rrebellSorry but forgot what your construction ways were
The layout is 1 x 4 box frame construction around the walls and L girder on the peninsula. All benchwork joints in the area where the track is wobbly are glued and screwed. We used 3/4" plywood as a sub base. It is cookie cutter style in some places and solid under the yards, the service area and the industrial areas. On top of the plywood we screwed down 1/2" Homasote, and on top of the Homasote we are installing Midwest cork using carpenter's glue. The plywood is about 5 1/2" wide where the track is crooked (it is double track), and it is on risers every 16 inches (2% grade).
I don't have any problem with using caulk, but I would like to see the track pinned down first so we can make sure there are no kinks etc. If we use caulk, Henk and I will watch very carefully to see that the proper amount is used and that straight edges are used to lay the tangent track .
When we were laying cork on Tuesday we did have to ask a couple of people to use more glue. Since then we have discovered a couple of very small areas where the cork didn't have enough glue but most of it is good.
Henk suspects that there has been some movement somewhere that has caused the track to move. We had looked at the now wobbly track several times after it was installed about three weeks ago and neither of us noticed anything wrong. The wobble is now quite obvious.
We are going in on Saturday to discuss the issue. I'll let you know how we decide to proceed.
Thanks again for your help! The MR forums have played a major role in the construction of the layout.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Thanks for the advice on straightening the track. Henk and I are going in on Saturday morning to assess the situation further and see what needs to be done. We may change our track laying method. We went with nails only until the ballast is installed precisely so we could easily correct any errors if they occurred. Also, I should mention that the person who is leading the track laying team is no novice. He is using the same methods that he has used on his own layout without problems for more than 20 years. I have a couple of questions: How far apart do you install your track nails? Would caulk make the track less prone to movement? Thanks Dave
Thanks for the advice on straightening the track. Henk and I are going in on Saturday morning to assess the situation further and see what needs to be done. We may change our track laying method. We went with nails only until the ballast is installed precisely so we could easily correct any errors if they occurred.
Also, I should mention that the person who is leading the track laying team is no novice. He is using the same methods that he has used on his own layout without problems for more than 20 years.
I have a couple of questions:
How far apart do you install your track nails?
Would caulk make the track less prone to movement?
Thanks
Dave,
I have used every kind of track, and installed it various ways.
I have hand layed track, used TruScale wood roadbed and spiked my own rail, built turnouts and I have used every manner of commerical track.
And for me it always comes back to flex track glued to homasote roadbed with adheasive caulk.
Why? first because I believe track should be on a solid base, foam, and cork, do not work for me, anywhere in the equation.
Nails verses caulk - nails let the spring in the rail drive the actual position of the track, with the ties glued in place, the rails cannot "push" the track at all.
I let turnouts "float", no caulk, sometimes a nail or two near the middle.
I solder all my rail joints, except obviously the insulated ones. Back it the day we just cut gaps, and that worked with hand layed or wood roadbed. With plastic ties I am more comfortable with plastic rail joiners - ugly or not. Ballast and paint hides a lot of stuff.......
I am currently rebuilding my layout, I considered foam, I played with it a little, I just could not do it.
Disclaimer, I was never able to salvage track from a layout, except in the TruScale wood roadbed days, with flex track I never even considered it. I have salvaged and reused turnouts........and I have salvaged just the rail......I wonder if Atlas would sell me some tie strips?
So for me, gluing with caulk is no different than gluing down wood ties for hand layed track.
But, if my plan works out, the current effort will never get demolished in my lifetime, it is built in modules to allow both relocation and possible expansion or reconfiguration.
Sheldon
In my opinion caulk is the only way to go. If you used foam under the cork, you can just pin the track in place till the caulk dries, in fact you can pin it in a way that you can test trains and adjust. Sorry but forgot what your construction ways were and answering this on way out the door (wife is not moving very fast as ussual).
DO agree - make the straights straight, otherwise the wobbles WILL come back to haunt you. In a club setting - member only operating nights will go flawlessly despite the wobble, but at a public show, trains will derail in the wobbly sections all the time. Whatever is mist embarrasing/inconvenient - Murphy knows!
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL railandsail What about expansion/contraction issues of straight track with temp changes? Need to leave gaps when laying track during the winter, or summer time well haunt you. Never had that problem, and I solder all my rail joints......... Even my current layout, above my detached garage has been trouble free. The building is well insulated, and I do keep the heat at 50 even when I'm not up there. But I don't run the A/C in the summer unless I am up there. Other layouts in basements have been trouble free. It is not the track expanding that causes problems, it is benchwork shrinking/contracting. Better benchwork, stable layout room environment, no worries. Sheldon
railandsail What about expansion/contraction issues of straight track with temp changes? Need to leave gaps when laying track during the winter, or summer time well haunt you.
What about expansion/contraction issues of straight track with temp changes? Need to leave gaps when laying track during the winter, or summer time well haunt you.
Never had that problem, and I solder all my rail joints.........
Even my current layout, above my detached garage has been trouble free. The building is well insulated, and I do keep the heat at 50 even when I'm not up there. But I don't run the A/C in the summer unless I am up there.
Other layouts in basements have been trouble free.
It is not the track expanding that causes problems, it is benchwork shrinking/contracting. Better benchwork, stable layout room environment, no worries.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It is not the track expanding that causes problems, it is benchwork shrinking/contracting. Better benchwork, stable layout room environment, no worries. Sheldon
Interesting, I'll have to keep that in my for my planned train shed layout here in Florida
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Two words, steel (or aluminum) yardstick.
hon30critter Henk and I also had a close look at some of the track that has been laid. What was supposed to be straight track is anything but. However, we will test it before ripping it up. If nothing derails then we will live with a bit of wobbling. We will just pretend that the track has not been maintained as well as it should be.
Henk and I also had a close look at some of the track that has been laid. What was supposed to be straight track is anything but. However, we will test it before ripping it up. If nothing derails then we will live with a bit of wobbling. We will just pretend that the track has not been maintained as well as it should be.
But even worse than operational issues has been the aesthethics. A few years back, I bought a mini-cam and strapped it onto a flat car to take some videos of my layout. When I saw the crooked track from an engineer's perspective, I was horrified. I am determined to install laser straight track on the new layout. I would encourage you to correct that problem on your club layout.
Rich
Alton Junction
We got a bunch more cork laid on Tuesday night. We started the evening with a short seminar on how we wanted the cork to be laid and then we let several guys go to it. The President (Henk) and I then had to keep a close eye on how the work was being done because some of the guys weren't following the instructions carefully enough. Even with close observation, there are several areas where we suspect that there was not enough glue applied to hold the cork properly. We will have to go back and test the adhesion on all of the cork that was laid. However, if we find loose cork we will not correct the problem ourselves. We will pop it loose and have the original installers sand off the dried glue and re-install the cork properly.
What was it that I said about herding cats? Please don't read too much negativity into my comments. Most of the work has been done very well, and we are progressing much faster than we thought we would.
Vice President of the Barrie Allandale Railway Modellers.
Mike
Sorry, it has been a while since I posted any progress shots. Here are a few pictures to bring you up to date:
This shows the peninsula with sub roadbed and risers in place. The section closest to the camera will eventually be turned into a river valley with two bridges spanning the valley. There will be a third rather long bridge on the left raised track. It will start approximately where the yellow glue bottle is and continue to the mid point of that curve. That is the bridge I was asking about in another thread.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/268739.aspx
Another view of the peninsula:
This is the opposite view:
This is the last piece of mainline Homasote being screwed into place:
We have most of the main bus wires installed. We have a good start on track laying. We still have to play with the risers a bit to get the track superelevated. The Homasote has to be bevelled but we will do that after the cork is down so we can get the ditches lined up parallel to the track.
Cheers gang!!
hon30critter Hi rrebell: I missed your message when the auction was still on but thanks for taking the time to tell me about it. Actually, the listing would not have done us any good because the seller does not ship to Canada (why anyone would intentionally restrict their potential market by 10% is beyond me), but I will add the 130' turntable to my automatic searches. Maybe we will get lucky! Dave
Hi rrebell:
I missed your message when the auction was still on but thanks for taking the time to tell me about it. Actually, the listing would not have done us any good because the seller does not ship to Canada (why anyone would intentionally restrict their potential market by 10% is beyond me), but I will add the 130' turntable to my automatic searches. Maybe we will get lucky!
Turntable sold $163.50 + $17 shipping
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy$72 and 3hr and 18 min as I type
Thank You! I searched "Walthers" and should have searched "Cornerstone"
Ed
There were no issues witht he built-up ones. It was the kits that were and still are a pain to get working right.
Never mind that the one on out club layout (or the transfer table) has ever worked to my knowledge. But it gets transported around in a trailer all the time, before that in an old school bus. And everyone says they cut the pit for the transfer table a shade too narrow, even though you can move it from one end to the other and it doesn't feel like it jams up at all.
MOST people have no problems with the built up indexed turntable.
It's a 2009 model. Do I remember some issues with earlier Walthers Turntables? Anybody who wants to bid, should research that.Edit well I remembered wrong, Randy cleared it up in the post that follows this one.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Scale-Cornerstone-130-Modern-Turntable/202237557013?hash=item2f164c3915:g:x8UAAOSw7vVaj3r4
rrebellTurntable listing ending in 6 hr Walthers 130', may go for under $100
Is it possible to provide a link to that listing, Rrebell?
I did an ebay search for "Walthers Turntable" and came up with 66 listings.
Many of the HO 130 footers were in the $320 range.
Thanks, Ed
Turntable listing ending in 6 hr Walthers 130', may go for under $100, just in case you are interested but you never know where an auction will end up. Same type as I have only 130' instead of 90', RTR out of box but no DCC which I think of as a plus because of all the proublems with the ones with DCC and you could always add DCC to this one if you feel the need.
Thanks for the control panel suggestions Randy.
For neatness, I still like the way I did it 2 layouts ago. The panel diagram was printed in color on fairly heavy paper, then this was sandwiched between two pieces of plexiglas. The plexi kept the printed part from getting damaged. Most switches easily fit through 2 layers of plexi. I painted the back panel flat black - so you could just use sheets of styrene for the back panel and get the same results.
I used what I had at the time - Visio - to draw the track and mark locations for the toggles and LEDs. Didn't even think of using 3rd PlanIt to do that part. You could certainly make them look much more fancy than mine, like include the railroad or club name and logo in an appropriate font. At the time I was figuring on that layout just being temporary and eventually extending it around the entire basement, at which point it would get a proper fascia and all the goodies.
I printed two copies - one in black adn white just to locate the holes to drill for the switches and LEDs, and then the color version for the final panel. Drilling larger (I think my toggles needed 1/4" holes, the LEDs were slightly smaller) can be tough - a step bit is what I would use today, then I used a succession of bits from small to large, and taped over the hole locations. I made the entire panel without cracking the plexi - then the first screw I used to mount it to the layout caused a crack. Doh!
Productive night at the club on Tuesday. We got several pieces of the plywood cookie cutter sub roadbed cut. I think there are only three more to do for the mainline. We managed to get most of tonights cuts out of the plywood scraps leftover from cutting other pieces. We will still have to buy a couple more sheets of plywood and Homasote but that was the plan anyhow.
I have begun work on the control panel designs. 3rdPlanIt makes the task of drawing them up fairly easy. Bringing them into reality will probably not be quite so simple. I have seen several different methods of how to build control panels on the forums over the years so I will have to review them and choose one. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I have also started to figure out how to build the bridges. This is one of the pitfalls of CAD programs. You can draw whatever you want. That's easy. However, when it comes to building the bridges out of available components, that requires a bit more head scratching.
There are four major bridges in the plan. The longest will be about 80" and it has to go over four lower tracks which are not perpendicular to the bridge and are not all parallel. OH, and the bridge is curved at one end too! Figuring out what pre-made bridge sections can be used has been fun. The bridge supports have to fit between the lower tracks so the length of the bridge spans isn't very flexible. The finished result will have a variety of spans and piers and bents. So far it has worked out OK, but there will be some scratch building required in the curve to widen the bridges a bit. Lots more research to do!
The other thing that I am doing right now is modifying the turnouts to make them more reliable in the long run. I am following Allan Gartner's recommendations from 'Wiring for DCC'. I am installing jumpers from the point rails to the closure rails and from the closure rails to the stock rails. I am also installing brass 2-56 x 1/8" bolts (bolts were all I could find in the right length) in the frogs so we can solder on a feeder to control frog polarity. I only have about 50 turnouts to do - no big deal, right? I will leave a few unmodified because we want to run a workshop for the members to show them how to modify the turnouts and explain why we are doing the work.
That's all for now. Your comments and interest are very much appreciated.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNo interest in being herded or doing any herding........
Well, there have been a couple of times when I might agree!
I look at the bright side - I'm getting to practice my diplomacy!
hon30critter rrinker Like herding cats. Except these cats want to be herded! Dave
rrinker Like herding cats.
Except these cats want to be herded!
And this clearly explains why I am no longer in any clubs.
No interest in being herded or doing any herding........
rrinkerLike herding cats.
Like herding cats.
We ran into a little problem last Tuesday night when we wanted to work on the layout. Our illustrious leader Henk (Dutchman eh!) was unable to attend because he had a cold. Henk has been playing a crucial role in leading the construction of the layout. Without him there to tell us what to do we were a bit lost. A bit of work got done but not much.
Henk has been doing a lot of the work on the layout. In fact, he has been doing too much of the work. I sent him an email suggesting that in the future he should not do so much work on the layout himself and spend more time writing up instructions for what the rest of us can do next. We have talked before about how to keep the club members involved but we have lost focus on that goal. Fortunately he wasn't offended and he agreed to my suggestion.
We have agreed to do some simple things like put signs on the layout saying things like "Install cork to here" or "Install track to here" or "Do not install cork here". We will also write up more detailed instructions as needed.
Keeping everyone involved is proving to be a challenge!