I might be the oddball of the bunch but for most of the HO track that I laid for my layout, I ended going the other way. I laid the track first and then slipped the roadbed underneath. When much of my layout was built, computer design didn't exist. As a result, the track was laid (and relaid in some cases if I changed my mind or if a problem with the track occurred) then roadbed halves were slipped underneath and carefully nailed into place and then the track was nailed on top of the roadbed. For turnouts, the outer sections were laid, the turnout was removed and the inner section were cut into place. I didn't use track nails just standard brads. After awhile, the nail heads get to the point where they can't be seen. (Of course, that does cause problems if track has to be moved. And don't ask me how I know that )
Keep in mind - I did NOT transfer the track plan to the base on my previous layout. On that one before it where I did - the effort was NOT worth it.
If you are using a roadbed that approximates the track, like cork or homabed type stuff, or WS foam, you can get a perfectly good idea of how the track is going to be by laying the roadbed only. You can also just hold the track in place with tape or pushpins - the roadbed as well, for that matter, to test things. The ends of the tracks do not have to connect to plan out and visualize a layout. Just tape the ends down, the middle if necessary to hold a curve, step back and see what you think. Once you have it how you want it, just mark along side in key spots, you do not need a continuous centerline. Any of the common materials are springy enough that if you line up a few spots along the length, the in between spots will naturally form smooth arcs, even if the track you may be using (ME) doesn't do this. I've never had a problem getting smooth curves - but I've always used Atlas track in the past, which automatically forms a natural curve. I had more trouble back in the day using sectional track, because none of it ever fits perfectly - if you put each joint tight together, you end up with a huge gap where it should be a closed circle. Once you have the marks made to line the track and roadbed up against, start caulking.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
It might be comforting to consider that most RR construction involved at least three surveys. First came a general line location, with the goal of locating the proposed track so that it stays within the min R and grade needed to be viable, plus act as the guide for land acquisition (assuming it was not already available via gov't land grant, etc.)
As the line was built, this general survey would be revised to reflect adjustments as construction proceeded. Bridge abutments might need to be in a different place or a deviation due to excess rock or poor soil conditions are examples here. While not a total survey, there could stoll be a lot of adjuestments.
Finally, after the line was contructed, investors or the government might require a survey of "as built" or "current" location to either confirm exact ROW, etc or to reflect the accumulation of small changes in track due to maintenance, damage, or relocation for any number of reasons.
My approach is to do basically the same thing, but in truncated fashion. We're a little more constrained for space than the 1:1, but a preliminary location makes sure the oveall plan will work. Often, that's as far as I go with planning on paper (or in a computer file). I do the others by eye for the most part now, but that's thanks to years of experience. Still, I wouldn't worry too much about getting things exact with what's on a plan. There will always be minor adjustments and that's nothing to be too worried about so long you confirm as the basic plan fits and you review things like clearances, grades, track center spacing, etc as you go. YMMV
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
rrinker Having built 2 layouts not using caulk as the only adhesive for roadbed and track... I do draw my layout design using 3rd Plan It, and the first of my recent layouts I actually did waste the paper and print the whole thing out (skipped the blank sheets for the donut hole in the middle, 3rd Plan It allows this) and transferred the centerlines to the foam using a pounce wheel and then a Sharpie over the marks to make them visible. And I swore, never again. In testing the curves, I found that even with a 30" radius I had to extend the center spacing on the curves so all equipment would clear - luckily I tested this before laying the track by holding sections of flex track in place using push pins. --Randy
Having built 2 layouts not using caulk as the only adhesive for roadbed and track...
I do draw my layout design using 3rd Plan It, and the first of my recent layouts I actually did waste the paper and print the whole thing out (skipped the blank sheets for the donut hole in the middle, 3rd Plan It allows this) and transferred the centerlines to the foam using a pounce wheel and then a Sharpie over the marks to make them visible. And I swore, never again. In testing the curves, I found that even with a 30" radius I had to extend the center spacing on the curves so all equipment would clear - luckily I tested this before laying the track by holding sections of flex track in place using push pins.
I think that is the issue for me, and perhaps the issue Rich is anticipating. I'm not confident that I can precisely transfer my well-engineered plans into an exact centerline. There will always be some fidgeting if I do it.
It reminds me of those TV shows where I see ornamental metal work being drawn and loaded into on a computer robot, then the pattern being immediately and exactly cut out with a water jet or laser.
Maybe someday I can design a precise trackplan on my computer, then load it into a flying droan and have it draw the exact centerlines all over the benchwork...
Actually, some of the forum members probably aren't that far away from being able to do that right now...
- Douglas
I do draw my layout design using 3rd Plan It, and the first of my recent layouts I actually did waste the paper and print the whole thing out (skipped the blank sheets for the donut hole in the middle, 3rd Plan It allows this) and transferred the centerlines to the foam using a pounce wheel and then a Sharpie over the marks to make them visible. And I swore, never again. In testing the curves, I found that even with a 30" radius I had to extend the center spacing on the curves so all equipment would clear - luckily I tested this before laying the track by holding sections of flex track in place using push pins. After attaching track and roadbed I did remove a passing siding and spur, and the turnouts were perfectly reusable - I use cheap latex caulk, not silicon. Good thing, too, with the price of turnouts.
Second time around, I printed out some scaled shots of each section of the layout, but not full size. I just used the CAD as a guide to prove that the track I wanted to put in an area would actually fit without cheating and kinking joints or making curves sharper than my minimum radius. I pulled locations for turnouts and placed them, and then filled in the track in between.
As for working - caulk sets enough to hold track in place in just a few minutes, so I would put down one half of the cork, then spread some caulk for the second half (offseting the ends to the joints didn;t end up directly across from one another) and as soon as that was in place I spread more caulk and kept on going with the next piece. I use pushpins to hold it down until the next day. I can keep on working until I get tired, run out of pushpins, or run up against a complex area where I have to do a lot of cutting and fitting. Certainly don;t have to stop after 1 piece. Same thing with laying track. I do solder two piece of flex together for curves so the entire curve can be formed with no rail joiners in the middle of the curve, otherwise it's one piece at a time. After 1 piece, I prepare rail joiners and the next piece of flex, if a whole piece will fit, I just spread the caulk then slide the next piece of track in place, then line it up. If a whole piece doesn;t fit, I lay it on top and mark the cut position. I keep a small stock of rail joiners that are loose from multiple uses to test fit track, once I have the track cut to length and the ends cleaned up (even with Xuron rail nippers, the ends need to be filed a bit) then I fit fresh joiners, spread some caulk, and fit the section. After making sure everything is lined up, a few pushpins keep me from accidently knocking it out of whack. And then on to the next piece - no waiting, really. That was the best thing I found about the caulk method, I could just keep on plugging away and get a lot of roadbed and/or track down in a given work session.
Stix,
Yes, Ribbonrail is a very helpful product if you want smooth curves, etc. I'm mostly NG and have a fair eye when things need to be straight or smooth, but mostly just nudging things around to get it looking good works.
The FastTrack folks now have a similar product, SweepSticks.
So I've used neither, but both looks to be rather helpful if you want to keep things to mainline standards or simply neat.
Which comes first depends on what track and roadbed you're using. If you're using sectional track pieces, laying them out first and then marking their location and adding roadbed makes sense. However, that won't work as well with flextrack.
There is a product called "Ribbonrail" which I think is still in the Walthers catalogue and other places, that is Upsom board pre-cut into straight and curved sections. You can lay that out, and then when you're happy with it, fasten it down and lay flextrack on top of it.
You can also use Kato Unitrack, or a similar product from Atlas, that includes roadbed and simulated ballast. With those "click tracks" you can lay things out, run trains, and test everything easily. Bachmann makes a similar track product, but it's only track and roadbed. Once the tracks in place, you add your own ballast.
carl425Hi Mike, You left out one detail that I'm curious about in your otherwise excellent post. Do you shave off the molded in spike heads of the RTR track and drill a hole for your spikes? What about the tie plate? Does it get shaved off as well?
Carl,
A few pieces of trackwork do have spike holes from them from the factory, like Shinohara HOn3 turnouts, and I do utilize those when available.
Most often, I just lap the spike head in next to the plastic nubs that pass for spikes in flex track and am done. By the time the track is painted, ballasted, and weathered, you'd have a very hard time picking out which is plastic and which is metal especially when using the skinny Walthers/Shinohara spikes.
This makes the process quick. I typically put in a pair of spikes every 6" or so on most flex track. Where needed, I increase the spiking to suit. Mostly, they're driven on the outside of the rail. I use them on the inside only when needed to pull track in that direction or to hold track down at transtions.
One case is when I cut the plastic webs between the ties that lie under the rails at the diverging ends of HOn3 turnouts. Spiking forces the turnout to conform to the curve by allowing the ties to slide around to those legs of the turnout, which is very helpful as there aren't any RTR curved turnouts in HOn3. I've also used this on standard gauge turnouts to fit special circumstances that don't really need a curved turnout, but will result in more smoothly flowing track.
So you're really not putting down that many spikes in most cases, certainly not enough to create a visually irritating effect. They just disappear.
I second your assembling trackwork off the layout. I lay the track in place, mark feeder locations on both the track and roadbed, remove the track, drill holes for the feeders, then solder the feeders at the workbench. The feeders are then fed through the holes and this actually locates the turnout pretty well before the first spike is driven. I use a dozen or so spikes on a turnout most commonly.
wp8thsubI wouldn't say working one piece of track at a time is slow for me, as I can often lay track as fast as I can glue it.
Thanks for the follow-up, Rob.
Perhaps I'm waiting too long for the caulk to dry. As soon as I press the ties into the caulk, it feels like it doesn't want to move. I just assume I can't disturb it until it's no longer tacky.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
carl425But also as Rob mentions, it's slow going laying one piece of track then finding something else to do while the caulk cures. Your spike technique could help me accelerate the process.
I hope you don't mind me chiming back in as you mentioned both me and Mike...
This is some of the track I installed with a combination of spikes and caulk. I can't see the spikes in this photo but there are a few, especially in the wood ties around the turnout.
After weathering and ballast the spikes disappear from view, unless you really want to look for them.
Rob Spangler
mlehmanLet me introduce you to a very handy device the prototype uses called...the spike.
Hi Mike,
You left out one detail that I'm curious about in your otherwise excellent post. Do you shave off the molded in spike heads of the RTR track and drill a hole for your spikes? What about the tie plate? Does it get shaved off as well?
I've been laying track on Homosote roadbed and using caulk to secure it pretty much as Rob describes except that I do solder together some sub-assemblies together in advance like ladders and crossovers. I actually do these at the bench first and then use them to mark the center lines for the roadbed.
But also as Rob mentions, it's slow going laying one piece of track then finding something else to do while the caulk cures. Your spike technique could help me accelerate the process.
Doughless I think the focus of the OP's question is how to go about laying down the roadbed once, and only once, before securing it.
I think the focus of the OP's question is how to go about laying down the roadbed once, and only once, before securing it.
Alton Junction
I think the focus of the OP's question is how to go about laying down the roadbed once, and only once, before securing it. We can always take up both track and roadbed and move it....relatively easy depending upon what way we secure it...so how easy it is to correct a mistake or reevaluate the track plan once we see it in the flesh isn't really the point of the question, IMO.
I think Rich was alluding to the idea of skipping a lot of the precision computer design process or paper design process for developing a centerline before laying the roadbed or track, since seeing things in the flesh...making adjustments for maybe better viewing angles, often begets changes to the predetermined precise centerline anyway.
It also depends on the type of layout we are building. A layout with lots of verticle scenery usually requires a spline-type of subroadbed, at least subroadbed located in a predetermined spot which needs to be fairly precise (a lot harder to move subroadbed), with more time taken to precisely design where the track will eventually go.
Whereas a Chicago-style layout of flat contour and minimal grades can get away with a lack of precise design. Rich could just doodle the basic shape of the layout on scratch paper, then shuffle the track all over the table top shelves to see how it looks best, rather than shuffling it virtually on a computer screen first and worrying about how precise everything is before he starts the tracklaying process.
I think some semblance of a plan is very important, knowing where a turnback loop might fit, or how many linear feet a yard ladder will consume so that he is not wasting his time chasing a trackplan that will never work, but I think circumstances vary the needed precision of a centerline before he starts fiddling with tracklaying.
Computer design the layout, transfer to benchwork using paper overlay punched along track centerline, roadbed (Homabed) nailed with brads to Homasote base, flextrack (Code 83 Walters/Shinohara) spiked with Walters/Shinohara spikes to Homabed. Easy to do accurately if careful and easy to alter if and as required.
Dante
Roadbed, then track.
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
richhotrain The caulk method makes more sense to me, but it raises the question of how to secure it.....and when. Rich
The caulk method makes more sense to me, but it raises the question of how to secure it.....and when.
Rich
I use a caulk gun with General Electric, Clear Silicone I or II; the difference is that the II has a quicker curing time.
I lay a bed down the center of one half of the split roadbed.
With a 1-inch plastic putty knife I spread the caulk in a thin even layer. If there is any excess caulk on the beveled side of the roadbed I wipe it away with a lint free cloth (my wife's old surgical scrubs work well for this). If there is a little excess caulk on the center side of the roadbed I leave it.
Using the "T" pins as guides (as I described in my previous post) I carefully start at one end of the center line and press the roadbed into place. Then using more "T" pins I secure the roadbed to the base (Blue foam in my case).
Let cure for 24-hours and place the track by what ever method you prefer...
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
wp8thsubFor a time I combined caulk with ME small spikes, later finding the spikes didn't help except where I needed to align rail across wood ties or re-spike through holes drilled in plastic ties (as with correcting gauge on Walthers code 83 curved turnouts).
A bit more in view of my spike alternative...
I have some of the ME small spikes (30-106, 1/4")and they are just too small for most uses in HO with cork roadbed. I've found that they also don't work well into Homasote, just not long enough in HO IMO. They are also rather fragile for my klutzy and shaky old hands.
I do use a few of them in places likes sidings that might somehow need to be laid directly on luaun or other wood roadbed. They're long enough there to get a good bite in the wood.
richhotrainBut, next time around, I do not want to use nails. The caulk method makes more sense to me, but it raises the question of how to secure it.....and when.
I was very skeptical of using caulk to lay track, but once I started I was quickly sold. I like how everything stays put, and stresses from expansion and contraction find fewer weak spots like they can when the track is installed with spikes. Outside of code 100 track in staging, I never use track nails, as I don't like how they look, and don't care for trying to remove them after ballasting. I also like how solid everything is vs. using smaller spikes like Micro Engineering. For a time I combined caulk with ME small spikes, later finding the spikes didn't help except where I needed to align rail across wood ties or re-spike through holes drilled in plastic ties (as with correcting gauge on Walthers code 83 curved turnouts).
I use DAP Alex Plus clear sealant. It's not intended as an adhesive, but has more than enough strength to secure track. It also comes off pretty readily if you need to pry track up and re-use it.
I work in small areas, say only one piece of flex track at a time. I get the track aligned as I want it, holding it with push pins until the caulk sets. Connecting large assemblies beforehand is a formula for trouble, as it can be difficult to get everything installed and lined up correctly before the thin layer of caulk sets too much. After I have several pieces of track down in a given location, I clean it up, add feeders, solder rail joints, and test run some equipment.
richhotrainMy problem is the lack of experience with track laying techniques. When I started out 12 years ago, I used Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed and I nailed down the track. So, it was pretty easy to pull up track and road bed and re-lay it. But, next time around, I do not want to use nails. The caulk method makes more sense to me, but it raises the question of how to secure it.....and when.
Let me introduce you to a very handy device the prototype uses called...the spike.
I'm always surprised that so many people use track nails and adhesives as their primary means of fastening track.I don't use nails (see next paragraph), but sometimes use adhesives when laying track where there's foam underneath (mainly industrial spurs) or for hidden track where it's easier to run adhesive along the center line of the ties than to spike (I use E-6000 for that.)
I do sometimes need a nice long fastener, like when reaching through some shims to get to solid wood. This mainly occurs around bridge abutments and a few other places where I may need to adjust things more than originally anticipate. I use ME 30-102 Large Spikes for this, usually used in O and G scales. The head is large, but when you need the reach they have it.
For HO, there are two widely available choices. ME 30-104 is a good sturdy spike with a thick shank that's easy to get control of if just starting with spiking track. The head is much smaller than the bigguns, but you do need to watch it's placement if on the inside/flange side of the rail with Code 70 track, but is usually fine with Code 83 and larger.
My favorites are the ultra-sharp and pointy Walthers/Shinohara 948-360 Code 70/83 spikes. These have a thin shank and tiny head, so will be clear of the rail top for flanges to pass without any issues. They are somewhat more delicate than the ME 30-104, so take a bit of practice before you stop bending every other one. But the are very easy to sink into the wooden roadbed underneath for a solid connection once you get the hang of it.
For setting all of these, I use a Xuron spike insertion plier that is available only through Micromark: http://www.micromark.com/spike-insertion-plier,8242.html
They also make a Spike Removal plier, but this can be accomplished with the previously mentioned insertion plier: http://www.micromark.com/spike-removal-plier,8243.html
You might be thinking..."but I'm not handlaying track?" Which is true and may be why so many people don't think to use spikes with RTR track. However, spikes work great, you need far fewer than with handlaid track, and they virtually disappear once track is painted and ballasted. If you every need to move track, a putty kinfe or other blade can slip under the ties and a gently pressure will usually pop them right out, presuming you've laid the track on cork.
For both the ME Medium and W/S 948-360 spikes, in HO cork roadbed is just a little shorter than the spike is long. Effectively, you only need to set the tip of the spike into the wood of the subroadbed, making this easier than it sounds. Obviously, this doesn't work with foam underneath, but if you're old school and use wood, this works great.
richhotrain Since I am contemplating a new layout, I want to raise a thought that I have for discussion here. Would it make sense to use sheets of cork or foam for roadbed, laying track work on top of it, trimming it to size, and then securing the roadbed and track? Never having taken that approach, it makes sense to me as a practical solution. Rich
Since I am contemplating a new layout, I want to raise a thought that I have for discussion here.
Would it make sense to use sheets of cork or foam for roadbed, laying track work on top of it, trimming it to size, and then securing the roadbed and track?
Never having taken that approach, it makes sense to me as a practical solution.
Yup. That's also a good idea. I've done that too. But once you cut the foam to the track pattern, your stuck with it unless you buy more. Take the time to make sure you're trackwork is precisely how you want it before you slice into the foam or sheet cork.
I found it easier just to stick with the traditional strip roadbed, but you can certainly make your idea work.
RR_Mel I agree with The Bear, once the nails are painted it’s pretty hard to see them. I even pre drill the holes for the nails so that I don’t ding a tie pushing them in. I laid my track 26 years ago and I’ve never had any problems. Even fellow model railroaders have never mentioned my nailed track. Sure makes replacing a turnout easy. Mel
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
kasskaboose Before I ever put down track, I used the Atlas track software for the layout. Why just throw down track without consdiering radius, clearance, etc.? You then waste time/money buying track that you might not use and get frustrated in the process. No thanks!
Before I ever put down track, I used the Atlas track software for the layout. Why just throw down track without consdiering radius, clearance, etc.? You then waste time/money buying track that you might not use and get frustrated in the process. No thanks!
Well, you're really not just throwing down track when you realize the simple concept of how much benchwork is needed for a given radius of track. Meaning, a reversing loop built with 24 inch radius track requires benchwork of about 52 inches wide...and so on.....
After I developed a suitable plan, I drew that out on my insulation foam subroadbed with sharpies. The lines for track represented where I would the centerline for the cork roadbed. I secured the cork w/ shirt tacks and put the track on top to ensure there were smooth curves. Only after there weren't derailments did I secure the cork w/ white glue and nailed down the track w/ ME track spikes. While time-consuming, I avoid validating the saying 'failure to plan is a plan for failure.'
Most of my layout is ballasted, but the extension won't get done until I ensure the SD 45 can continue running flawlessly around the areas.
richhotrain Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it? Rich
Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it?
Yes. Frankly, I don't understand any other way to do it.
The only way I can avoid kinks is to lay all of the track first, work out the kinks at complicated places, trace lines on either side of the track, take it up, then lay the roadbed so it aligns with the two lines of the traced track. Then affix the roadbed to the subroadbed, then track to roadbed.
The idea of using a centerline to lay out the track pattern, then use it as a guide for roadbed, then track on top of that, seems like a whole bunch of fiddling with math, engineering, and measuring to achieve the needed precision to me, but that seems to be the accepted method taught by the experts and the published articles.
richhotrain .......and I nailed down the track. So, it was pretty easy to pull up track and road bed and re-lay it.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
mlehman richhotrain Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it? Srsly? How are you going to get anything right while it's floating in thin air? You're gonna need anti-gravity or some other technology.
richhotrain Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it?
Srsly?
How are you going to get anything right while it's floating in thin air? You're gonna need anti-gravity or some other technology.
My problem is the lack of experience with track laying techniques. When I started out 12 years ago, I used Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed and I nailed down the track. So, it was pretty easy to pull up track and road bed and re-lay it. But, next time around, I do not want to use nails. The caulk method makes more sense to me, but it raises the question of how to secure it.....and when.