achieving one goal compromises others, so there definitely is a balance to strike.
The greater the mass (density) the less the vibration and noise.
3/4 ply is better than 1/2. Rigid benchwork helps because it turns the whole shmere into one big mass the little train has a harder time vibrating. But isolating the vibration closest to the source would seem to be the most effective way to reduce vibration cascading throughout the structure.
For me, its about hearing the sounds you want and eliminating as much as possible the sounds you don't want.
So that becomes part of the cork vs homasote discussion for me, and how effectively each one can be used with quietness in mind.
rrebell Huh, wrong and right. Like what was said, sound transfers from one to the other, but this is not what you hear. Sound is amplified by the box we build to put the base on. Even notice how, no mater what why you build your roadbed that when you run a train it makes alot more noise when running untill you go over an open trestle. This is because the noise can disapate better on the trestle but bounces around and amplifies under your benchwork. The only cure for this is to put sound deadning stuff under the layout, which can be a pain or next to imposible. Sure you can try to sound dampen on top to disapate the sound waves, but as stated, once a scene is all done with scenery and stuff, most of those effets are lost. Don't take my word for it, get a sound meter and check it out. So yes you can sound deaden but I have not seen anyone put maximun effort into it and the best solution I have seen is no hard floor under the layout and curtains under it but this dose not eliminate it.
Huh, wrong and right. Like what was said, sound transfers from one to the other, but this is not what you hear. Sound is amplified by the box we build to put the base on. Even notice how, no mater what why you build your roadbed that when you run a train it makes alot more noise when running untill you go over an open trestle. This is because the noise can disapate better on the trestle but bounces around and amplifies under your benchwork. The only cure for this is to put sound deadning stuff under the layout, which can be a pain or next to imposible. Sure you can try to sound dampen on top to disapate the sound waves, but as stated, once a scene is all done with scenery and stuff, most of those effets are lost. Don't take my word for it, get a sound meter and check it out. So yes you can sound deaden but I have not seen anyone put maximun effort into it and the best solution I have seen is no hard floor under the layout and curtains under it but this dose not eliminate it.
So in my experiment, the sound was actually more or less than what I heard?
This is why I prefer my bathtub layout in which the water becomes the roadbed.
railandsail richhotrain While as the OP I have no objection to this, I am amused at how my simple question - - Roadbed: Cork or Homasote? - - has digressed twice now. First, it morphed into a discussion of gluing techniques regardless of the type of roadbed, and now it has morphed further into a discussion of sound deadening considerations, regardless of the type of roadbed. LOL I'm always amazed at this pursuit of quite operation, .....particularly when many will then go out and shop for the old 'clicky-clack' sound generators to produce the actual sound that many of us experienced on REAL trains.....ha...ha
richhotrain While as the OP I have no objection to this, I am amused at how my simple question - - Roadbed: Cork or Homasote? - - has digressed twice now. First, it morphed into a discussion of gluing techniques regardless of the type of roadbed, and now it has morphed further into a discussion of sound deadening considerations, regardless of the type of roadbed. LOL
While as the OP I have no objection to this, I am amused at how my simple question - - Roadbed: Cork or Homasote? - - has digressed twice now. First, it morphed into a discussion of gluing techniques regardless of the type of roadbed, and now it has morphed further into a discussion of sound deadening considerations, regardless of the type of roadbed. LOL
I'm always amazed at this pursuit of quite operation, .....particularly when many will then go out and shop for the old 'clicky-clack' sound generators to produce the actual sound that many of us experienced on REAL trains.....ha...ha
As explained above, not searching for quiet here, not running sound equiped locos either......
Sheldon
Correct, but the stronger the box, the less it becomes a speaker.
My other hobby is HiFi speakers, the solution to unwanted vibration is strength and weight.
1/2" plywood will be better than 1/4" plywood, 3/4" will be better than 1/2", etc.
MDF (not OSB or partical board), will be better than plywood, but is too brittle to nail into.
That said, let me join the debate on sound deadening and vibration in general. I did some experiments on my current layout. Here is what I found.
Flextrack on 1/2" plywood - - minimal sound.
Flextrack on foam roadbed on 1/2" plywood - - more sound.
Flextrack on foam roadbed on 1/2" plywood with ballast - - even more sound.
Flextrack on foam roadbed on 1/2" plywood with ballast glued in place with matte medium as the adhesive agent - - the most sound.
Not a very scientific experiment, but to the human ear, that is what I heard.
I don't use homasote to reduce noise, I use it as a firm but spike-able ballast profile. Noise is better reduced by buiding a more rigid benchwork that does not act as drum.
SeeYou190 Track fiddler Now here's The Clincher. If you ballast the road bed using white glue, (white glue dries to a hard shell) This transfers all the vibration around the road bed to the plywood. You just lost almost all your sound-deadening qualities. . You are absolutely correct. On one of the club layouts I built 20+ years ago there was a combination of Tru-Scale wooden roadbed and cork. When running trains the two sounded much different. . When we ballasted the track, with white glue, there was no longer a difference, and both were pretty loud. . I won't run without scenery, so I get the noise. . -Kevin .
Track fiddler Now here's The Clincher. If you ballast the road bed using white glue, (white glue dries to a hard shell) This transfers all the vibration around the road bed to the plywood. You just lost almost all your sound-deadening qualities.
.
You are absolutely correct. On one of the club layouts I built 20+ years ago there was a combination of Tru-Scale wooden roadbed and cork. When running trains the two sounded much different.
When we ballasted the track, with white glue, there was no longer a difference, and both were pretty loud.
I won't run without scenery, so I get the noise.
-Kevin
Yes. I agree with Track Fiddler also. Transferring the vibration from the track to the plywood is what makes the noise. Glued ballast does that (as do track nails/roadbed nails into the plywood), no matter what the materials used for roadbed.
Its why I want to put a layer of sheet homasote in between the plywood and the Cascade homabed product, but I'm concerned that even screwing the sheet homasote to the ply might transfer some unwanted vibration.
A bead of caulk along the edge of the roadbed separating the hardened ballast from the plywood might work.
I have also read, and will try this, that placing waxed paper along the edge of the roadbed will keep the hardened ballast off of the plywood surface. Waxed paper is used because you can remove it after the ballast has hardened since the white glue/water mixture wont stick to it. That paper thin gap is all that's needed to stop the vibration transfer.
Track fiddlerNow here's The Clincher. If you ballast the road bed using white glue, (white glue dries to a hard shell) This transfers all the vibration around the road bed to the plywood. You just lost almost all your sound-deadening qualities.
Living the dream.
I was going to pass on this thread. I have been reading it from the start and through its progression. I've been reading threads on this forum for six years but I've only been a member for one. I was going to pass posting because you longer-term members seem like you're having a heck of a pow wow here. Looks like you're having fun. I've been around the real world long enough to how things work. There's nothing worse than a new guy skating in on the veterans parade.
What the heck I'm going to chime in here anyway. I agree homasote is the best roadbed product to use if your hand laying track as its density holds spikes very well. Because it is more dence I'm sure it has a more sound-deadening quality than Cork.
Other than that I think the difference between the Cork and homasote is a half a horse a piece.
I researched these two roadbed's when trying to choose one. I believe it was back when I was too anal about everything to get anything done. The differences between the two besides the above-mentioned wasn't even enough to even squabble over.
I do know this though. If you use any kind of metal fastener to install either one of these products into the plywood. Vibration transfer reduce some of the sound deadening qualities, not a lot but some. If you use track nails to fasten your track through the road bed to the plywood the vibration transfer from the ties through the road bed to the plywood reduce sound-deadening qualities quite a bit more.
Now here's The Clincher. If you ballast the road bed using white glue, (white glue dries to a hard shell) This transfers all the vibration around the road bed to the plywood. You just lost almost all your sound-deadening qualities.......Edit I remember reading this is somewhat like building an amplifier.
Using matte medium in lieu of white glue will reduce this significantly but an even better solution is a barrier between the ballast edge and the plywood such as a bead of (let's say poly seam seal) to break the connection of vibration transfer from the ballast to the plywood.
I am by no means a know-it-all, or ever wish to be considered one I just researched this stuff and found it interesting.
Regards
Track fiddler
Using sheet vinyl cut to strips as roadbed would not be better than more traditional methods, and probably worse, IMO.
Its vinyl. Its made with one shiny side so spills wipe up nicely. Having things not stick to it is kind of the point. It won't take white glue well.
You'll have to use a solvent based substance to get the styrene ties to stick to the vinyl roadbed. Seems like it would end up making a melty bond that would pretty much make the track un-reusable.
If using nails, you'll have to nail the track through it to the plywood.
railandsail mlehman The thing with vinyl is that it is produced, shipped, and stored "in the round." It's inevitable that it curls according to how it takes a "set,." In large sheets, as on your floor, the weight of the material combined with the glue usually overcomes this tendency. In narrow strips on the layout, not so much. Thought about that, and I have rolled my small sample piece up in the opposite direction so as to counter this tendency,...for testing purposes. What bothers me more is the amount of 'plasticizers' that might have been used in the manufacturing process. mlehman Vinyl might be cheap or even free (if you can grab some scraps), but cork is priced only modestly more. If things go pear-shaped with the vinyl, you'll be wishing you made the tiny investment in the difference, because the hours you spend fixing things will never be covered by any perceived savings. You might well be correct there. I've just always had a tendancy to look at alternatives before making a selection. I don't always follow the crowd mentality. You might have a look at an unusual sailing rig I've promoted,....an mast-aft vessel http://runningtideyachts.com/
mlehman The thing with vinyl is that it is produced, shipped, and stored "in the round." It's inevitable that it curls according to how it takes a "set,." In large sheets, as on your floor, the weight of the material combined with the glue usually overcomes this tendency. In narrow strips on the layout, not so much.
The thing with vinyl is that it is produced, shipped, and stored "in the round." It's inevitable that it curls according to how it takes a "set,." In large sheets, as on your floor, the weight of the material combined with the glue usually overcomes this tendency. In narrow strips on the layout, not so much.
Thought about that, and I have rolled my small sample piece up in the opposite direction so as to counter this tendency,...for testing purposes.
What bothers me more is the amount of 'plasticizers' that might have been used in the manufacturing process.
mlehman Vinyl might be cheap or even free (if you can grab some scraps), but cork is priced only modestly more. If things go pear-shaped with the vinyl, you'll be wishing you made the tiny investment in the difference, because the hours you spend fixing things will never be covered by any perceived savings.
Vinyl might be cheap or even free (if you can grab some scraps), but cork is priced only modestly more. If things go pear-shaped with the vinyl, you'll be wishing you made the tiny investment in the difference, because the hours you spend fixing things will never be covered by any perceived savings.
If you really, really want to test it, then pick a small length of track and put it down. But I'd stick to proven materials that are generally known to be good even as they age for the bulk of your layout.
Does cork sometimes get old and brittle? I've heard that, but really haven't noticed it here. I use all Midwest brand cork, so perhaps that's the difference. But once it's down and in place, it doesn't much matter if the cork loses it's flexibility over time, as it's not going anywhere or causing any problem when it does this. It's failsafe for most practical purposes.
Curling vinyl? That would be a problem that you probably couldn't ignore.
I replaced the 3/4 inch MDF board (that they used to build these damn trailers with) with 3/4 inch plywood that is now NO LONGER 3/4 inch thick. So I had to use some sort of plaster substance to blend the the two different heights together so I could relay down the vinyl flooring over that joint between the new plywood and the old MDF remaining under the majority of the floor.