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Railroad Yard Length---HO Scale

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Posted by CNSF on Thursday, May 29, 2014 9:24 PM

What's the right length for a model rail yard?  Well...

How long is your layout room?

Is it hidden staging or part of the visible scenicked 'theatre stage'?

Is it a classification, division, or industry support yard?

Are you modeling one particular location, such as downtown Foameropolis, or do you want to capture the look and feel of a railroad line connecting two or more communities? 

If it's a classification or division yard, how long are your longest sidings and trains?

Will it have engine service facilities adjacent, and if so, how big are they?

How big do you want it to be, relative to any other planned scenes/sections of the layout?

How much selective compression are you using?  For example, if you're modeling multiple towns, how many linear feet are you allowing for each, or for the largest one?

What era are you modeling?  What is your average/typical freight car length?

And finally - how long is your layout room again?

There's no one 'correct' or 'best' answer, because it's all part of a complex web where everything has to fit together in - as others have quite rightly said - a balanced way that looks right to your eye.  But of course, as with curve radius, bigger is always better.  Make it as long as you possibly can without upsetting the balance and forcing you to make a whole bunch of other compromises and sacrifices.

My longest layout scene is a 22' straight stretch of benchwork containing a single track running through the countryside between towns.  My longest trains top out at thirty or so 40'-50' cars with 2-3 locos.  They pretty much fill that scene and are longer than my 15-20' small town scene.   That max length is dictated by my sidings and the two longest staging yard tracks (I don't have a visible scenicked yard).  I'm very pleased with the result - it looks right to me.   But that doesn't mean these are the 'right' or 'best' dimensions for everyone.

My son's 4'x6' layout (all HO here), features an intermodal yard with a single 4' track that comfortably holds 4 stand-alone well cars - or 5 if you block the entrance road.  It works surprisingly well because it takes up more than half the length of the city scene which occupies that whole side of the layout.  (The other side, separated by a hardboard backdrop, features a country scene.)  This is a good example of balance at work, within variable amounts of selective compression.    I'm using 15' to model a small rural town, he's packed a medium-sized city into 6'.  Because he has a great eye for composition, he's got the balance right and pulled it off.  That's probably nearing the extreme end of what's possible in HO, but it shows how everything is relative.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, May 29, 2014 7:11 PM

riogrande5761
I think selective compression came in vogue after John Armstrong wrote his book and any mention of the word may be due to latter day updating.

Actually the idea of selective compression had been kicked around for several years-I first heard it mention in the Columbus O Scale club back in '56 of course being 8 years old I was wondering what "selective compression" was about..IIRC it was also mention by Paul Larson-editor of MR of the time..John Armstrong just show us how to apply selective compression.

 

 

 

Larry

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"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by J.Rob on Thursday, May 29, 2014 6:24 PM

Big Boy Forever

60 feet = 1 mile in HO.

30 feet = 1/2 mile

15 feet = 1/4 Mile

Prototype yards I've seen are 1 to 5 miles long.

HO Yard Length = Unrealistic ....(Unless you have a big room)

 

What Say You ?

 

One needs to look at what will fit in your space. The length of passing tracks. The length of trains. What is the proposed purpose of the yard? is it a major clasification yard a division point an interchange or a yard that will serve local industries to name a few. Each track does not have to hold an entire train as many times trains would double into the yard, put their train on two tracks because it was too long to fit into one. If your trains are 20 cars or less it would be nice to have tracks that would hold the entire train. If you ever run a prototype length train, I ran a 160 car coal train on the club layout and have run 167 cars just to do it, you will likely need to double or more when switching the train into the yard, that train is over 80 feet long and has more than a foot of slack in it.

Our yard tracks are approx 12 to 16 feet long, and that train takes up 8 tracks. The yard tracks look ok at that length and you can put a few cars in them. If they were longer they would look better.

Rob in Texas

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Posted by J.Rob on Thursday, May 29, 2014 6:08 PM

Big Boy Forever

 

 
carl425
And theirs doesn't have dcc either, but it has a really good sound system

If you really want something to complain about, how about a scale budget? I wouldn't mine having 1/87th of the N&W's 1975 income to work with. Or would that be a cube root thing since it would require a big pile of money?

 

 

 

A used real SD-40 is about $80,000 to $100,000.

A used Athearn SD-40 is about $30 to $60 roughly.

Thats about $1,034 1/87 scale dollars.

Good thing hobby shops don't take 1/87 scale income.

 

Big Boy Forever
Good thing hobby shops don't take 1/87 scale income.
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Posted by ndaily on Thursday, May 29, 2014 5:57 PM

Big Boy Forever

 Actually, I was just trying to pick up a few pointers on making as realistic, "as is reasonably possible" in HO, a railroad yard from like minded individuals

 

A few years ago Model Railroad Planning or maybe MR suggested a road over-pass over the middle of the yard.  It could serve as an effective view-block to enhance the illusion that the yard is much longer.  -Nathan

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Posted by GITrr on Thursday, May 29, 2014 3:54 PM

selector
And on it goes... Do RC aircraft really 'fly?'

Yes, and at speeds very close to full-scale airplanes.  They do not have any more spiral stability and must be flown 'all the time' like the prototype.  I mostly fly Cessna 172 and the equivalent Piper Warior.  My friend had an RC plane that looked and flew like our flying club 172.  The RC plane's airspeed was about 75-100% of the full scale, about 100 MPH.

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Posted by Pruitt on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:26 AM

Big Boy,

My train room is about 40 X 25.

Laurel represents the interchange point between the NP transcontinental in MT and the CB&Q line through Wyoming. It also represents the CB&Q east from Crawford NE. It should be very busy, with 25 to 45 car trains passing through from Seattle WA staging to Minneapolis MN staging on the NP, and 20-25 car trains east from Crawford NE. The CB&Q will deliver 15-25 car trains to Laurel from the mainline through Wyoming, and pick up 15-25 car trains traveling north or south through Wyoming. Check out my website (different track plan, same concept) and my construction blog for more details.

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Posted by cuyama on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:36 PM

Big Boy Forever
What is the square size on your layout?

If you go to the linked web page and download the full .pdf, you'll see that it is a 1-foot grid. Pretty standard.

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Posted by Big Boy Forever on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:13 PM
What is the square size on your layout?
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Posted by cuyama on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 9:48 PM

Big Boy Forever
I have only found the term, "selective compression" one time so far in that book.

Look for his oft-repeated use of the word "condensed" in Track Planning for Realistic Operation. Armstrong offers many examples for readers who take the time to learn from them.

Big Boy Forever
trying to design modules to take apart when I move with a track plan I like, that it is difficult to get what info I am looking for. Most of his plans are for permanent layouts.

I don't think there is that much difference -- the basic design principles are the same. This larger HO layout was intended from the beginning to be sectionalized. But I did the basic design first without thinking much about sections and then went back and adjusted to best fit the sectional benchwork. Pretty straightforward.

Note that the sections vary in size and shape -- this makes it easier to fit the sections to the plan, rather than vice-versa. Note that no turnouts fall on a section joint and I tried to minimize the total number of tracks that cross section joints where I could by adjusting the sections. The main yard, for example, is made up of different-sized sections arranged to reduce the number of tracks crossing joints.

 

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 6:30 PM

I think selective compression came in vogue after John Armstrong wrote his book and any mention of the word may be due to latter day updating.  I really enjoyed reaing it myself and while it may not be oriented to modules, there is lots of great information in there.

The edition I have he calls 18 inch radii sharp, 24 inches moderate and 30 inches broad!  It just goes to show you how times change.  My minimum on my 10 x 18' layout is 32 inches and autoracks look even a bit silly on the 32 inch curves!

Cheers, Jim

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by Big Boy Forever on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 5:15 PM

wjstix
 
Big Boy Forever

60 feet = 1 mile in HO.

30 feet = 1/2 mile

15 feet = 1/4 Mile

Prototype yards I've seen are 1 to 5 miles long.

HO Yard Length = Unrealistic ....(Unless you have a big room)

What Say You ?

 

 

 
I'd say it's exactly the same as everything else in model railroading. We reduce the size of things so they fit our space.
 
A "broad" HO curve of 30" radius would be considered a sharp curve on the prototype, requiring trains to slow to 15-20 MPH to go through. Very few (if any) folks have a layout where they can run 3 diesels and 220 ore cars like the CN/DMIR do, because they'd have the engines in one city, the end of the train in another, and the middle of the train would be in another city halfway between the other two!!
 

 

Right, so I'm trying to slim it all down to some unknown parameters and dimensions, and apply it to my layout, but still have it look as realistic as possible.

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Posted by Big Boy Forever on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 5:09 PM
 riogrande5761  Said:
 
My interpretation is same as others in this thread - selective compression is the mantra.
 

 

 

I have that book and have been reading it for a few months now. There is so much info in it, plus trying to design modules to take apart when I move with a track plan I like, that it is difficult to get what info I am looking for. Most of his plans are for permanent layouts. I have only found the term, "selective compression" one time so far in that book. How exactly to apply it to my specific circumstance is a challenge to put it mildly.

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 5:00 PM

Big Boy Forever

60 feet = 1 mile in HO.

30 feet = 1/2 mile

15 feet = 1/4 Mile

Prototype yards I've seen are 1 to 5 miles long.

HO Yard Length = Unrealistic ....(Unless you have a big room)

What Say You ?

 
I'd say it's exactly the same as everything else in model railroading. We reduce the size of things so they fit our space.
 
A "broad" HO curve of 30" radius would be considered a sharp curve on the prototype, requiring trains to slow to 15-20 MPH to go through. Very few (if any) folks have a layout where they can run 3 diesels and 220 ore cars like the CN/DMIR do, because they'd have the engines in one city, the end of the train in another, and the middle of the train would be in another city halfway between the other two!!
Stix
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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 2:50 PM

Big Boy Forever
 No, not really, that's your interpretation.

 
My interpretation is same as others in this thread - selective compression is the mantra.
 

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by Big Boy Forever on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:10 AM

Brunton

Here's one end of my major yard under construction:

Laurel Yard under construction

It's about 13 feet long. This is by far the most "railroady" model yard I've ever built, which I attribute to the tracks being long enough to hold a decent number of cars in each. I don't know the magic number of cars that makes this work, but I do know that it looks and feels "right," even though it's still not anywhere near prototype length.

 

How big is your train room?

What other features do you have on your pike?....i.e....mainline industries etc.?

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Posted by Pruitt on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:59 AM

Here's one end of my major yard under construction:

Laurel Yard under construction

It's about 13 feet long. This is by far the most "railroady" model yard I've ever built, which I attribute to the tracks being long enough to hold a decent number of cars in each. I don't know the magic number of cars that makes this work, but I do know that it looks and feels "right," even though it's still not anywhere near prototype length.

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Posted by Big Boy Forever on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:16 AM

riogrande5761

So in conclusion, you've alerted us to the fact that we can't realistically model a railroad yard.

I don't think you've popped anyones bubble!

 

 

No, not really, that's your interpretation.

 

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 9:57 AM

So in conclusion, you've alerted us to the fact that we can't realistically model a railroad yard.

I don't think you've popped anyones bubble!

 

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by Big Boy Forever on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 9:43 AM

steemtrayn
 
Phoebe Vet

 

 
Big Boy Forever

60 feet = 1 mile in HO.

30 feet = 1/2 mile

15 feet = 1/4 Mile

Prototype yards I've seen are 1 to 5 miles long.

HO Yard Length = Unrealistic ....(Unless you have a big room)

 

What Say You ?

 

 

 

Since I don''t have an indoor football field on which to model, I guess I will give up model railroading and change to model aircraft.  

 

 

 

Will you model the airports, too?

 

 

If I wanted an Airport on my layout to be realistic, it would be in a backdrop photo and that's it.

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 8:30 AM

 

I feel that the length of the yard tracks and also passing sidings are dependent on the length of the trains that you plan on running. And I am talking about a classification yard, not staging. The easiest and most efficient way a model yard operates is that the departing train takes all the cars on a particular yard track. (Yard tracks also hold only cars and not a complete train.) So if your trains are going to consist of 15 cars max, then the yard tracks should hold 15 cars each. As for the passing sidings, add to the 15 cars the length of one or two locomotives and a caboose (if you run them) and that can be the length of the shortest passing siding.

 

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by ACRR46 on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 7:30 AM

I always get a kick out of  reading the layout articles in MR where the owner says he runs trains of 20-30 cars on his layout and using the grid for the track plan find out his passing tracks and yards tracks will only hold about 10 cars max, and his indurtries about 2-3 cars

Frank

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Posted by steemtrayn on Friday, May 23, 2014 11:01 PM

Phoebe Vet

 

 
Big Boy Forever

60 feet = 1 mile in HO.

30 feet = 1/2 mile

15 feet = 1/4 Mile

Prototype yards I've seen are 1 to 5 miles long.

HO Yard Length = Unrealistic ....(Unless you have a big room)

 

What Say You ?

 

 

 

Since I don''t have an indoor football field on which to model, I guess I will give up model railroading and change to model aircraft.  

 

Will you model the airports, too?

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Posted by Big Boy Forever on Friday, May 23, 2014 4:08 PM

carl425

If you really want something to complain about, how about a scale budget? I wouldn't mine having 1/87th of the N&W's 1975 income to work with. Or would that be a cube root thing since it would require a big pile of money?

 

A used real SD-40 is about $80,000 to $100,000.

A used Athearn SD-40 is about $30 to $60 roughly.

Thats about $1,034 1/87 scale dollars.

Good thing hobby shops don't take 1/87 scale income.

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Posted by carl425 on Friday, May 23, 2014 12:18 PM

If you really want something to complain about, how about a scale budget? I wouldn't mine having 1/87th of the N&W's 1975 income to work with. Or would that be a cube root thing since it would require a big pile of money?

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, May 23, 2014 7:18 AM

BRAKIE

 

 
richhotrain

 

 

I wuz half hoping to see model yards not prototype yards.

Nice photos but,they don't help the OP find a solution.

 

They don't?   Oops - Sign

Alton Junction

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, May 23, 2014 6:49 AM

richhotrain

 

I wuz half hoping to see model yards not prototype yards.

Nice photos but,they don't help the OP find a solution.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, May 23, 2014 5:59 AM

Alton Junction

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, May 23, 2014 5:49 AM

Big Boy Forever
I'm somewhere in the middle myself trying to make compromises and make a pretty realistic layout within reasonable limitations in this case, a decent facsimilie of a prototype yard.

One thing I've notice yards that measure 8-10 feet seems to be more convincing then a short yard of 4-6 feet although those small yards work for outlaying yards near large industrial areas or a short line yard.

Another thing I've notice is some modelers seem to go out of their way to dwarf their yard with a super size engine servicing area which efficiently kills all realism unless  you're modeling a steam era engine and crew change point with a small yard for local industries.

The key to any yard is balance that will lead to believability.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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