A big part of lone-wolfing a sizeable layout consists of keeping the priorities straight. The object is to run trains. SO:
I'm building a double garage filler to a very specific master plan, and have some health problems that put a definite hitch in my layout-building. BUT, I have enough to keep me happy, even though progress is slow. I can make wheels roll, which makes everything worthwhile.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - slowly)
cmrproductsI have never heard a Layout Owner, that is into heavy OPERATIONS! say he wished he had a SMALLER LAYOUT!
Bob,I would think I'm into heavy prototype switching even through my layout could easily hide in yours.Like the prototype industries isn't switch every day nor is it unusual to have some overflo cars that must be held until thr customer is finished unloading his car(s).I don't think I would want a larger layout and at 10' I sure enough don't want a smaller ISL.
And yes all my Walthers's buildings fits on the layout and I goof when I resized the plan..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I have never heard a Layout Owner, that is into heavy OPERATIONS! say he wished he had a SMALLER LAYOUT!
If going around in circles is your thing then by all means build a small layout!
You can get into the Scenery and Structurers much quicker!
But as one club I know of - they get all of the track down and run it to check for problems (derailing, kinks, dips in the track, etc>) and then they start Scenery in the areas that the trackwork is finished!
BUT - they only do a square foot or so at a time and when they walk away - that sq ft is DONE!
No more will be done to it as they have moved on to the next sq ft! The Trees, Ground Cover, Structurers, Details, Figures - EVERYTHING is there in that Sq Ft!
When the general public comes in during Open House - they see finished Scenery - in what areas that have been worked on !
While this is not what I do as I have too much background work to do in certain areas - I usually have to build a Loading dock - or retaining wall before I can get into the Scenery!
When I get into a mood to do Scenery - and I have to stop to do the background stuff - and waiting for the Glue to dry or Paint on the background item -
It sure takes the Mood right out of me!
And you wonder why I don't have much Scenery!
At least I can go do some Switching - as the TRACKWORK is DONE! and it WORKS!
I can do Scenery Tomorrow - or maybe the next DAY or WEEK or MONTH ! ;-)
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Kalmbach published a book on locomotive terminals & servicing facilities a couple years ago & I'm sure it's still available. I can't put my hands on it at the moment, so I can't give the exact title. When in doubt, look to the practices of the 12" = 1'0" railroads. They did things in particular ways for valid reasons. Try to understand what they did and why. I hate to tell you to spend all your money on books; after all, you will need some left over to buy trains. But books on specific aspects of real railroading can be a very worthwhile investment.
WOW !!!!!
I cant believe all these wonderful responses !! You guys are just so awesome. Thank you all so very much. Everyone has raised many valid points in each and every section of layout building,
I will have a couple of friends over to help me build the layout and eventually run trains , I know I have big goals for this layout
I want to have staging and switching to industries , paper mill, woodchip, steel works, concrete and gravel yard, manufacturing plant , furniture , lumber and general freight so there is a lot to consider when it comes to track planning.
When it comes to scenery , i wll start running trains asap and scenery will be done on dedicated days of the week and it WILL get done once I'm happy with my track arrangement. I too am not really a fan of a plywood desert
When it comes to a perticular era , I'm not really going prototypical I love too many trains to be restricted to modelling just one era or theme , If I like a certain loco (steam or deisel) I want to run it , Is there anything wrong with that ? after all its "My layout , My rules " right ?
One thing i'm not sure on is how to arrange the tracks to service them so if anyone could post a diagram on this that would be a great help.(point arrangements and sidings etc).
You guys are so great!!
From the land down under
Reading this whole thread has been a lot of fun. It's ranged through small vs. large, operations vs. scenery, lone-wolf vs. group operations, etc. It's also highlighted the aspect of cameraderie in the hobby, plus the wide differences in approach to the hobby.
Returning to the O.P.'s original question, I would suggest that the best way (if there is really a "best" way at all) to approach the design of a layout is to look inwardly and think about the things that first attracted you to model railroading, and the things that keep you interested. Is there a favorite location? A favorite railroad? A favorite era? A favorite style of railroading (busy mainline; easy-going shortline; traction; narrow gauge; etc.); A favorite engine type? Favorite industries?
Once you've answered these questions, you can begin to imagine how you would represent your favorite features on a layout. You can start to imagine the general type of landscape, and you can start to imagine the locations that best represent that vision. Then you can start to get specific with issues like "My major yard will fit in along this long wall"; "One of my favorite small-town locations can be fit in over here"; "This open space will be available for some sweeping curves"; "The ceiling is high enough here to allow for an upper level" or "The ceiling is high enough here to allow for a towering mountain". Eventually, it will start to come together in your mind.
Every layout mentioned above is different from all the others. Your layout should represent what is important to you, and shouldn't be a reflection of what somebody else wants.
tomcatHow do the guys with massive rooms or basements in their houses figure out and design a layout that they are happy with.(or at least to start with anyway) Has anyone had so much space for their dream layout, that they have so much trouble designing a layout to go in that space?
Has anyone had so much space for their dream layout, that they have so much trouble designing a layout to go in that space?
Then I also started working at the muesum layout and realized that even if I could get something like this built, it would be a full time job to maintain it and I would never find enough people to run it on a regular basis.
So I think it is too much space for a single person. My plan is now to build a separate building about 1/2 this size designed specifically for the layout.
richhotrain Bob, when you and your crew head over to a local layout for the first time, what is your experience with the track work? Is it designed efficiently to handle Ops in all cases? Is it bullet proof? In terms of no derailments, unintended uncouplings, etc. Rich
Bob, when you and your crew head over to a local layout for the first time, what is your experience with the track work?
Is it designed efficiently to handle Ops in all cases?
Is it bullet proof? In terms of no derailments, unintended uncouplings, etc.
Rich
Usually we have one or two of our I-80 Group members check out the layout by getting ask to one of their regular OPs Sessions (if they are holding regular sessions) or to just see the layout if the Owner is contemplating hosting a session!
While most of the layouts we visit, the layout is generally are very good but Operations can vary wildly!
SO I really can't say that they are designed for efficient OPs. We just run the layout and will make suggestions as most of the Owners are open to suggestions when it come to OPs.
Even our local member layouts are in a continual build or rebuild as they try to make changes to smooth out the Operations eliminate derailments, etc!
One thing about doing OPs is, the Layout Owner (if really interested in Hosting a Great OPs Session) will be always changing the layout to make the OPs Session run better!
We have run on layouts that could only run 3 Operators at one time to those that can take 12 or more. I have had 30 on my layout a couple of times but soon found the 20 was the magic number!
Believe it or not - we are in the planning stages for a trip to Grand Rapids MI !
I will keep you in mind!
cmrproducts I have had a lot of visitors to my layout over the years and while the huge Layout seems to impress everyone I am usually asking the Visitor if they have a layout of their own! One (which is now one of our regulars) stated he had a small bedroom N Scale Layout and stated that he had not done much Operations with it. I ask if we could come up and see it and we did - soon the Operations were going on! While we could only cram 3 guys in the room at one time - we took turns and everyone had a great time! He has added on to the layout and we can now keep 5 guys busy and this is in a 10 x 10 Bedroom! Another visitor also ask us about having an OPs Session but his was in the Philadelphia area. So 6 of us made a overnight trip (as we had a larger layout to run on on Saturday)! Sunday we ran on the smaller layout and the owner kept stating that it wasn't as big as mine but I kept telling him that size isn't everything! The layout had double helixs and 3 level base - What impressed me was the way the Helixs could be run into and out of them to gain access to all 3 levels! It was only an 18 x 18 but it kept 8 of us busy for 4 hours - only 3 could be running at one time but as each train finished its run another Operator took the next train out! What is interesting is the small layouts seem to be more creative in the way the Owner sets up the OPs (Switching) and this, to me, is much more interesting than just taking a long train and run around the layout!
I have had a lot of visitors to my layout over the years and while the huge Layout seems to impress everyone I am usually asking the Visitor if they have a layout of their own!
One (which is now one of our regulars) stated he had a small bedroom N Scale Layout and stated that he had not done much Operations with it.
I ask if we could come up and see it and we did - soon the Operations were going on!
While we could only cram 3 guys in the room at one time - we took turns and everyone had a great time!
He has added on to the layout and we can now keep 5 guys busy and this is in a 10 x 10 Bedroom!
Another visitor also ask us about having an OPs Session but his was in the Philadelphia area. So 6 of us made a overnight trip (as we had a larger layout to run on on Saturday)!
Sunday we ran on the smaller layout and the owner kept stating that it wasn't as big as mine but I kept telling him that size isn't everything!
The layout had double helixs and 3 level base - What impressed me was the way the Helixs could be run into and out of them to gain access to all 3 levels!
It was only an 18 x 18 but it kept 8 of us busy for 4 hours - only 3 could be running at one time but as each train finished its run another Operator took the next train out!
What is interesting is the small layouts seem to be more creative in the way the Owner sets up the OPs (Switching) and this, to me, is much more interesting than just taking a long train and run around the layout!
Alton Junction
cmrproducts BTW - Rich - where do you live?
BTW - Rich - where do you live?
richhotrain Bob, I am always interested in reading what you have to say, but I found this reply to be particularly interesting. The notion of single wolf operators inviting your group to conduct an Ops session on their layout. Fascinating! Rich
Bob, I am always interested in reading what you have to say, but I found this reply to be particularly interesting.
The notion of single wolf operators inviting your group to conduct an Ops session on their layout. Fascinating!
Rich!
This is why I have so much Switching on my current layout !
It is the mental challenge of moving the cars into the proper Industries that is more fun than just running around the Mainline!
I could go up stairs and let the train run the Mainline and it would be all the same to me - What Fun is that?
richhotrainBut my comment was directed at the generosity of Bob's group to visit local layouts and show lone wolf operators how to improve their layouts and conduct effective Ops sessions.
Most round robins I know of does that..Of course the return investment is gaining another layout to operate on.
I knew one group had 19 members and 19 different layouts to operate on..Last I heard there was 7 left.Most of the members either moved away,passed on or in poor health.
BRAKIE richhotrain The notion of single wolf operators inviting your group to conduct an Ops session on their layout. Fascinating! Rich Rich,That does not surprise me..If the layout is large enough even the lone wolf will find a pack to operate with so,he can enjoy a full return on his investment.
richhotrain The notion of single wolf operators inviting your group to conduct an Ops session on their layout. Fascinating! Rich
Rich,That does not surprise me..If the layout is large enough even the lone wolf will find a pack to operate with so,he can enjoy a full return on his investment.
But my comment was directed at the generosity of Bob's group to visit local layouts and show lone wolf operators how to improve their layouts and conduct effective Ops sessions.
I need them to come visit mine. And, I even live close to I-80.
richhotrainThe notion of single wolf operators inviting your group to conduct an Ops session on their layout. Fascinating! Rich
cmrproducts To give the Layout Owners in our Local area a way to experience the FUN of running on larger layouts and to see what it takes to handle a layout – a number of us got together and began Hosting OPs Sessions on various local layouts! This way they could see first had what it took to keep these layouts up and running! Soon there were more Owners (from as 50 to 75 miles away) asking if the group wanted come to their layout for an OPs Session – thus began the I-80 Group.
I was blessed with a 30x50 basement of which I could devote about 75% to my hobby. That seemed a bit much bit I got lucky when two model railroaders in my hick town offered to help. It was decided that I could have sort of a benevolent dictatorship. I got the "bull work" (carpentry) out of the way and now most of the track is laid and the wiring done.
Enter fate. The young guy moved across the country because of his job and the older guy got sick and died. Most of the other modelers I have met are pretty busy with their own layouts and so now I am running trainis around a plywood desert with 2 1/2 scale miles of mainline, 1` 1/2 miles of secondary line and 6 small indutrial and interchange yards in addition to the main yard that holds about 300 cars.
I would have never gone this big if I had known what the future held. Problem is I have too much fun operating what I have and building more equipment to get much done on the layout. Guess that is not really a big problem.
At least I am getting some of the track painted and a few structures built. I think I will just take an area at a time and finish it before going on to another.
Charlie
cmrproductsI did NOT Build the layout to look at and only run a few trains
Nor am I..I build a layout-even a 10' ISL so I can get a return on my investment in the form of "play value".No need to invest thousands of dollars in cars and locomotives if one doesn't plan to use them.Nor to I seen any value in investing thousands of dollars in building a layout just to look at it or worst rip it out just for something to do or to try the latest idea mention in MR or RMC.
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Unfortunately – most Modelers seem to be of the Single (Lone Wolf) type of Layout Owner and this means a small layout would be more to their abilities to Build and Maintain!
Absolutely! I couldn't agree more.
But..
How can this come about when modelers is bombarded with "bigger is better?" and the monthly basement filling Godzilla size layout featured in magazines?
Even on this forum I've seen 4x8' layouts blasted..
Why?
Doesn't a 4x8 footer beat no layout or that "dream" layout that might,just might come to pass some year or several decades?
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So I guess this is why I seem to be so enthused about Operations and feel everyone should take a crack at formal Operations!
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Even operation in its simplest form is fun.
How simple?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_x7e7dPbTs
mobilman44 prep the room BEFORE starting that layout. You will likely regret it if you don't, but I doubt you will if you do.
One of my longer ISLs was located in a old fashion sewing room and went across a window and several modeling buddies asked why I didn't block the window instead of using a curtain..
Simple.
I prefer natural light over artificial light.
One should think twice and choose what pleases them.
Hi,
I think we all would wish to have your situation. But I do believe I understand your dilemna.
IMO, few modelers start out with (and successfully complete) a super large layout. It is just too easy to bite off more than you can chew - and end up disgruntled.
Those of us who are lone wolf modelers know all too well that the bigger the layout, the more potential for problems and the more time/effort need for maintenance.
Twer I were you, I would study the layout plan books, and find something that you can relate to, and also one that is of moderate size and has expansion possibilities. You can "get your feet wet" building this, and it will lead you to a future expansion (or not).
Oh, one thing I would do first........... prep the room BEFORE starting that layout. You will likely regret it if you don't, but I doubt you will if you do.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
cmrproductsAnd the notion that once the track is down there would be NO CHANGES is a little foolish thinking!
In some cases yes and I found those that do change their track found what looked good on paper was not a great idea but,a operating nightmare..
On my few loop layouts and all of my ISL I planed as I go by laying the track in place and soon realized it was good idea or forget that idea it ain't going ta work old son!
Think of the wasted time doing rework if I rushed into track laying with a paper plan in hand.
Sir Madog cmrproducts Why do I have to have scenery to RUN TRAINS????? I thnk that some one has misinformed too many others in that notion! Bob - apparently you have not read my thread carefully. I said I don´t like bare layouts aka Plywood Central RR, I prefer to have some sort of scenery on it.
cmrproducts Why do I have to have scenery to RUN TRAINS????? I thnk that some one has misinformed too many others in that notion!
Bob - apparently you have not read my thread carefully. I said I don´t like bare layouts aka Plywood Central RR, I prefer to have some sort of scenery on it.
Unfortunately too many on here seem to think otherwise as this a reoccuring theme talking about Scenery more than actually running trains!
The only reason I built the layout was to host OPERATIONS!
I started early - only about 3 months after a little benchwork was in.
While it wasn't a plywood central (more like painted Homasote Central) the trains still ran well and there was little sense in putting in a lot of Scenery as the Layout was under major construction and would be for the next 3 years (I started back in 2001 building the layout).
And the notion that once the track is down there would be NO CHANGES is a little foolish thinking!
I was making changes all of the time to the operating parts as the crew (which I had to Learn them OPERATIONS from get go) were suggesting changes to the siding lenghts or add a Crossover here or there to make OPERATIONS! go a bit smoother or faster!
I would consider these changes and usually impliment them into the Layout!
It would be kind of wasteful if I was constantly tearing up Scenery to make these changes - Would it not?
So this has gone on for 12 years now and I have been doing Scenery right along to areas that I knew that were not planned on having major chenges to!
The Layout is probably 30% to 40% covered with base scenery and as time goes on I will update sections I have already done to make them look new or try out a new technique!
The Scenery will never be done as I will continually upgrade it as new materials become available.
But putting in Scenery and not having most of the trackwork done and then just putting more dust all over it just to say I have Scenery in is kind of - Less than Smart!
I'm looking to retire soon, and with that will likely come a move out of our high-tax location. There will also be reduced income and increased available time. Right now I've got a good-sized home layout, about a hundred square feet.
I'm not moving anywhere unless I get a good-sized train room, perhaps even bigger than the 24x24 room I've got now, although that's shared with the TV Pit. My thinking about the future is to disassemble my layout and put it back together, either as is or reconfigured a bit based on a larger space. My layout now is mostly urban, with a lot of track. What I would like to add is open space, perhaps a narrow shelf that runs a long way and ends up in staging. That sort of thing is easy to scenic, and can be added to as time permits, giving a lot of added potential without a lot of time to get it up and running.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I agree with Bob H.
It took me five years of weekly operating sessions to up grade one industry from a cardboard box to a better looking structure. When I did upgrade two passenger trains went past before the change was noted.
I also found that having friends in was a great way to find spots that needed another spur to make operations better. I'd hate to do too much detailling and then feel the urge to rip it out.
The guys also liked to spot what, if anything I had done between sessions.
Enjoy, have fun.
Dave
cmrproductsWhy do I have to have scenery to RUN TRAINS????? I thnk that some one has misinformed too many others in that notion!
I don't ever expect to have a house with a large space - albeit in a spare room or basement. Even if I did, I would more than likely confine the size of the layout to how much of one I would want to maintain (i.e. clean/dust/vacuum) on a regular basis. If you enjoy that sort of thing then the skies (or ceilings/walls) the limit. If you don't then thinking smaller is not a bad thing - even if you only utilize part of the space you have available to you.
For me, the first place to start when designing any layout is to figure what I want to model - i.e. prototype, era, location(s), and commodity (freight, passenger, or both). With that in mind I can then visualize how best to utilize the space I have and work within those confines. Studying the prototype(s) you want to model will also help you see how they handled the "space" that they had to work with. And limiting the amount of "compression" will add to the realism of any layhout.
Hope that's a help...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Sir Madog To be honest, with that background I would not feel comfortable having a really large space (in my understanding anything above 10´ by 15´) available to be filled with a layout. I can´t picture myself working for years or even decades on one layout, before being able to run a train through something being at least semi-finished. The Plywood Pacific RR is not my thing, I´d rather go for detail, which is time consuming. I am also a scratchbuilder, more out of necessity than by own choice. There won´t be a single structure on my On30 layout that is either kit-built or RTR. How much space is too much space? That question can only you answer. Biting a big chunk out of the apple is one thing, swallowing it another. When the fun leaves and building your layout becomes a chore, you know you went for something beyond your means.
To be honest, with that background I would not feel comfortable having a really large space (in my understanding anything above 10´ by 15´) available to be filled with a layout. I can´t picture myself working for years or even decades on one layout, before being able to run a train through something being at least semi-finished. The Plywood Pacific RR is not my thing, I´d rather go for detail, which is time consuming. I am also a scratchbuilder, more out of necessity than by own choice. There won´t be a single structure on my On30 layout that is either kit-built or RTR.
How much space is too much space? That question can only you answer. Biting a big chunk out of the apple is one thing, swallowing it another. When the fun leaves and building your layout becomes a chore, you know you went for something beyond your means.
I don't know where this notion came from that one has to FINISH the Layout before running Trains!
Must be another Model Railroad Urban MYTH!
I was running trains (OPERATIONS!) about 2 months after I started my 2500 sq ft layout
While I was only going from one town to another and doing SWITCHING - we were OPERATING! with about 30 feet of mainline!
Since then there is now over 4000 feet of track down and every two weeks I have 20 Operators in to run the Trains!
Why do I have to have scenery to RUN TRAINS?????
I thnk that some one has misinformed too many others in that notion!
Since I begain OPERATIONS! back in 2001 we haven't missed too many Thursday Night OPs Sessions!
While the Scenery is far from being done - it is moving along as fast as I feel necessary!
And as for Maintenance - WHAT IS THAT??
I designed and a built a ZERO maintenance layout!
When YOU take short Cuts - that is when the MAINTENANCE begins!
Cut a corner now and PAY FOR IT the rest of your life!
Wow, that is awesome that the Pacific Southern is still around. I knew that they were allowed to keep going for a few years after Bob Latham passed, but did not know they were STILL in business. It's not often a large layout like that survives its builder, at least when built in a private home.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.