So I am in the process of planning my layout, and I think I have become a bit obsessive to the point where I cant see further than wanting multiple industries on my layout which will only have a single garage worth of space (16ft by 9ft).
So I am stuck, and would really appreciate some advice:
I have planned a wrap around the wall. 2ft wide.
Any other suggestions would really be appreciated.
South African Model Railroader navigating the American model railroading world!
Hi, Terence,
I'd say the answer to question 1 is always a YES, no matter what size your space. No industry can provide more operating versatility than staging, which can represent any industry, anywhere in the world. Even if you have space for only two staging tracks (one incoming, one receiving), the ability to bring in and ship out any kind of car is invaluable from an operations standpoint.
Secondly, avoid building on-layout industries that serve each other. You'll quickly get bored shifting the same four coal hoppers from the mine on one side of the layout to the power plant on the other side. And realistically, industries that were really that close together would ship by truck (or even conveyor!). Build industries appropriate for the region you're modeling, and supply them with cargos brought in from off-layout via staging. Ship their production off-layout likewise. That's the kind of business that would realistically require rail service.
Third, you do need a classification yard, even if it's only a small one. An operating session begins by bringing one or more trains from staging to your yard, where they're broken down into loaded and empty cars destined for local industries and through cars destined for farther down the main line (translation: back to staging). Your local freights would originate from this yard, taking local cars out to the industries, pulling loads and empties, then heading back into the yard. There, the local cars would be classified by destination into outgoing trains. (Since your staging represents everywhere in the world, you can make up trains "bound for" Chicago, St. Louis, L.A., or wherever, even if they all end up going to the same staging yard.) In between sessions, restock staging with the next session's incoming trains.
So, to sum up, you need: staging; a classification yard; local industries; and some purely scenic areas to travel through between these three. A locomotive servicing area can provide visual and operating interest, but it can take up a lot of space you might find better used for another industry or two. Unless modeling engine servicing is one of your interests, you can represent engine servicing with a track leading offstage.
Good luck with your track planning, and happy railroading!
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Oh, one more thing: You mentioned both a turntable and a diesel servicing facility. Unless you're modeling the steam-to-diesel transition era (which would mean you need twice as much space for engine servicing), you wouldn't have both diesel servicing and a turntable. Turntables were primarily needed to turn steam engines. Diesels are designed to run in both directions, and didn't really need to be turned, so many turntables were filled in. A small diesel facility really only needs an engine shed/maintenance shop, a fueling stand, and a sand tower. You can fit that on a single spur from your yard.
The problem with questions like these is that only you know what you really want, and only you can tell if you'rereally satisfied with how it turns out. Your layout area isn't enormous, but it isn't small either, and you can definitely build a very satisfying layout in that space, especially if you have some areas wider than two feet.
You have two options: linking your layout into a continuous loop, or having it "end" so that trains exiting in one direction don't automatically reappear in the other direction. Since you're planning to go around the walls, even a continuous loop will provide the illusion of trains"going places" because you can't follow the train without turning and looking at a different area of the layout. My layout has the option to continue on a loop or divert to Cedar Hill yard, which functions both as a classification yard and staging. It is visible from the operators pit, but separated by a low backdrop.
This leads to your second question. You can have a series of interconnected industries, so that (for example) coal leaves the mine and is delivered to a power plant on the other side of the layout. This will work very well. I have one such sequence (timber --> sawmill --> lumber yard --> furniture factory), but the rest of my raw materials / finished products (passengers, coal, completed furniture, chemicals for the furniture plant, goods for merchants, food) come from or are sent off the layout via Cedar Hill yard (staging).
Locomotive storage and maintenance takes place at a small area with a roundhouse, engine shed, sanding tower, deisel fuel rack, coaling tower) at the end of one peninsula. Again, you can model this, or just send locos to staging and assume that maintenance occurs off-layout, with the loco not reappearing for several "days" while it undergoes maintenance.
The short answer, then, is that you don't have an either / or situation, but several different possible combinations, depending on your desires.
Good luck!
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
My HO layout is in a 9 foot by 24 foot space. You can look at it and see what I have done and possibly get some suggestions for yours if you want to. The mainline is single track but goes around the room twice. I also have a second level. I decided to run 4 axle diesels and 40 foot cars, so I set my mainline minimum radius at 18 inches. I know that is small, but it works for me. If you plan on running larger equipment, you should use a larger minimum radius.
http://waynes-trains.com/site/HO/C&A-Main-Page.html
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Some good points so far, so I might as well throw my half cent in. The first question to think about is what are you most interested in -- modern, 1980s, 1950s? Then are you interested in a mainline run that passes through town serving some local industries or local industrial switching without through mainline runs, or perhaps a town at the end of the branch?
These decisions can then affect the planning. Let's say for example, you want to focus on industrial work. You could get by with combining the staging and yard into one. Here's how that works. Cars were delivered "last night" on your off shift. Now you come to work and magically the old cars are gone and new ones there. You have to get them together, deliver to local businesses, and then bring the cars back to the yard, and go off shift, repeat the next day.
A similar method works with branch line. Staging on my layout is a single track that represents the junction between the branch and main. One the other hand, if you like mainline ops, given your around the walls, you could place a nice staging on one wall and then put the yard, local engine service, and several industries in the primary town. Daily ops could be much like the industrial switcher, but now you also add a couple of through trains to work around and some that drop off & pick up cars in the yard. That's pretty much how the CSX here in town works.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of matched industries on a layout, because the run time between them is too short. I have done it a similar thing on a previous layout, but instead of matched industries, I matched the coal mine up with two hidden staging tracks for the load out/empties in arrangement.
jim
To Mr. Otte's point about modelling the entire industry chain on your layout, I agree that just doing a continuous source to consumer loop between one raw material source and one consumer will get old quickly... if that's all you're doing. This is why my string has several stops, which require different trains (each intermediate step requires time to process its input. Moreover, these little locals don't have timetable priority, so the operator of these trains has to always be concerned with clearing the main before the next passenger train or priority freight comes through. This adds a high degree of challenge to the guy who's just trying to haul a load of logs down to the sawmill.
How do you plan to use the space? You mentioned a 2-foot around-the-walls layout. Will there be a car in there, too?
One option that might work for you is temporary staging, either across the doorway or in the center when you don't need to park the car, but that you can take down when you're done.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
One question I'd ask is, do you want industries for their interesting buildings, or do you primiarly want them for their operating interest -- a destination or source for loads or empties? I ask that because there are some "industries" that can take up very little space themselves yet be busy. By way of example, a siding I know of on the UP, formerly Chicago & North Western, serves two customers: a lumberyard in the next town gets centerbeam flats of lumber from time to time, sending over a forklift and flatbed truck to get the loads to their shop -- which would NOT be modeled because it is some distance away.
On that same siding, an outfit that makes plastic bags gets centerflow and other covered hoppers of plastic pellets. The relatively small pneumatic tube and box that unloads the car is across the street from the bag factory. You could model the factory (and in fact for a rail served business it is surprisingly small and modelable) but you wouldn't have to, it could be just off the edge of the layout.
So there on one siding you have two "industries" (customers) and no buildings taking up space.
I vote against the engine service facility particularly if it takes up a lot of room. The visual interest it adds is nice but it uses up lots of real estate. There are alot more industries/customers, and even a lot more small rail yards between the big yards (represented by staging) than there are engine service facilities and thus a disproportionate amount of precious space would be used on a service facility. True it could get tanks cars of fuel and covered hoppers of sand and thus be a sort of industry itself, but every square foot you have is valuable and needs to be put to its best use. Having said that you also do not want everything looking jammed and crammed and thus, even square feet of no tracks but just pure scenery can also be valuable.
Dave Nelson
To my way of thinking a loop is a neccesity, even if you never use it when doing op's if just to test stuff. I test all my stuff, not just engines. I also use max 50' cars and have 18" radius min. Did you know there is still one active 40' boxcar out there and working?
Ditto to Steve's thoughts.
I would say..... A 16 x 9 layout with a concern for industries tells me you will not be running very long trains as a major theme, so a staging wing could be added. At about 6 feet by 1 feet, it can easily fit on top of a book shelf or some other inobtrusive place. A wing would have to be strictly for staging, where you set the trains, then duck under into the operating pit and pull them out, perform your op session, put them back at the end. You would only want to duckunder twice during a session, once at the begining and once at the end. The wing can also be placed inside the pit instead of outside, and can be removable or drop down out of the way if short enough.
Since your shelves are 2 feet deep, you could hide staging behind a backdrop(making the scenicked part about a foot or more deep) or you can hide the tracks behind a cluster of what would have to be large buildings.
If you don't mind compromising realistic purity, you might be able to figure a way to scenickly combine staging to make it look like part of your yard. Personally, that's what I would do. I would prefer to add the benefits of staging and allow myself to ask "why are those other cuts of cars sitting on those three tracks". A scenic divider like a hill with some trees would allow you to just see the rooftops of the cars and your eyes would tend not to even notice them as you're operating.
A turntable and diesel servicing facility is takes up too much space for a layout of your size, unless you want one of the 16 foot walls to be a major yard.
I think having fewer larger industries looks better than having many smaller ones. But having 2 or 3 one or two car spot industries keeps thing interesting.
Just my thoughts...
- Douglas
Thank you everyone for your replies, you have cleared up lots for me!
BTW this is the space I am looking at:
terencevsShould I have a staging area in such a small space
Note that staging can be concealed behind a low or removable backdrop or under a large removable structure, so you don’t need to dedicate specific benchwork space to it. Interchange tracks are another good way to add staging in a minimum of space. Staging is a great investment in operating potential for not much space.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Here's another thought I forgot to add. My current layout is in a small space as well, along two walls, with the junction/staging being a short stub on a third. Given that small space, I avoided any sort of mainline trains because a realistic train would be chasing it's own tail, as well as switched my era to the 50's when smaller cars were more common. I have one primary industry that prototypically switches 3-4 cars in & out every day, and then several smaller businesses that realistically would see a car a week or so. I know that goes against the idea of several large industries to drive more switching but it fits the realitiy of the region and era I'm modeling, plus the fact that I like building small businesses in wood rather than large industries. So that's another way that era and location have an impact on your industries.
jmbjmb Here's another thought I forgot to add. My current layout is in a small space as well, along two walls, with the junction/staging being a short stub on a third. Given that small space, I avoided any sort of mainline trains because a realistic train would be chasing it's own tail, as well as switched my era to the 50's when smaller cars were more common. I have one primary industry that prototypically switches 3-4 cars in & out every day, and then several smaller businesses that realistically would see a car a week or so. I know that goes against the idea of several large industries to drive more switching but it fits the realitiy of the region and era I'm modeling, plus the fact that I like building small businesses in wood rather than large industries. So that's another way that era and location have an impact on your industries.
We probably need to define what "large" means in terms of industries and trains. IMO, on a layout of 16x9, a large industry would take 6 or 7 cars at a time (maybe every other day). Not that much more than the 3 or 4 you mention.
Maximum train length would be that train. On the off days that industry isn't switched, OP could build a train to switch smaller industries, and others on other days. I would work out an operating plan so train length wouldn't overwhelm the layout.
cuyama terencevs Should I have a staging area in such a small space Note that staging can be concealed behind a low or removable backdrop or under a large removable structure, so you don’t need to dedicate specific benchwork space to it. Interchange tracks are another good way to add staging in a minimum of space. Staging is a great investment in operating potential for not much space.
terencevs Should I have a staging area in such a small space
This is exactly what I have done. Access tracks depart the mainline and run behind a 24" high backdrop, rising 2" as they do so. Along the long edge of the layout, there is a 6" high backdrop, which, because the tracks in that area are 2" higher, action in the yard / staging is easily visible, yet there is enough backdrop to separate the two scenes.
DoughlessWe probably need to define what "large" means in terms of industries and trains. IMO, on a layout of 16x9, a large industry would take 6 or 7 cars at a time (maybe every other day). Not that much more than the 3 or 4 you mention.
Let's take a simpler look..
How about a "large" industry means big enough to require rail service?
A example.
A (oh,say) 4 1/2" wide and 9" long factory would be too small and a loaded car would overwhelm their small shipping/receiving area by the time you think about the production area,lunch room and restroom(s).
Whereas a (oh,say) 6" wide x 16" long factory would look like it needs rail service-think Walthers Cornerstone industrial buildings as prime examples..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Doughless We probably need to define what "large" means in terms of industries and trains. IMO, on a layout of 16x9, a large industry would take 6 or 7 cars at a time (maybe every other day). Not that much more than the 3 or 4 you mention. Let's take a simpler look.. How about a "large" industry means big enough to require rail service? A example. A (oh,say) 4 1/2" wide and 9" long factory would be too small and a loaded car would overwhelm their small shipping/receiving area by the time you think about the production area,lunch room and restroom(s). Whereas a (oh,say) 6" wide x 16" long factory would look like it needs rail service-think Walthers Cornerstone industrial buildings as prime examples..
Doughless We probably need to define what "large" means in terms of industries and trains. IMO, on a layout of 16x9, a large industry would take 6 or 7 cars at a time (maybe every other day). Not that much more than the 3 or 4 you mention.
Agreed.
The buildings need to look big enough to deserve multi-car spots. (Of course you can have large industries that don't require buildings, if we want to be precise)
This is where planning provides benefits. OP could plan to conceal staging behind or inside a large structure that serves as one of the large industries on the layout.
But, personally, I would have my largest industry (the industry that requires the most rail cars) set as far away from staging/interchange as I could, in order to give the most rail cars the longest run around the layout; instead of just shuffling them from staging/interchange to the industry. The industry that conceal's staging could have a large footprint, but maybe only receives a couple of cars. A re-purposed large older building might make sense here.
You might do well to try to simulate larger industries rather than actually try to model them. Where many larger industries come off the “main line” you can often see a fence and a gate with vehicles at the siding or sidings but the industry itself is nowhere to be seen or way out of sight behind trees or hedges and you are not really seeing very much at all.
So for example, where here in Melbourne we had the Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI) sidings coming off the main western line on the Broad Gauge to Adelaide, we could see the lines ( there were quite a few sidings there) into and past the gates but not much else as there was a series of trees and bushes blocking the “view” of the factory buildings etc. Yet such an industry generated the need for many goods wagons (tanks, containers, vans/boxcars and flat cars of different types which added to the operating variety of trains working into the area.
To simulate it, any old siding with a fence and gate with views blocked by trees or walls can generate a lot of varied traffic on your layout... and you hardly have to build a thing!
terencevs Thank you everyone for your replies, you have cleared up lots for me! BTW this is the space I am looking at:
Your diagram doesn't show where the entrance to the room is. I presume it's somewhere along the left wall, in an area not covered by benchwork. Since you have the staging area tapering to a narrow end, I presume the door is closer to the bottom of the diagram, forcing that dimension of the staging area.
Based on that assumption, and other things I observe in that diagram, my suggestions would be:
1) Slide the top turnback "blob" (the wide area where I presume you're planning to put a loop) all the way to the wall on the left, where the workbench is now. The workbench doesn't need "air clearance," since you'll be working at it sitting down; you can build the layout benchwork high enough to put the workbench underneath one of the narrow parts of the layout. This will give you another meter-plus of mainline run.
2) Eliminate the turnback blob on the bottom. In its place, extend a narrow lift-out/swinging/duck-under bridge extending across the aisle to the other side of the layout to provide continuous running. Extend the shelf all the way to the left wall.
3) The staging area is far too short. It should be several meters long, so you can stage entire trains. I'd place it against the top wall, connected to the track crossing the duck-under bridge. It need be only a few tracks wide, since you'll have the full length of the wall to stage trains behind each other. Conceal it behind a low backdrop that you can see and reach over.
4) The backdrop concealing staging can be disguised as large, low-profile industrial flats. Make two or three of these buildings big enough to realistically require multiple spurs, loading doors, and car spots.
5) The other long wall on the south side is the perfect place for your classification yard. You can add a diesel servicing area at one end and a small industry or two as well, either in the corner or as backdrop flats.
6) That leaves the right wall for rural scenery, a small town, or (my choice) an interchange track that connects to the other end of your staging tracks.
But that's just what I would do. Feel free to use or ignore any and all of it.
Here's a quick sketch showing my ideas on your diagram. Note that all track arrangements are rough approximations. If I were to spend more time on this I'd probably want to both lengthen the yard and put more thought into the industrial side track arrangement.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/m/mrr-layouts/2289728.aspx
This is from experience with my present layout. I didn't plan for staging on Phase 1, a 5x12 island. I recognized it as a deficiency, so I put in what I thought would be a 4-track staging yard in my Phase 2 design, one of which would generally be used as a through track. Once I built it, though, I found I needed another one of those tracks for switching, and the others tended to be "train storage," which I suppose still qualifies as staging. Now I'm building Phase 3, which will be dedicated to staging. Yes, you want staging. It's even more important on a small layout.
I've got a couple of "industries" that give you operational interest that might not be thought of as industries. The first is the carfloat. It's got space for 15 40-foot freight cars on three tracks. Unloading and reloading takes a while, but it's effectively a small staging yard as well, as any type of car would be appropriate. The other is an icing platform for ice-bunker reefers. This is one of those rare industries that would be realistic to combine with others on your layout. I've got a brewery and a packing plant, both of which would need iced reefers, and it's not something where trucks would be a more logical choice. In addition, if your operations model "through traffic" that doesn't have a source or destination on your layout, you could still bring a string of reefers to your icing facility en route.
oops, never mind
Thanks Steve for the suggestions, and everyone else for their input to! Really appreciate the response from everyone and it has helped my confusion a lot!
BTW Steve you presumed right the door is where you said!
I'm not much interested in trackplanning - I built my layout without one and am pleased with the results. My one suggestion would be to forego the classification yard - they're great space eaters and add little to a small layout. If doing classification work is an area of interest, incorporate it into your staging.
While the area shown below is part of a larger layout, it's roughly the same as your 9'x16' space, and includes 13 industries, 6 of them having room for multiple-car spots. It also includes 2 small passenger stations and a locomotive servicing facility with a turntable. Layout depth is about 30" on both sides and 36" at the far wall. I'm currently working on adding a second level, which will connect to the rest of the layout at near upper left of the picture. This will dead-end at a staging yard about 30' beyond the right side of the photo.I run mostly short trains, 8-12 cars, and most trains switch at all towns through which they pass. This adds operational interest and helps to take attention away from the fact that the two towns shown are so close together.
Build your layout high enough so that your workbench can be placed beneath it - as mentioned, this is a place where you're usually seated anyway. You could also place your staging beneath the layout, with a no-lix to bring it up to layout level. This would require grades steeper than prototypical, but an extra loco or two could handle it. With a little ingenuity and perhaps a switchback, staging could be double-ended or you could simply create two hidden staging areas, each arriving on-layout above the other Keep your trains short - a dozen cars or less, and run trains more frequently rather than long do-everything moves.
Wayne
doctorwayne I'm not much interested in trackplanning - I built my layout without one and am pleased with the results. My one suggestion would be to forego the classification yard - they're great space eaters and add little to a small layout. If doing classification work is an area of interest, incorporate it into your staging. While the area shown below is part of a larger layout, it's roughly the same as your 9'x16' space, and includes 13 industries, 6 of them having room for multiple-car spots. It also includes 2 small passenger stations and a locomotive servicing facility with a turntable. Layout depth is about 30" on both sides and 36" at the far wall. I'm currently working on adding a second level, which will connect to the rest of the layout at near upper left of the picture. This will dead-end at a staging yard about 30' beyond the right side of the photo.I run mostly short trains, 8-12 cars, and most trains switch at all towns through which they pass. This adds operational interest and helps to take attention away from the fact that the two towns shown are so close together. Build your layout high enough so that your workbench can be placed beneath it - as mentioned, this is a place where you're usually seated anyway. You could also place your staging beneath the layout, with a no-lix to bring it up to layout level. This would require grades steeper than prototypical, but an extra loco or two could handle it. With a little ingenuity and perhaps a switchback, staging could be double-ended or you could simply create two hidden staging areas, each arriving on-layout above the other Keep your trains short - a dozen cars or less, and run trains more frequently rather than long do-everything moves. Wayne
Thanks for the input and photo Wayne!
Wayne, do you mind posting some photos of the far end, that looks stunning!
Not sure if it's been said, but if you really really want a turntable and roundhouse, engine servicing facilities also are "industries". They receive shipments of coal for the towers/docks, oil, kerosene, waste cloths, fuel some diesel during the transition era, lumber for repairs, etc. etc.
I have an 8'X17.5' layout 30" bench top width and with an upper level (not an upper deck) there is enough room and separation to have "everything", including a turning wye at the upper level's end and still have about 8 small industries and a city scene (2' X8') to ship things like food, linens, hardware, gasoline, etc. to.
I have a Port Terminal (walthers) Bldg. for a "universal industry" as well as 4 tracks of staging. I wish I had 8 tracks for staging...
I have a classification yard (along with the t.t. & r.h.) running 14 ft. along one wall with the main line running behind it on two levels (a single track oval, basically)
If you are considering protoype style operation sessions, I like having the classification yard so that the action is plentiful and can learn how to be an efficient yardmaster for operating on others' layouts at sessions. So, for me, personally the servicing facility and "large" classification yard were something I wasn't willing to live without.
If your layout is primarily for "display" and round and round runnning with some switching at industries when you're in the mood, the large yard (and maybe turntable/r.h.) might take up too much space. For me it's the focal point of the layout and it's operations.
Maybe that'll give you an additional idea of what's "fit-able" and desirable in your space?
I hope to get some pics onto photobucket or similar this year...sorry none for now.
Jim
PS: If you haven't checked out the links on Cayuma' postings they are excellent for planning. If you can afford to, maybe consider his services especially if you're not completely certain of U.S. prototype practices, etc.
Cheers, Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Doughless, I absolutely agree with what you said. In my case, the 3-4 per day was what the prototype handled typically. I also agree with making it the furthest from the "staging" and not just for lenght of run. This industry is the reason for the railroads existence, all the others like the lumber yard, the the fuel & oil, the team track, exist because this industry is there. If this industry were to move to China (which the prototype did), then unless the locals could recruit some new one to take it's place, the railroad would be pulled up (which it was) and the entire town would die (which it is).
terencevs Wayne, do you mind posting some photos of the far end, that looks stunning!
Don't mind at all, and thanks for your kind comment, too.These were taken in response to your request, and proceed from near left (in the previous photo) to the far end of the aisle, then back towards the viewer along the right side of the aisle. (Click on the photos to get an enlarged view, and, except for the second and third photos, click on the enlargement for an even bigger picture.)
While there are a couple of industries out-of-sight behind the camera, this is Bowyer Brush & Broom Works (with an out-of-focus stock pen in the foreground) :
The local station is centre-frame, with a produce distributor to the left and a coal and ice dealer in the distance. The white structure partially hidden behind the depot is an egg-grading station, with a team track to the right of that, and the local grain elevator:
Here's a better view of the grain elevator:
Just beyond the outskirts of town (and at the end of the aisle in the original photo) is Chippawa Creek:
Here's the crossing at Indian Line:
This is the multi-span bridge over the Maitland River:
Here's the east end of Lowbanks, with the river in the background. Water tower, service sheds and part of the repair shop is on the near side of the tracks, and the stockyards on the other side:
Coal dealer and the local lumber yard
The repair shop is at left, with the coaling tower centreframe and the depot to the right:
An overview of the shops area, with the enginehouse in the foreground. To the right is a large icehouse - mostly storage ice to be shipped to dealer outlets around the layout, although it does ice the occasional car. (The couple of diesels partially visible must be time travellers, as the layout is set in the late '30s :
And a view from the near end of the aisle. While the towns are very close together, there's lots of switching activity available to keep crews busy: