This question has probably been posted before, but I don't care. I'm gonna ask it again.
The question is simple. Which comes first? Road bed or track?
The answer seems obvious.....the road bed comes first. Or does it?
Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it?
But how do you easily accomplish that?
Maybe the answer is not so simple.
I am interested in what others do.
Rich
Alton Junction
I prefer to keep it simple and lay subroadbed, roadbed and track, usually wood, cork and then track (old school) or wood, homasote then track.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 I prefer to keep it simple and lay subroadbed, roadbed and track, usually wood, cork and then track (old school) or wood, homasote then track.
I second what Rio posted. Affix your roadbed to the base (subroadbed) surface, whether it be wood or foam. I use latex acrylic caulk to attach the roadbed to the subroadbed, then spread it with a 1" putty knife. I use a 1" wallpaper roller to get the roadbed pressed into the caulk. Then, I use a staple gun to hold it in place while the caulk sets up; I give it 24 hours before removing the staples. I use a Black and Decker Mouse sander to make sure the surface is completely flat. Since I use cork for my roadbed, I also knock down the sharp edge of the top out surface of the cork.
To attach the track, lay a THIN bead of caulk down, spreading it so that the caulk is very thin. If you press your track down and the caulk oozes up between the ties, you have too much. It should be thin enough that you can barely see the cork underneath. I hold the track in place with push pins for another 24 hours to let it set up. Then, you're ready for ballasting.
If you try to put ballast down, then wiggle the track down into it, you're in for a headache of almost migraine proportions. If you search for "ballasting" in the "search the community" window, (it can be found on the right hand side of the forum page) you'll find plenty of posts about how to do it, if you have any questions about it.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I had a XTrackCAD track plan and drew it on the layout using a 6" pencilled grid. I located turnouts on the plywood and checked how things would fit and flow. I was using flextrack. In some cases I tweaked how things were spaced, especially some curved turnout crossovers. And I then marked along the outer edge of the track ties. I also fudged some easements into the curves and optimized curves that were to have varying radius. I did not connect all track though. I then marked by eye the middle of the track pattern and applied the split cork roadbed along the center marks. Then added track.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Very similar to Frank. I laid out curves using 22" sectional track, and turnouts, marked the edges of the ties, drew and centre line, and laid cork. Old school, I used nails.
I never ballast until running trains for months, to make sure the trackwork is good, and the tracj plan works.
Dave
Well, you should mark where the centerline of the track should be, then you lay one half of the roadbed to the centerline and the second half to the first half? If you are using sectional track, it will never ever work out right. That is why we use flex track, it can follow whatever happend to the roadbed.
No the that sounds all well and proper, but that is NOT what the LION did, since the LION does not use roadbed. Him lays the tracks directly on the Celotex (well you would use Homasote these days) Is subway tunnel you know! Or is elevated on structure. What need is for road bed. OK in few places where needed I just put ballast there. Most roadbed is far too tall anyway, like for a Class-1 rairlroad running at warp speed. LION does not even glue ballast. Since is not on an elevated roadbed, it is not going to go anywhere. Gravity works, guys!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
richhotrainWouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it? But how do you easily accomplish that?
I think we all agree that the roadbed has to be in place before permanently laying the track down. But I think the question here is to be able to fit and test track so that you know exactly where the roadbed cenerline needs to be. When I first got started that's what I did, using bits of carpet tape to stick the track to the subroadbed. Then moved the track aside, glued the roadbed down and went from there. What I found- since I transferred the design to the subroadbed from Xtrackcad fitting and testing first really wasn't necessary. Everything fit and worked perfectly. So now I am just laying the roadbed down and going with it.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
If I'm not sure about how I want it to go, I put down everything with paper clips, un-bent into a U shape and then stuck through the roadbed and pink foam. This will hold quite well, and will come up easily. The U goes over the ties to hold the track in place. When I'm happy, I pull out the paper clips, glue things down and then replace the paper clips to hold everything down while the glue dries.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Actually I do have one place where I will go back to testing and fitting before laying down the roadbed. I will be breaking into existing straight track and fitting a couple of curves that are fed from a Walthers curved turnout. The Xtrackcad template for curved turnouts isn't 100% accurate so some fudging will be needed. Best way for that is to get the track right before commiting to the roadbed centerline.
Since I am contemplating a new layout, I want to raise a thought that I have for discussion here.
Would it make sense to use sheets of cork or foam for roadbed, laying track work on top of it, trimming it to size, and then securing the roadbed and track?
Never having taken that approach, it makes sense to me as a practical solution.
Rich, I am just getting back into the hobby and I am working in N scale. I did a lot of research before starting and what it led me to was Woodland Scenics foam roadbed. Very quiet and very easy to work and not expensive. Unlike cork you can lay the complete roadbed at once, not in halves, so you mark both sides of track not centreline. Doing curves and turnouts you do cut down centre for ease of 'bending '. I am working on a branch line layout so yards are often lower and less engineered compared to main roadbed, so I am using straight cork from a craft shop for yard and spur lines.
richhotrainWouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it?
I can't see doing that myself. Some examples from my layout:
Roadbed here is typical, sitting on risers above the benchwork, with much of it on a 1% grade. There would be no way to get the track components arranged in any meaningful way prior to the roadbed being there. Also, the roadbed at right is hardboard spline. I like to move it around and adjust curves as I build (adjusting how I picture the scene in the process). It would be nearly impossible to build splines into a shape matching pre-assembled track.
This #8 crossover was built from Central Valley kits. I prefer to build these in place, meaning the roadbed has to be there first. I like to have the turnouts in before adding track around them, so the rest of the track had to wait until I got the turnouts arranged like I wanted (in this case meaning the tie strip installed).
The way I like to install bridges often means handlaid rail on either side. Roadbed first!
Rob Spangler
To add another variable into the stew, think not only about roadbed but about topography. That is, what is your "ground zero" for relative height of main line, side tracks, yards, drainage ditches, culverts, and shallow water features. A taller roadbed gives you more options for those things. For really deep features such as ports, large rivers, gravel pits, and the like it is more practical to lower the benchwork or cut into the table top, but for routine everyday trackwork, it really pays to think ahead for how far below mainline track level you'll need for modeling.
Dave Nelson
richhotrainWould it make sense to use sheets of cork or foam for roadbed, laying track work on top of it, trimming it to size, and then securing the roadbed and track?
You can do that, but I think you'll waste a lot of material. It might make sense if you've got a double or even triple track main line, but for single-track it's got to be both easier and cheaper to go with roadbed strips.
I used a sheet of foam for a 4-track run-through ladder behind my passenger station. It worked well for that.
A scale planning diagramme, done on graph paper, is the first step. It must have realistic frog angles on the diverging routes and properly scaled radii on all curves. Tangent lengths must be very close to exact.
Then, I map it out on the floor. First the benchwork edges, then the track elements. I use 3/4" masking tape. I use a trammel to ensure my curves are correct. If they are, everything conforms to my scale diagramme when it is all taped out on the floor.
From there I use a plumb-bob. I build the layout frames and supports per the plan, including necessary bracing and blocking, and some joists to support risers for the sake of the sub-roadbed. Depending on what that sub-roadbed is, cookie cutter or splines, I plumb to get the risers of an appropriate size in the correct position to support the sub-roadbed. Once the sub-roadbed is in place, I can draw in the curve radii using the same trammel, and they should fit nicely along the splines or cookie cutter elements, even when spaced to prevent side-swiping on those same curves. From there, lay the cork or foam or luan strips, and then add the rails. Once you get to the flextrack, it should curve naturally and very closely conform to all the planning you did way up front.
Rich,
For sure lay the roadbed first. Use cork, don't use foam roadbed.
If you need to re-adjust the trackwork, its easy to pull up the roadbed. I just slid a sarrated kitchen knife under the cork. It comes up pretty easily.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Hello All,
Here's what I did...
For the curves I built trammels for the different radii. I then scribed center lines on the layout base; Blue foam, with the appropriate radius. For the straight sections I simply used a straight edge to connect the center lines of the curves.
I then placed 2-inch "T" pins on the scribed center line at about 4-inch intervals. If you are using wood as a base you can use brads, rather than the "T" pins, to demarcate the center line.
Then I split the roadbed lengthwise.
I applied Silicone caulk to one half of the roadbed.
Then using the "T" pins as guides I placed the roadbed. I used more "T" pins to hold one side of the roadbed while I repeated the same process to place the other side.
At the end of the curves the split roadbed was staggered along the scribed center lines. I matched the straight sections to the stagger. At the next joint in the straight section I cut the roadbed flush with the next section.
I allowed the caulk to cure for 24-hours and removed the "T" pins. If I needed to adjust the roadbed the Silicone caulk easily released the roadbed from the base. I made any necessary adjustments and repeated the process.
To place the track I used #19 x 5/8-inch brads to hold the track in place. I then ballasted the track and removed the brads.
For super elevation on the curves I used 5-1/2-inch long wood stirrers, the kind that you use in your morning coffe, that are 3/64-inch thick and 5/32-inch wide. I bought a box of 1,000 through Amazon for about $10.00 including shipping. I placed these under the outer edge of the ties before ballasting.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Srsly?
How are you going to get anything right while it's floating in thin air? You're gonna need anti-gravity or some other technology.
Keep it simple, rough in your roadbed, then you can lay track in test patterns to your heart's delight. Or find one of the old Arbour Models Track Template sets. I have one, but you can make one by tracing your track components on cardboard and cutting them out. Still have to have something under it to support it.
Or do like I do and use the configured templates as the pattern to cut your subroadbed. That's about as close as you'll get to anti-gravity given current technology.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
mlehman richhotrain Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it? Srsly? How are you going to get anything right while it's floating in thin air? You're gonna need anti-gravity or some other technology.
richhotrain Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it?
My problem is the lack of experience with track laying techniques. When I started out 12 years ago, I used Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed and I nailed down the track. So, it was pretty easy to pull up track and road bed and re-lay it. But, next time around, I do not want to use nails. The caulk method makes more sense to me, but it raises the question of how to secure it.....and when.
richhotrain .......and I nailed down the track. So, it was pretty easy to pull up track and road bed and re-lay it.
richhotrain Wouldn't it make more sense to lay the track to get it right and then slip the road bed under the track and secure it? Rich
Yes. Frankly, I don't understand any other way to do it.
The only way I can avoid kinks is to lay all of the track first, work out the kinks at complicated places, trace lines on either side of the track, take it up, then lay the roadbed so it aligns with the two lines of the traced track. Then affix the roadbed to the subroadbed, then track to roadbed.
The idea of using a centerline to lay out the track pattern, then use it as a guide for roadbed, then track on top of that, seems like a whole bunch of fiddling with math, engineering, and measuring to achieve the needed precision to me, but that seems to be the accepted method taught by the experts and the published articles.
- Douglas
Before I ever put down track, I used the Atlas track software for the layout. Why just throw down track without consdiering radius, clearance, etc.? You then waste time/money buying track that you might not use and get frustrated in the process. No thanks!
After I developed a suitable plan, I drew that out on my insulation foam subroadbed with sharpies. The lines for track represented where I would the centerline for the cork roadbed. I secured the cork w/ shirt tacks and put the track on top to ensure there were smooth curves. Only after there weren't derailments did I secure the cork w/ white glue and nailed down the track w/ ME track spikes. While time-consuming, I avoid validating the saying 'failure to plan is a plan for failure.'
Most of my layout is ballasted, but the extension won't get done until I ensure the SD 45 can continue running flawlessly around the areas.
kasskaboose Before I ever put down track, I used the Atlas track software for the layout. Why just throw down track without consdiering radius, clearance, etc.? You then waste time/money buying track that you might not use and get frustrated in the process. No thanks!
Well, you're really not just throwing down track when you realize the simple concept of how much benchwork is needed for a given radius of track. Meaning, a reversing loop built with 24 inch radius track requires benchwork of about 52 inches wide...and so on.....
RR_Mel I agree with The Bear, once the nails are painted it’s pretty hard to see them. I even pre drill the holes for the nails so that I don’t ding a tie pushing them in. I laid my track 26 years ago and I’ve never had any problems. Even fellow model railroaders have never mentioned my nailed track. Sure makes replacing a turnout easy. Mel
richhotrain Since I am contemplating a new layout, I want to raise a thought that I have for discussion here. Would it make sense to use sheets of cork or foam for roadbed, laying track work on top of it, trimming it to size, and then securing the roadbed and track? Never having taken that approach, it makes sense to me as a practical solution. Rich
Yup. That's also a good idea. I've done that too. But once you cut the foam to the track pattern, your stuck with it unless you buy more. Take the time to make sure you're trackwork is precisely how you want it before you slice into the foam or sheet cork.
I found it easier just to stick with the traditional strip roadbed, but you can certainly make your idea work.
richhotrainMy problem is the lack of experience with track laying techniques. When I started out 12 years ago, I used Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed and I nailed down the track. So, it was pretty easy to pull up track and road bed and re-lay it. But, next time around, I do not want to use nails. The caulk method makes more sense to me, but it raises the question of how to secure it.....and when.
Let me introduce you to a very handy device the prototype uses called...the spike.
I'm always surprised that so many people use track nails and adhesives as their primary means of fastening track.I don't use nails (see next paragraph), but sometimes use adhesives when laying track where there's foam underneath (mainly industrial spurs) or for hidden track where it's easier to run adhesive along the center line of the ties than to spike (I use E-6000 for that.)
I do sometimes need a nice long fastener, like when reaching through some shims to get to solid wood. This mainly occurs around bridge abutments and a few other places where I may need to adjust things more than originally anticipate. I use ME 30-102 Large Spikes for this, usually used in O and G scales. The head is large, but when you need the reach they have it.
For HO, there are two widely available choices. ME 30-104 is a good sturdy spike with a thick shank that's easy to get control of if just starting with spiking track. The head is much smaller than the bigguns, but you do need to watch it's placement if on the inside/flange side of the rail with Code 70 track, but is usually fine with Code 83 and larger.
My favorites are the ultra-sharp and pointy Walthers/Shinohara 948-360 Code 70/83 spikes. These have a thin shank and tiny head, so will be clear of the rail top for flanges to pass without any issues. They are somewhat more delicate than the ME 30-104, so take a bit of practice before you stop bending every other one. But the are very easy to sink into the wooden roadbed underneath for a solid connection once you get the hang of it.
For setting all of these, I use a Xuron spike insertion plier that is available only through Micromark: http://www.micromark.com/spike-insertion-plier,8242.html
They also make a Spike Removal plier, but this can be accomplished with the previously mentioned insertion plier: http://www.micromark.com/spike-removal-plier,8243.html
You might be thinking..."but I'm not handlaying track?" Which is true and may be why so many people don't think to use spikes with RTR track. However, spikes work great, you need far fewer than with handlaid track, and they virtually disappear once track is painted and ballasted. If you every need to move track, a putty kinfe or other blade can slip under the ties and a gently pressure will usually pop them right out, presuming you've laid the track on cork.
For both the ME Medium and W/S 948-360 spikes, in HO cork roadbed is just a little shorter than the spike is long. Effectively, you only need to set the tip of the spike into the wood of the subroadbed, making this easier than it sounds. Obviously, this doesn't work with foam underneath, but if you're old school and use wood, this works great.
richhotrainBut, next time around, I do not want to use nails. The caulk method makes more sense to me, but it raises the question of how to secure it.....and when.
I was very skeptical of using caulk to lay track, but once I started I was quickly sold. I like how everything stays put, and stresses from expansion and contraction find fewer weak spots like they can when the track is installed with spikes. Outside of code 100 track in staging, I never use track nails, as I don't like how they look, and don't care for trying to remove them after ballasting. I also like how solid everything is vs. using smaller spikes like Micro Engineering. For a time I combined caulk with ME small spikes, later finding the spikes didn't help except where I needed to align rail across wood ties or re-spike through holes drilled in plastic ties (as with correcting gauge on Walthers code 83 curved turnouts).
I use DAP Alex Plus clear sealant. It's not intended as an adhesive, but has more than enough strength to secure track. It also comes off pretty readily if you need to pry track up and re-use it.
I work in small areas, say only one piece of flex track at a time. I get the track aligned as I want it, holding it with push pins until the caulk sets. Connecting large assemblies beforehand is a formula for trouble, as it can be difficult to get everything installed and lined up correctly before the thin layer of caulk sets too much. After I have several pieces of track down in a given location, I clean it up, add feeders, solder rail joints, and test run some equipment.