As for actual, constructed scale model hump yards . . . I've seen one. Built by one of the best modelers I know. N scale, about 40 feet long. I have photos, but they're on another computer. I'll try posting them later.
The yard kinda worked. I think the biggest problem was inconsistent free rolling caused by over-weathering the cars, the wheels, and the rails.
The neat thing was his retarding feature. He used monofilament fishing line in small bundles of three or four short threads sticking up between the ties at 6-inch intervals or so. They looked like frog hairs or isolated tufts of grass or something. They worked by brushing the axles of cars that passed over.
Like I said, the hump yard worked, but a lot of fidgeting involved with it.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICKThe neat thing was his retarding feature. He used monofilament fishing line in small bundles of three or four short threads sticking up between the ties at 6-inch intervals or so. They looked like frog hairs or isolated tufts of grass or something. They worked by brushing the axles of cars that passed over.
Retarding all cars by the same amount doesn't really work realistically -- not only because different cars weigh different amounts and roll differently, but also because one needs different amounts of retardation as the various bowl tracks fill. This is one of the common failings of many model "hump yards" .
It will work for some number of cars in some number of tracks, but if cars can roll fast enough to pass through the bristles and roll near the end of the bowl tracks (first into that track), later cars into that same track will be going too fast and slam into cars already on that track.
This can be seen in a number of model “hump yard” videos.
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cuyama Retarding all cars by the same amount doesn't really work realistically -- not only because different cars weigh different amounts and roll differently, but also because one needs different amounts of retardation as the various bowl tracks fill. This is one of the common failings of many model "hump yards" . It will work for some number of cars in some number of tracks, but if cars can roll fast enough to pass through the bristles and roll near the end of the bowl tracks (first into that track), later cars into that same track will be going too fast and slam into cars already on that track. This can be seen in a number of model “hump yard” videos.
I agree. The whole process is fraught with problems, but you gotta admire someone who takes a good stab at it.
As mentioned earlier, here are photos of the yard I was talking about. Standing in about the middle, looking left and right. The model construction was about half finished when these photos were taken. The complete buildout was about 25 or so tracks.
rrinker John Armstrong (yeah that John Armstrong) built a box car with a big flywheel in in (O scale of course) so it would coast for quite a distance once kicked, but that's not exactly practical to do to every car in your fleet, and getting a train of them moving would be interesting to say the least. --Randy
John Armstrong (yeah that John Armstrong) built a box car with a big flywheel in in (O scale of course) so it would coast for quite a distance once kicked, but that's not exactly practical to do to every car in your fleet, and getting a train of them moving would be interesting to say the least.
--Randy
I agree..To much resistance in a normal train.
While that is a dated thought I'm sure there is a way to add a gimzo in order to kick cars.
When it comes to such thinking one must be open minded like any invention and the same goes for a gizmo that will give us a workable hump yard. It can be done but,how???? Recall not so long ago the nay saying "experts" said on board sound couldn't be done.
Air hump yards works quite well but,it demands a skilled hand to operate it and the air compressor could become noise pollution for the rest of the family..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The one I operated used working retarders like the prototype that are spring loaded. A fishing weight closed them as I was told when it was released, the only changes to the cars I was told about involved metal wheelsets many of the cars are old tyco and not many other upgrades other than body mounted kadees.
cascadenorthernrr Hi, I am considering adding a hump yard (nothing big like UP's North Platte Bailey Yard) to my model railroad (still in the planning stages) what would be the implications of building such a thing. I have read that some have used air jets in place of retarders I also read that a guy actually built a retarder system that worked like the prototype. Would powerful magnets work too or just do nothing? I look forward to your replies.
Hi, I am considering adding a hump yard (nothing big like UP's North Platte Bailey Yard) to my model railroad (still in the planning stages) what would be the implications of building such a thing. I have read that some have used air jets in place of retarders I also read that a guy actually built a retarder system that worked like the prototype. Would powerful magnets work too or just do nothing? I look forward to your replies.
Unless you are modeling a specific protoptype yard, I would skip the hump yard. It might seem like it might be fun but after the novelty wears off, you might find it a bit gimmicky. I have lots of fun sorting cars in my flat yard and it requires a lot less space and fancy engineering. Some things just don't scale down well. Gravity is one of them. I think you will find even if you can get the retarders to work reliably is the cars will roll much to fast to seem realistic. But as the saying goes, it's your railroad. If you are determined to go ahead with it, I wish you luck.
Larry Keeler did it back in the early 70's, with an early computer system as well. Mechanical retarders as well. It was the subject of a story in MR at the time. There was a huge amount of setup he did, calibrating every car and storing them in the computer, so that as a car came over the hump he keyed in the last 4 digits or so of the car number and it selected the destination track and applied the retarders based on the car's programmed characteristics and the number of cars already in the destination track.
Even that, though, could change based on temperature and humidity in the train room, and if an axle was slightly dirty, or whatever.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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rrinker Larry Keeler did it back in the early 70's, with an early computer system as well. Mechanical retarders as well. It was the subject of a story in MR at the time. There was a huge amount of setup he did, calibrating every car and storing them in the computer, so that as a car came over the hump he keyed in the last 4 digits or so of the car number and it selected the destination track and applied the retarders based on the car's programmed characteristics and the number of cars already in the destination track. Even that, though, could change based on temperature and humidity in the train room, and if an axle was slightly dirty, or whatever. --Randy
That sounds like a good system of course in the early 70s I was in the Army and MR magazines came far and few between.
At next month's train show I will nose through the old magazines to see if I can find that article simply because I've always been interested in such things..
January 1979 is the one you want. Page 92. For whatever reason, this article does not appear to be indexed by ANY of the model railroad mazaine indexes, the only hit you ever get for Larry Keeler is a 1984 article in RMC. WHich may also have information on the hump yard, but Russ Larson's interview in the Jan 79 MR definitely talks about it. I always remember that one because it's one of the first if not the first issue of MR I ever bought.
Sadly, in searchng for the article, I discovered Larry passed away last January.
So am I correct that the hump yard in the video is not prototypical?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
cascadenorthernrrSo am I correct that the hump yard in the video is not prototypical?
As was pointed out to you earlier in this thread, it's not a hump yard.
BRAKIESteven,That is not a hump but,a unloading dock for loading lake or sea going vessels and yes,that's exactly how they work once a hopper car been through the rotary dumper its shoved by a electric mule and the car rolls down grade through a spring switch rolls upgrade,stops and rolls downgrade through the switch and into the holding track...
Sorry I missed that.
So it would be like this, right?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
ROBERT PETRICK cuyama Retarding all cars by the same amount doesn't really work realistically -- not only because different cars weigh different amounts and roll differently, but also because one needs different amounts of retardation as the various bowl tracks fill. This is one of the common failings of many model "hump yards" . It will work for some number of cars in some number of tracks, but if cars can roll fast enough to pass through the bristles and roll near the end of the bowl tracks (first into that track), later cars into that same track will be going too fast and slam into cars already on that track. This can be seen in a number of model “hump yard” videos. I agree. The whole process is fraught with problems, but you gotta admire someone who takes a good stab at it. As mentioned earlier, here are photos of the yard I was talking about. Standing in about the middle, looking left and right. The model construction was about half finished when these photos were taken. The complete buildout was about 25 or so tracks.
That is a very wonderful mighty huge yard. But I am not seeing the hump. I suppose it is implied by the raised tracks in the foreground, but the cars on those tracks aren't arrayed as if they are on a hump.
As far as those bristle clumps go, if you have a bunch of them, you can raise and lower them with solenoids to vary the retardation. To do it well, you'll need a computer loaded with the rolling characteristics of each car. And you'll have to enter the car numbers. If there's a significant change in rolling quality caused by something like termperature changes, that can also be entered into the computer.
I watched cars roll over the hump at the old Potomac Yard when I was a kid. I do seem to recall some pretty loud ker-thumps out in the bowl tracks. Which might explain the "do not hump" signs placed on occasional freight cars.
I have no reason or need to build a hump yard. But I really don't see why having a nicely operating one would be anywhere near impossible--especially these days, when a computer can store all your data and also manipulate it.
Ed
To address the original question, Ed Ravenscroft had an operating hump yard with timed air jet retarders, which I saw in operation. Each car of a ten-car cut was pushed off individually. Once it cleared the lower retarder a photo cell triggered the hump engine to push off the next car. Faster rolling cars got the full benefit of both retarders. Medium rollers would only get blowback from the first retarder, while the slowpokes wouldn't ge any retarder action.
The yard was only four tracks wide, and the retarder grade was about six feet from hump to the far end of the second retarder. Total length to the farthest points of the double-ended yard was about eighteen feet. In a similar space only slightly wider I have a six track flat yard, a passenger station, engine facilities and an interchange yard/terminal for a separate shortline. Hump yards are massive space-eaters.
While I was there the hump yard automation got out of step with the real world. Not pretty. Having seen the air and electrical requirements, I shelved my own desire for a hump yard even though I could have adjusted the freight handling part of my master plan to justify it.
BRAKIE ROBERT PETRICK Cars are also humped in flat yards. If we're gonna model prototypical practices, someone needs to take a crack at that. That's called kicking cars. I would love to be able to kick cars while switching.Kicking is done to save time and unnecessary switch moves. It can be done but,how is the question.
ROBERT PETRICK Cars are also humped in flat yards. If we're gonna model prototypical practices, someone needs to take a crack at that.
That's called kicking cars. I would love to be able to kick cars while switching.Kicking is done to save time and unnecessary switch moves.
It can be done but,how is the question.
Larry, I'm considering the use of 'pusher' air jets on the ladder and the first car length of each yard track. I have a little foot pump meant for blowing up an air mattress, but haven't tried a test rig. I'm sure it will take a fine touch on the air to roll the car gently but firmly to a point clear of the fouling point of each turnout.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Hey Ed-
The yard is about 40 feet long and there is a long hump in the middle that doesn't show up in the photos. I was standing in the middle and looked left and right. That's the thing about indoor photos with no room to stand back and encompass the whole scene.
The hump tracks are only a part of the yard; about 4 tracks I think. The yard is modeled on Russell Yard near Ashland, KY. The guy who built the layout does not believe in compression, selective or otherwise, so you can bet it is accurate.
Here's a link to a photo I found online. I'm sure more can be found with a little effort. I'm typing this on my cellphone. I've had this phone about three years, and still haven't figured out how to cut-and-paste.
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/591589/
I was addressing my question about the video.
Yes Steven, your drawing of the BR&P Genesee Dock, is like the loading video that Larry posted. The NS facility is still operating, and the BR&P is long gone, nothing but bike trails, and a few concrete piers.
http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/maps/Genesee-Docks.html
Mike.
My You Tube
ROBERT PETRICKThe hump tracks are only a part of the yard; about 4 tracks I think. The yard is modeled on Russell Yard near Ashland, KY. The guy who built the layout does not believe in compression, selective or otherwise, so you can bet it is accurate
I worked out of Russell and the Fitzpatrick hump was on the West end and could be viewed from Greenup Ave then heading East you would see the Raceland car shops and on the East end the roundhouse plus the RRYMCA..The East end was flat switched.You could watch the action from Vernon St at the RR YMCA.
There was a engine house lead that passed under the East end of the yard.
The yard in the photo reminds me of the Huntington(W.Va) Yard.
Still a beautiful yard that I could spend a very happy day switching with my C&O RS-1..
BRAKIE I worked out of Russell and the Fitzpatrick hump was on the West end and could be viewed from Greenup Ave then heading East you would see the Raceland car shops and on the East end the roundhouse plus the RRYMCA..The East end was flat switched.You could watch the action from Vernon St at the RR YMCA. There was a engine house lead that passed under the East end of the yard. The yard in the photo reminds me of the Huntington(W.Va) Yard. Still a beautiful yard that I could spend a very happy day switching with my C&O RS-1..
Hey Larry-
It's been a good 5 or 6 years since I last saw this layout, and I have to shake out a lot of cobwebs to remember the details. Greenup and Raceland ring a bell. Also, I have to reconcile layout geography and real-world geography. The layout is viewed as if the viewer in the aisle is standing in the Ohio River. The time frame is very specific: a sunny day in September 1969. The overarching design criteria was for strict adherence to prototype, no exceptions. I don't know if the yard looks like that today or if the hump is still there. I seem to remember that the few hump tracks were specifically for coal cars.
That photo link I included was found by a quick-and-dirty internet search. It might be Huntington. I dunno. Huntington is modeled on the layout, but it is on the other side, and knowing the builder's almost fanatic insistence for accuracy, he would never confuse the two.
Robert,The Fitzpatrick hump was used for classifying coal cars and C&O used a 0-10-0 as the hump engine.Fitzpatrick was the first electronic hump yard in Ky. At one time Russell had two roundhouses.
I haven't been there in about 25 years but,Bing and Google maps shows a lot missing.I'm not even sure the hump is still there.
A late added PS. I found this 13 minute drone flyover of the Russell yard.Excuse me while I go and have a good cry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh7se5gqxpk
Just something I came across while looking in the May 1989 MRR, and Tankcarsrule's (Bobby P.) "Model of the Month" tank car for transporting Kymene, is an article about making cars move realistically after it leaves the hump, and makes it's way into the bowl.
The article is by Paul Mallery, and it's a system that was built for the Model RR Club of Union, NJ.
It uses a rail, that slides back and forth, and keeps the car moving at a realitistic speed.
It's worth the read, if you have the issue, or the archives sub., and your interested in yards, hump yards, and kicking on a flat yard.
Just thought I'd pass it along in this thread.
BRAKIE A late added PS. I found this 13 minute drone flyover of the Russell yard.Excuse me while I go and have a good cry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh7se5gqxpk
Hey Larry,
Sorry about the crying business, but Holy Cow, what a great video! Thanks for the link.
Robert,You're welcome..When I worked on the Chessie(C&O) that yard was full of cars,the car shops was working 24/7,there was a roundhouse,several yard crews,a 24/7 RR YMCA cafeteria and a train ln/out of the yard every 15-30 minutes.
Today its a shell of its former past.
This is my first posting to this forum, so be gentle.
I was going to ask this same question. I have a soft spot in my heart, or is it my head, for hump yards. My first job out of college was writing programming for an automated hump yard, for a Great Metropolitan Railroad (SP). We were automating the Colton Ca hump yard.
I too was thinking wouldn't it be neat to have a hump yard on my yet to be designed layout. Living in Arizona, I am "Basemently Challenged" and real estate inside my house is at a premium, so I get the ever popular 4 X 8 railroad. The first thoughts were for an oval for continuous running, and a hump yard in the middle. From what I have been reading, that may not be a great idea.
Jim
Congratulations Jim on your first post and welcome to the forum! I'm seriously considering dropping the hump idea but as a replacement I found a more simplistic solution. In the Track Plan Database there is a plan called the Schuylkill Iron Works its 4x21 and it appealed to me because the mainline is pretty long comparatively to other layouts of similiar size. So I was thinking that I could start with a 4x8 section then do another and then add two 2x4 sections at each end! And after I have run it I can begin stage two! I build a coal/ore dump like the BR&P Yard at Genesse Dock in another 4x20 section that buts up against the original layout and the mainline gets rerouted through the new section and I could even add a coal/ore mine at one end if space permits! I will post a scan of my purposed track plan (it's not perfect and it was drawn completely freehand) and any suggestions/revisions are welcome and needed.
I should clarify that stage two is the hump yard replacement!
JustJimI too was thinking wouldn't it be neat to have a hump yard on my yet to be designed layout. Living in Arizona, I am "Basemently Challenged" and real estate inside my house is at a premium, so I get the ever popular 4 X 8 railroad. The first thoughts were for an oval for continuous running, and a hump yard in the middle. From what I have been reading, that may not be a great idea.
Hump yards are large, large yards. If you have to switch hundreds of cars an op session they might be an answer. On a 4x8 there isn't enough room.
This doesn't address the whole issue of physics on how the cars roll and how far. Yes you can make one. Just realize it is a "graduate" level project.
IF you were going to build one on a "4x8", the A&S Gateway yard in East St. Louis would be the prototype.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5915386,-90.1402264,2660m/data=!3m1!1e3
A quick google search found this.