Hi, I am considering adding a hump yard (nothing big like UP's North Platte Bailey Yard) to my model railroad (still in the planning stages) what would be the implications of building such a thing. I have read that some have used air jets in place of retarders I also read that a guy actually built a retarder system that worked like the prototype. Would powerful magnets work too or just do nothing? I look forward to your replies.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
cascadenorthernrrHi, I am considering adding a hump yard (nothing big like UP's North Platte Bailey Yard) to my model railroad (still in the planning stages) what would be the implications of building such a thing.
This is discussed in Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong. https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/book/12148
cascadenorthernrrI have read that some have used air jets in place of retarders
I read about that somewhere, dont remember where, or how well it worked
cascadenorthernrrI also read that a guy actually built a retarder system that worked like the prototype.
Where?
cascadenorthernrrWould powerful magnets work too or just do nothing?
They would do something, but that something is nothing that you want to happen.
The club I belonged to had a hump yard with air jets. Turnouts were all air thrown, too, it was the old Del-Aire control system.
It's quite tricky to get it all to work right, because physics just doesn't scale. It was fun working it during an open house, it's where I usually put myself, but prior to the open house I had to run cuts of cars through and pick out ones with proper rolling characteristics, and then I would run a train through the hump process then use the hump bypass to go down into the bowl and collect all the same cars and haul them back out for another pass. Top of the hump had 3 Kadee magnets in a rown, running at slow speed you could reliably uncouple with a quick flip of the direction switch.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If you would take the time to build a simple 4' x 8' layout, you would get some idea of the space needed to operate like the prototype, or not, and the skills needed to operate a model railroad.
A lot of things that seem to make sense just musing about them, prove to be impractical in reality.
What the vast majority of us have done is to take a stab at building a layout so that we can understand and appreciate the complexities involved.
If you were to build a simple 4' x 8' layout, a lot of theoretical questions would be answered for you on the basis of experience. Why not get started?
In this specific instance, I believe that you would quickly find out how much space it requires to build even a small hump yard.
Rich
Alton Junction
Some HO scale hump yards in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBQudMMcjAI
Take Care!
Frank
There is a user video posted on the Lehigh and Keystone Valley, you might get a shot of the hump yard in it. That's not the one I operated, since I was a member the club moved to a new building. But they yard was HUGE, between the receiving yard, hump, and class tracks it was at least 30 feet long.
Great YouTube link Frank. Plenty of others included. It sure gives an idea of the space required.
Mike.
My You Tube
At 16 years old, you sure have a lot of ambition! First kitbashing slug units with no kit bashing experience and now a hump yard with retarders! Whats next, a space shuttle in your garage? just kidding.
There was a guy in California who I read an article about who was building a sizable hump yard in his rather large home attic layout - this guy, mind you, looked like he had a lot of experience under his belt. Many of us don't have space for a decent smallish home layout, let alone consider a working hump yard. Dream and dream big!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Here's a track plan in O:
http://www.rrtrack.com/html/nyc_selkirk.html
The plan is 238' long and 37' wide. If you divide by 2 (no HO is not exactly half of O), you get a 119' x 18.5'.
It can be done in less space than 119x18.
The yard hump will need to have sufficient grade to get the cars rolling, but not excessive. You will likely want to have your rolling stock all properly weighted per the NMRA standards. You will want free rolling metal wheelsets, so that all the cars will roll down the same grade and not stop in the middle. The cars need to be traveling fast enough that they reach the near the end of the classification yard tracks.
On each side of the hump is a yard. Those tracks should be of sufficient capacity to each hold the length of train that you typically run. This requires space. They yard ladder requires space. The hump requires a grade up to the top, this is usually shallower than the grade rolling down.
All of the cars should have the same type and quality of couplers (ex: Kadee and Protomax couplers work well together).
Nearly all smaller models claiming to be "hump yards" don't work like the real thing: they can't handle single cars; the operator just shoves cuts of cars over a too-steep hump, causing them to slam into cars already in the body tracks.
The few successful hump yards are relatively large. Air jets that allow cars to be retarded and accelerated seem to be the best approach.
As others have said, this is far from a beginner project. Talk is easy, but building is more rewarding. I hope you will try building a smaller layout to gain a realistic view of the hobby.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Try emailing these guys: http://www.dupagemuseum.org/model_engineers.htm
They have working retarders that "squeze" the flanges and I have operated myself very succesfully. This is quite old and really didn't require any special characteristics.
So the magnet idea would not work? Also would using DCC remote uncouplers and ball bearing wheels help?
cascadenorthernrr So the magnet idea would not work? Also would using DCC remote uncouplers and ball bearing wheels help?
The magnet idea seems like it would work, at least for humping single cars. A cut might be more of a problem. Unless you calibrated it. Which you're going to have to do with single cars, too, I think.
I don't see what you'd gain with DCC remote uncouplers. Except huge expense and installation problems. Of course, I'm assuming you're talking about installation in rolling stock. If you're talking about the ground-based uncouple, I again see absolutely no gain.
No. It would probably make things work, 'cause the cars would (presumably) roll even farther.
Ed
PS: Steven responded (below) to my comments before I modified/improved them.
I kinda figured the magnets would do nothing. But ball bearing wheelsets would not help? I would think that they would guarantee the freerolling of cars.
Well how are cars usually humped in cuts or solo?
One thing I have to consider is the field that would be generated by the magnets and the possible affects it would have on the decoders.
Once again you are wanting start by enrolling in a doctorate course before you have even made it out of elementary school.
AFTER you have built your 4x8 layout and AFTER you have a yard that is a double ended track plus 2 or 3 yard tracks and AFTER you have figured out what you need to make that operate, then talk about a hump yard. They are very large (even the model ones), very commplicated (even the model ones) and the model ones have issues operating (because a 125 ton car doesn't roll the same as a 4 oz. car).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
cascadenorthernrr Well how are cars usually humped in cuts or solo?
Both.
cascadenorthernrr One thing I have to consider is the field that would be generated by the magnets and the possible affects it would have on the decoders.
Are you planning on putting decoders in your cars? Because there's no reason for a locomotive to be over an active magnet.
No, but if a locomotive is in the vicinity of a powerful magnet it might pose a problem.
Ok here's an idea (just putting it out there) would a roller coaster style chain lift work? (of course in a down hill sense)
I watched the video from above and I also watched this one.
https://youtu.be/9bkI9r5I2d0?t=344
I'm guessing the prototype would never operated that way, right?
Kadee uncoupling magnets won't hurt a decoder, or the loco motor, or anything else. Lots of people have kadee magnets on their layout, I've even used very tiny up super powerful magnets to make a more precise uncoupling spot and had no issues with DCC locos running over that track. In a hump yard the loco wouldn;t even run over the crest, and putting 2 or 3 Kadee magnets in a row doesn;t make them stronger, it makes a logner area where uncoupling can occur. Kadee couplers are designed to not uncouple if there is tension on them, and with a hump and cars of varying size, the place where the car to be cut is far enough downhill to keep coasting yet not too far to put too much tension on the coupler is going to vary, and the length of one uncoupling magnet usually isn;t enough to account for that. We had 3 in a row in ours.
My response eariler was based on an assumption that you were trying to use magnets as a retarder. Yes you would use kadee magnets for uncoupling.
As someone stated earlier the weight of the cars does not scale down correctly to keep the momentum looking right. I think that if you experiment with making the cars much heavier you can reduce the grade needed. this would look a lot more realistic. Of course then you would need to beef up the coupler pockets and modify all your rolling stock to match.
watch some videos of the real thing vs. the models. real 5-10mph vs. models 50-60mph
cascadenorthernrr I watched the video from above and I also watched this one. https://youtu.be/9bkI9r5I2d0?t=344 I'm guessing the prototype would never operated that way, right?
Steven,That is not a hump but,a unloading dock for loading lake or sea going vessels and yes,that's exactly how they work once a hopper car been through the rotary dumper its shoved by a electric mule and the car rolls down grade through a spring switch rolls upgrade,stops and rolls downgrade through the switch and into the holding track...
This should give you a general idea how it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjSgkwDL8c
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
7j43k cascadenorthernrr Well how are cars usually humped in cuts or solo? Both. Ed
Cars are also humped in flat yards. If we're gonna model prototypical practices, someone needs to take a crack at that.
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICKCars are also humped in flat yards. If we're gonna model prototypical practices, someone needs to take a crack at that.
That's called kicking cars. I would love to be able to kick cars while switching.Kicking is done to save time and unnecessary switch moves.
It can be done but,how is the question.
John Armstrong (yeah that John Armstrong) built a box car with a big flywheel in in (O scale of course) so it would coast for quite a distance once kicked, but that's not exactly practical to do to every car in your fleet, and getting a train of them moving would be interesting to say the least.