60 feet = 1 mile in HO.
30 feet = 1/2 mile
15 feet = 1/4 Mile
Prototype yards I've seen are 1 to 5 miles long.
HO Yard Length = Unrealistic ....(Unless you have a big room)
What Say You ?
True. That's why we have to live with selective compression.
Have fun,
Richard
Big Boy Forever 60 feet = 1 mile in HO. 30 feet = 1/2 mile 15 feet = 1/4 Mile Prototype yards I've seen are 1 to 5 miles long. HO Yard Length = Unrealistic ....(Unless you have a big room) What Say You ?
First I don't worry about "scale miles" and here's why. Eyeball a 20 car cut at eye level and see how long it looks from the engine to the last car and eyeball a passing train at eye level runing at scale speeds and look how long it looks as it passes by.The normal helicopter view we use makes everything look small..
Even looking down my 10' board looks like a long distance for a HO man to walk..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Big Boy ForeverHO Yard Length = Unrealistic ....(Unless you have a big room)
No one has the room to scale the prototype down exactly, so those comparisons don't rule out having a yard. I'm not sure that I understand your point. Thousands of successful layouts have been built with yards that work well -- and almost without exception, none are nearly as long as real-life yards.
Just like yards, most real-life rail-served industries are huge, but compressed versions can work well on our layouts. Most of us cannot model full-length trains either (depending on the prototype), but our compressed versions can still be operated in a realistic fashion.
Bruce Petty's Trona Railway layout I posted in one of your other threads is one example among many. The industry at Searles is massively compressed, as is the SP (now UP) interchange yard. But because they are sized to each other and to the target train length, the layout can work well.
This modern-era N scale layout is another example. The yard and major industries are compressed from the real thing, along with train lengths. But one can still replicate many of the prototype’s activities.
Model railroad yards should be sized by the kind of work they do, the typical length of the trains planned for the layout, and other factors (including human factors). Just because they aren't the same to-scale length as their prototype inspirations doesn't mean that they can't provide realistic and satisfying operation, if that is what you are suggesting.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Then it will be realistic......and prototypical.
Rich
Alton Junction
cuyama The yard and major industries are compressed from the real thing, along with train lengths. But one can still replicate many of the prototype’s activities.
Yes..Everything on that N Scale layout seems to flow together and that is what IMHO makes a great layout.
Nothing choppy about that layout.
It's not just yard length.
There's also passing siding length.
No reason to have a 300 foot long yard if your passing sidings are 20'.
There will have to be some internal negotiations. What scale are you in? How big a space do you have? What kind of a railroad are you modeling (hey, interurbans don't generally need big yards)? How many passing sidings do you need/want? And more....
Myself, I've arbitrarily decided that a standard passing siding should be about 20' in HO. That's 'cause that'll take a typical full length passenger train. That would then imply a yard based on that 20' distance. That could mean something like an overall 35' yard length, what with ladders and run-arounds and such.
Ed
7j43k It's not just yard length. There's also passing siding length. No reason to have a 300 foot long yard if your passing sidings are 20'.
Based on what OP is contending, wouldn't a 20' passing siding be unrealistic?
What I say is "Welcome to modelling!"
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I'm just throwing it out there, and no doubt any master model railroaders here already are content with the compromises.
The "Selective Compression" idea measured against reality, and what a modeler can live with, is open to interpretation I think. But like the one poster here (richhotrain) said, "Make a 300 foot yard"...LOL..that's a good one.
This conundrum became apparent to me as I did a mockup of my future 12 foot yard, which just does not have the "Zip" of any real yard, and I was attempting to get other points of view on the scenario to see if there was any technique for a good compromise.
Big Boy Forever Yard Length---HO Scale
Despite the fact that we in the Great White North have "gone metric", a yard is still 36", and in HO, that's a little less than one-twentieth of a mile.
Big Boy Forever I'm just throwing it out there, and no doubt any master model railroaders here already are content with the compromises..... .....This conundrum became apparent to me as I did a mockup of my future 12 foot yard, which just does not have the "Zip" of any real yard, and I was attempting to get other points of view on the scenario to see if there was any technique for a good compromise.
I'm just throwing it out there, and no doubt any master model railroaders here already are content with the compromises.....
.....This conundrum became apparent to me as I did a mockup of my future 12 foot yard, which just does not have the "Zip" of any real yard, and I was attempting to get other points of view on the scenario to see if there was any technique for a good compromise.
Hi all
Well concidering the largest home layout I have seen the main line loop was one scale mile.
No chance of building a scale length yard of any real size not many can even build scale length station yards,
in the space they have avalable.
The only thing you can do is make sure your maximum length train fits in to the yard.
Unrealistic NO!! realisam / authenticaty can not be measured in feet and inches it is an asthetic thing so if it looks right and real it is.
regards John
richhotrain 7j43k It's not just yard length. There's also passing siding length. No reason to have a 300 foot long yard if your passing sidings are 20'. Based on what OP is contending, wouldn't a 20' passing siding be unrealistic? Rich
Oh, yeah.
But I was simply pointing out that he should also be aware of the concurrent problem of proper length sidings. Because what use are full length yards without full length sidings?
But, Rich, are we really sure what OP is contending?
Big Boy Forever What Say You ?
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Big Boy Forever The "Selective Compression" idea measured against reality, and what a modeler can live with, is open to interpretation I think. But like the one poster here (richhotrain) said, "Make a 300 foot yard"...LOL..that's a good one.
LOL
Glad you enjoyed it.
7j43k richhotrain 7j43k It's not just yard length. There's also passing siding length. No reason to have a 300 foot long yard if your passing sidings are 20'. Based on what OP is contending, wouldn't a 20' passing siding be unrealistic? Rich Oh, yeah. But I was simply pointing out that he should also be aware of the concurrent problem of proper length sidings. Because what use are full length yards without full length sidings? But, Rich, are we really sure what OP is contending? Ed
Good Morning Ed,
No, I am not sure we know what the OP is contending, if he is, in fact, contending anything at all.
I just think that this thread is more whimsical than serious.
Big Boy ForeverThe "Selective Compression" idea measured against reality, and what a modeler can live with, is open to interpretation I think.
Right.Reality such a useless word the we use in our hobby.
We see highly detailed trains running at Mach 5 around loops with way to tight curves,up/down grades at breakneck speeds and so forth as "reality" while we get bent out of shape over our too small yard,too short passing sidings for our way too short freight trains..
Ever notice how silly a "Big Boy" looks pulling a 12-15 car train or two or three modern SD80Macs pulling 12-15 cars?
"Reality" ends as soon as we turn on the lights in the layout room.
BRAKIE Right.Reality such a useless word the we use in our hobby. We see highly detailed trains running at Mach 5 around loops with way to tight curves,up/down grades at breakneck speeds and so forth as "reality" while we get bent out of shape over our too small yard,too short passing sidings for our way too short freight trains.. Ever notice how silly a "Big Boy" looks pulling a 12-15 car train or two or three modern SD80Macs pulling 12-15 cars? "Reality" ends as soon as we turn on the lights in the layout room.
I could't agree more on that!
I have to laugh at some modelers arguing about details or the engine is 3 SCALE inches too narrow/wide etc.
And these arguments on this and other Forums about such trivial stuff!
I was giving a clinic one time and an argument broke out about Operations and how one type was closer to the real thing vs another method.
I have had to bring order back to the group by stating "Boys we are PLAYING with TOY TRAINS"
Everything got real quiet! ;-)
BOB H - Clarion, PA
cmrproducts BRAKIE Right.Reality such a useless word the we use in our hobby. We see highly detailed trains running at Mach 5 around loops with way to tight curves,up/down grades at breakneck speeds and so forth as "reality" while we get bent out of shape over our too small yard,too short passing sidings for our way too short freight trains.. Ever notice how silly a "Big Boy" looks pulling a 12-15 car train or two or three modern SD80Macs pulling 12-15 cars? "Reality" ends as soon as we turn on the lights in the layout room. Larry I could't agree more on that! I have to laugh at some modelers arguing about details or the engine is 3 SCALE inches too narrow/wide etc. And these arguments on this and other Forums about such trivial stuff! I was giving a clinic one time and an argument broke out about Operations and how one type was closer to the real thing vs another method. I have had to bring order back to the group by stating "Boys we are PLAYING with TOY TRAINS" Everything got real quiet! ;-) BOB H - Clarion, PA
Bob, I have to agree with you and Larry.
We talk about "model" railroading, and some of us approach the level of rivet counters, but when all is said and done, we are grown men playing with toy trains. No other way to cut it.
Compromise of LION:
NYCT runs 10 car (600 foot trains) {on the IND/BMT : On the IRT that would be a 500 foot train}
LION buys subway cars in sets of four, but these look too short and were never run that way on LINE of LION.
LION runs 6 car trains (IRT cars = 300') and can stop at platforms 4' long (In people feet). This is about right, I can put stations far enough apart to look good (only the longest stretch has two stations on it)
Ten cars would just lookj too long on my layout and would require 8' long stations, which is a little overpowering.
LION thinks him has got it just right.
When I had a freight system, my max was about 12 40' coal cars. Even then I would have to double the train into the coal yard. (Let the yard engine spend the day futzing with those cars WITHOUT access to the main line.)
Now ewe go forth and make yours just right.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Since I don''t have an indoor football field on which to model, I guess I will give up model railroading and change to model aircraft. Is that the answer you were seeking, or were you just bored this morning?
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
richhotrainI just think that this thread is more whimsical than serious.
And I guess the biggest joke is on those of us who tried to offer useful ideas.
That is why the populaity of older eras stays with us, we can have closer to real layout in a world of 36' to 40' boxcars than a world of 89' autoracks and now the max autoracks at 145'. Compair a 36' to an autorack of 89' and you get about two and a half cars, you get the math.
Big Boy Forever...I was attempting to get other points of view on the scenario to see if there was any technique for a good compromise.
One compromise is to make the yard body tracks long enough to handle the longest block of cars you'll need. My layout is designed around trains of 20 50' cars, which may be composed of two or more blocks. If the longest yard tracks can accommodate a full train length they should look appropriate with the rest of the layout.
Rob Spangler
wp8thsub If the longest yard tracks can accommodate a full train length they should look appropriate with the rest of the layout.
I have notice -I'm sure others have too-yards of that size looks realistic since the yard appears much larger then it is..I think its a optical illusion of size or something along that line?
cuyama richhotrain I just think that this thread is more whimsical than serious. And I guess the biggest joke is on those of us who tried to offer useful ideas.
richhotrain I just think that this thread is more whimsical than serious.
I chuckle at threads that raise the problems of scale in our model terrains and the toy trains that we run on 'em. C'mon, guys....we all have to find some disbelief to suspend. If it isn't the highly unrealistic running gear on our locomotives that permit us to do 80 scale mph on 18" radius curves (about 100 feet, LOL!), with flanges that are 10" deep and about 10" thick...yeah, that's right... , it would be the "lateral motion devices" on those steamers where a Northern with scale 80" drivers can take those same ridiculously tight curves.
Then, there's the admittedly cheesy sounds on board. I like it because it helps to suspend the disbelief, but many wrinkle their noses.
Loopdy-loops, spaghetti bowls, puffballs, sawhorse legs showing, wires, HO scale people, it's all a set of decisions taken by the owner to help him/her to enjoy their toy trains.
So, with all that, if you wanna play yard, you gotta get a fascimile of one to fit in your space. It means a ladder with #4's and segments, maybe four if you're lucky, that can hold four or five NMRA hoppers.
If you really need more convincing, there's them that play with weighbills, car cards, timetables.
And on it goes...
Do RC aircraft really 'fly?'
Gotta agree with you, Crandell. As far as the OP's frustration, it brings me back to my Dream Layout, an exact track configuration from Dearborn Station at Polk Street in Chicago to Alton Junction, a 14 block stretch. In HO scale, that would be 106 feet. If I could only rent a facility with that much length !
selector I chuckle at threads that raise the problems of scale in our model terrains and the toy trains that we run on 'em. C'mon, guys....we all have to find some disbelief to suspend. If it isn't the highly unrealistic running gear on our locomotives that permit us to do 80 scale mph on 18" radius curves (about 100 feet, LOL!), with flanges that are 10" deep and about 10" thick...yeah, that's right... , it would be the "lateral motion devices" on those steamers where a Northern with scale 80" drivers can take those same ridiculously tight curves. Then, there's the admittedly cheesy sounds on board. I like it because it helps to suspend the disbelief, but many wrinkle their noses. Loopdy-loops, spaghetti bowls, puffballs, sawhorse legs showing, wires, HO scale people, it's all a set of decisions taken by the owner to help him/her to enjoy their toy trains. So, with all that, if you wanna play yard, you gotta get a fascimile of one to fit in your space. It means a ladder with #4's and segments, maybe four if you're lucky, that can hold four or five NMRA hoppers. If you really need more convincing, there's them that play with weighbills, car cards, timetables. And on it goes... Do RC aircraft really 'fly?'
You make some good points, that being said:
Actually, I was just trying to pick up a few pointers on making as realistic, "as is reasonably possible" in HO, a railroad yard from like minded individuals, and I did get several ideas from some here, so thanks.
There are as some modelers say the rivet counters, those who will not use Kadee couplers but prefer Sargents with no magnetic thingamajig that sort of looks like an air hose, and scale wheels with hand laid track, laser cut structures with stained scale lumber and photos of real mountains for backdrops.
On the other hand, you have those who don't paint their rails and use solenoid turnout machines next to the track, plasticville houses, grass mats and hand painted water color backdrops and are happy with that scenario for their layout.
I'm somewhere in the middle myself trying to make compromises and make a pretty realistic layout within reasonable limitations in this case, a decent facsimilie of a prototype yard.
Last time I looked at my local RC airfield, RC Aircraft do fly, especially nice are the 1/4 scale.
I guess you could also apply this for those of us that don't have a yard in the traditional sense, I use mutliple passing tracks to accomplish the same effect, so how long is long enough-one on my industries can accomidate 28 cars easily but can also go up to 30 max, nearby is a second industry that can accomidate 12 cars, thus this siding needs to be able to handle 42 cars not including turnouts, I arrived at my required length by expanding as required, extensive pre planning as to total space allocation was required before construction commenced.