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Which Comes First - - - Road Bed or Track?

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Posted by mlehman on Monday, November 30, 2015 1:07 AM

richhotrain
Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it?

Srsly?

How are you going to get anything right while it's floating in thin air? You're gonna need anti-gravity or some other technology.

Keep it simple, rough in your roadbed, then you can lay track in test patterns to your heart's delight. Or find one of the old Arbour Models Track Template sets. I have one, but you can make one by tracing your track components on cardboard and cutting them out. Still have to have something under it to support it.

Or do like I do and use the configured templates as the pattern to cut your subroadbed. That's about as close as you'll get to anti-gravity given current technology.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by jjdamnit on Sunday, November 29, 2015 3:14 PM

Hello All,

Here's what I did...

For the curves I built trammels for the different radii. I then scribed center lines on the layout base; Blue foam, with the appropriate radius. For the straight sections I simply used a straight edge to connect the center lines of the curves.

I then placed 2-inch "T" pins on the scribed center line at about 4-inch intervals. If you are using wood as a base you can use brads, rather than the "T" pins, to demarcate the center line.

Then I split the roadbed lengthwise.

I applied Silicone caulk to one half of the roadbed.

Then using the "T" pins as guides I placed the roadbed. I used more "T" pins to hold one side of the roadbed while I repeated the same process to place the other side.

At the end of the curves the split roadbed was staggered along the scribed center lines. I matched the straight sections to the stagger. At the next joint in the straight section I cut the roadbed flush with the next section.

I allowed the caulk to cure for 24-hours and removed the "T" pins. If I needed to adjust the roadbed the Silicone caulk easily released the roadbed from the base. I made any necessary adjustments and repeated the process.

To place the track I used #19 x 5/8-inch brads to hold the track in place. I then ballasted the track and removed the brads.

For super elevation on the curves I used 5-1/2-inch long wood stirrers, the kind that you use in your morning coffe, that are 3/64-inch thick and 5/32-inch wide. I bought a box of 1,000 through Amazon for about $10.00 including shipping. I placed these under the outer edge of the ties before ballasting.

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

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Posted by Motley on Sunday, November 29, 2015 2:25 PM

Rich,

For sure lay the roadbed first. Use cork, don't use foam roadbed.

If you need to re-adjust the trackwork, its easy to pull up the roadbed. I just slid a sarrated kitchen knife under the cork. It comes up pretty easily.

Michael


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Posted by selector on Sunday, November 29, 2015 1:55 PM

A scale planning diagramme, done on graph paper, is the first step.  It must have realistic frog angles on the diverging routes and properly scaled radii on all curves.  Tangent lengths must be very close to exact.

Then, I map it out on the floor.  First the benchwork edges, then the track elements.  I use 3/4" masking tape.  I use a trammel to ensure my curves are correct.  If they are, everything conforms to my scale diagramme when it is all taped out on the floor. 

From there I use a plumb-bob.  I build the layout frames and supports per the plan, including necessary bracing and blocking, and some joists to support risers for the sake of the sub-roadbed.  Depending on what that sub-roadbed is, cookie cutter or splines, I plumb to get the risers of an appropriate size in the correct position to support the sub-roadbed.  Once the sub-roadbed is in place, I can draw in the curve radii using the same trammel, and they should fit nicely along the splines or cookie cutter elements, even when spaced to prevent side-swiping on those same curves.  From there, lay the cork or foam or luan strips, and then add the rails.  Once you get to the flextrack, it should curve naturally and very closely conform to all the planning you did way up front.

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Sunday, November 29, 2015 1:35 PM

richhotrain
Would it make sense to use sheets of cork or foam for roadbed, laying track work on top of it, trimming it to size, and then securing the roadbed and track?

You can do that, but I think you'll waste a lot of material.  It might make sense if you've got a double or even triple track main line, but for single-track it's got to be both easier and cheaper to go with roadbed strips.

I used a sheet of foam for a 4-track run-through ladder behind my passenger station.  It worked well for that.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by dknelson on Sunday, November 29, 2015 1:09 PM

To add another variable into the stew, think not only about roadbed but about topography.  That is, what is your "ground zero" for relative height of main line, side tracks, yards, drainage ditches, culverts, and shallow water features.   A taller roadbed gives you more options for those things.  For really deep features such as ports, large rivers, gravel pits, and the like it is more practical to lower the benchwork or cut into the table top, but for routine everyday trackwork, it really pays to think ahead for how far below mainline track level you'll need for modeling.

Dave Nelson

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Posted by wp8thsub on Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:49 PM

richhotrain
Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it?

I can't see doing that myself.  Some examples from my layout:

Roadbed here is typical, sitting on risers above the benchwork, with much of it on a 1% grade.  There would be no way to get the track components arranged in any meaningful way prior to the roadbed being there.  Also, the roadbed at right is hardboard spline.  I like to move it around and adjust curves as I build (adjusting how I picture the scene in the process).  It would be nearly impossible to build splines into a shape matching pre-assembled track.

This #8 crossover was built from Central Valley kits.  I prefer to build these in place, meaning the roadbed has to be there first.  I like to have the turnouts in before adding track around them, so the rest of the track had to wait until I got the turnouts arranged like I wanted (in this case meaning the tie strip installed).

The way I like to install bridges often means handlaid rail on either side.  Roadbed first!

Rob Spangler

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Posted by RR_Mel on Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:30 PM

For what it's worth from the HO Weirdo.
 
When we finally moved into what looked like the home we would end up retiring in it was time for “My Layout”.  Over the years I had built several John Allan G&D layouts pretty much like you guys have described.
 
This time was for real.  I spent months refining my “Masterpiece”.  Early on into computers (1981) I bought a CAD program so by the time I was dreaming up my current layout (1989) I was quite proficient using a CAD program.  After about 10 months I had an acceptable drawing that included everything I have wanted over the past 30 years.  I laid out the center line of my entire layout on plywood then cut the plywood for my elevation transitions and built my 3½% grade / helix.  Everything went well with only minor problems. 
 
I glued one side of Midwest Cork against the center line for my main line.  I used crafters straight pins to hold the cork, easy to push in and remove.  I used Elmer’s white glue (6:1) to glue the cork to the plywood.
 
My layout is angle shaped 14’ x 10’, the double track double loop is 99’ 8” long.  After laying half the cork and letting it dry I removed the pins and finished the other half.  Thus making my layout roadbed before track.  The Atlas Flex Track went down easily following the cork centerline.
 
I did error in my design by putting a turnout at a grade transition, that took some serious rebuilding to get the correct angle to the dangle, using a separate sheet of plywood and extending the transition 12” fixed my error.
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by greatNorth on Sunday, November 29, 2015 11:57 AM

Rich, I am just getting back into the hobby and I am working in N scale. I did a lot of research before starting and what it led me to was Woodland Scenics foam roadbed. Very quiet and very easy to work and not expensive. Unlike cork you can lay the complete roadbed at once, not in halves, so you mark both sides of track not centreline. Doing curves and turnouts you do cut down centre for ease of 'bending '. I am working on a branch line layout so yards are often lower and less engineered compared to main roadbed, so I am using straight cork from a craft shop for yard and spur lines. 

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, November 29, 2015 11:02 AM

Since I am contemplating a new layout, I want to raise a thought that I have for discussion here.

Would it make sense to use sheets of cork or foam for roadbed, laying track work on top of it, trimming it to size, and then securing the roadbed and track?

Never having taken that approach, it makes sense to me as a practical solution.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by HObbyguy on Sunday, November 29, 2015 10:51 AM

Actually I do have one place where I will go back to testing and fitting before laying down the roadbed.  I will be breaking into existing straight track and fitting a couple of curves that are fed from a Walthers curved turnout.  The Xtrackcad template for curved turnouts isn't 100% accurate so some fudging will be needed.  Best way for that is to get the track right before commiting to the roadbed centerline.

Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger...  doing it my way.  Now working on phase 3.      - Walt

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Sunday, November 29, 2015 10:42 AM

If I'm not sure about how I want it to go, I put down everything with paper clips, un-bent into a U shape and then stuck through the roadbed and pink foam.  This will hold quite well, and will come up easily.  The U goes over the ties to hold the track in place.  When I'm happy, I pull out the paper clips, glue things down and then replace the paper clips to hold everything down while the glue dries.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by HObbyguy on Sunday, November 29, 2015 9:28 AM

richhotrain
Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it? But how do you easily accomplish that?

I think we all agree that the roadbed has to be in place before permanently laying the track down.  But I think the question here is to be able to fit and test track so that you know exactly where the roadbed cenerline needs to be.  When I first got started that's what I did, using bits of carpet tape to stick the track to the subroadbed.  Then moved the track aside, glued the roadbed down and went from there.  What I found- since I transferred the design to the subroadbed from Xtrackcad fitting and testing first really wasn't necessary.  Everything fit and worked perfectly.  So now I am just laying the roadbed down and going with it.

Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger...  doing it my way.  Now working on phase 3.      - Walt

For photos and more:  http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Sunday, November 29, 2015 9:00 AM

Well, you should mark where the centerline of the track should be, then you lay one half of the roadbed to the centerline and the second half to the first half? If you are using sectional track, it will never ever work out right. That is why we use flex track, it can follow whatever happend to the roadbed.

No the that sounds all well and proper, but that is NOT what the LION did, since the LION does not use roadbed. Him lays the tracks directly on the Celotex (well you would use Homasote these days) Is subway tunnel you know! Or is elevated on structure. What need is for road bed. OK in few places where needed I just put ballast there. Most roadbed is far too tall anyway, like for a Class-1 rairlroad running at warp speed. LION does not even glue ballast. Since is not on an elevated roadbed, it is not going to go anywhere. Gravity works, guys!

ROAR

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Posted by davidmurray on Sunday, November 29, 2015 8:52 AM

Very similar to Frank.  I laid out curves using 22" sectional track, and turnouts, marked the edges of the ties, drew and centre line, and laid cork.  Old school, I used nails.

I never ballast until running trains for months, to make sure the trackwork is good, and the tracj plan works.

Dave

David Murray from Oshawa, Ontario Canada
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Posted by peahrens on Sunday, November 29, 2015 8:25 AM

I had a XTrackCAD track plan and drew it on the layout using a 6" pencilled grid.  I located turnouts on the plywood and checked how things would fit and flow.  I was using flextrack.  In some cases I tweaked how things were spaced, especially some curved turnout crossovers.  And I then marked along the outer edge of the track ties.  I also fudged some easements into the curves and optimized curves that were to have varying radius.  I did not connect all track though.  I then marked by eye the middle of the track pattern and applied the split cork roadbed along the center marks.  Then added track.   

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by Medina1128 on Sunday, November 29, 2015 8:24 AM

riogrande5761

I prefer to keep it simple and lay subroadbed, roadbed and track, usually wood, cork and then track (old school) or wood, homasote then track.

 

I second what Rio posted. Affix your roadbed to the base (subroadbed) surface, whether it be wood or foam. I use latex acrylic caulk to attach the roadbed to the subroadbed, then spread it with a 1" putty knife. I use a 1" wallpaper roller to get the roadbed pressed into the caulk. Then, I use a staple gun to hold it in place while the caulk sets up; I give it 24 hours before removing the staples. I use a Black and Decker Mouse sander to make sure the surface is completely flat. Since I use cork for my roadbed, I also knock down the sharp edge of the top out surface of the cork. 

To attach the track, lay a THIN bead of caulk down, spreading it so that the caulk is very thin. If you press your track down and the caulk oozes up between the ties, you have too much. It should be thin enough that you can barely see the cork underneath. I hold the track in place with push pins for another 24 hours to let it set up. Then, you're ready for ballasting. 

If you try to put ballast down, then wiggle the track down into it, you're in for a headache of almost migraine proportions. If you search for "ballasting" in the "search the community" window, (it can be found on the right hand side of the forum page) you'll find plenty of posts about how to do it, if you have any questions about it.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Sunday, November 29, 2015 7:39 AM

I prefer to keep it simple and lay subroadbed, roadbed and track, usually wood, cork and then track (old school) or wood, homasote then track.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Which Comes First - - - Road Bed or Track?
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, November 29, 2015 5:50 AM

This question has probably been posted before, but I don't care.  I'm gonna ask it again.

The question is simple.  Which comes first?  Road bed or track?

The answer seems obvious.....the road bed comes first.  Or does it?

Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it?

But how do you easily accomplish that?

Maybe the answer is not so simple.

I am interested in what others do.

Rich 

Alton Junction

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