Hey everyone. My fiance and I are buying a house and we have 4 bedrooms and no kids. So I'm filling one of them with trains. I model HO and space is tight. I think the room im wanting to build it in is 12x11. I'm wanting to build in bedroom 2 and have it against the wall maybe a dogbone with a helix to a second level. Any ideas or pointers would be greatly appreciated. I hope I can figure out the dimensions of the room to give better information.
A 12 by 11 ft. room is a nice space for a layout, but I have my doubts whether you will have enough room for a helix in it. A helix requires a fairly large radius to work safely - you should not go below 2ft. 6 inches. That´ll eat away over 5 by 5 ft. of your room.
It would be great to use BR #3 and #4, just take out the parting wall and closets. Still leaves one for a guest BR.
If you are left to use that #3, one problem w/ an around the wall plan is the jog for the bath linen closet.. I agree that a helix would not work,
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Dang I didn't know a helix had to be so big. Well I guess I will have to come up with something. I like the idea with bedroom 3 and 4, but the old lady will not go for that. The house is will be finished being built in Feb. so I have plenty of time to plan something out. What is another good way to get down to a second level? Do you think I could have a Track that runs down the back of the lay out that will come around on the second level? I have never built a 2 level layout or one that goes around the room. I always did 4'x8' before so I'm new to this kind of planning. Thanks for all the help!
The EL RR Do you think I could have a Track that runs down the back of the lay out that will come around on the second level? I have never built a 2 level layout or one that goes around the room. I always did 4'x8' before so I'm new to this kind of planning. Thanks for all the help!
Do you think I could have a Track that runs down the back of the lay out that will come around on the second level? I have never built a 2 level layout or one that goes around the room. I always did 4'x8' before so I'm new to this kind of planning. Thanks for all the help!
That´s called a nolix and certainly a valid alternative in tight spaces.
If you have never built a multi-deck layout before, may I suggest to do some reading?
Our host Kalmbach offers a book on designing and building a multi-deck layout - you can find it here:
Thank you for that. I didnt even think about looking for a book. lol. I just ordered it. Well with that I will start doing more researching. If there are anymore references you have I would appreciate it. Thanks again.
Since the house is still under construction is it too late for a small change?
If you could eliminate the closet in Bdrm 2 and the little "hall" closet, move the door to line up with the bathroom wall. Since it is not the primary bathroom, shelves over the back of the toilet could provide space for extra towels, etc. rather than having a whole closet. Would make your room a little bigger.
Good luck,
Richrd
Its really a great idea but the house is too far along in the process for that to be an option. The flooring is going in next week so its a little too hard to take out the wall. Thank you for the ideas tho.
Could you switch to N scale? It would give you more room for a better layout.
I started building an HO layout in a 13 by11 room and it was going to be really cramped. I now have a 10 by 24 foot space. I also have two levels and a no-lix. Here are a couple of photos where you can see the climb up.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
to echo earlier sentiments, getting a helix in there would be tough. I am currently building a layout in a similar sized room, and from an operational perspective, I think I am in for some great times. Its an interesting ISL, and a mainline for through traffic, with hidden staging so my trains 'go somewhere'.
I think you have plenty of room for a fun trainroom and layout.
The space you're in might be on the smaller side for a two decker. While you could probably fit one in, I suspect you'd lose as much to the climb up as you gain in the second deck (unless a helper grade is part of your ops plan).
One thing I'll differentiate from others. This looks like a smaller house with no basement. In that case, don't give up closets, or storage in any form. You can never have enough storage in a house and you're spouse will be greatful (and so will you when their stuff doesn't end up in the train room.) I have a similar space and her stuff has now migrated into the train room, across the floor so that I'm only working in half the room and yet she is still needing more.
Have the carpets been laid in that room? If you still want carpet over laminate or other, I'd suggest a tight pile indoor/ outdoor variety. The garage is not too far away for all the cutting for benchwork, so saw dust won't be that much a problem. The tighter pile carpets work out so much better that they clean easier and won't really loose screws and such in the pile.
Minor woodwork within the space can still be done, just cover the floor w/ large cardboard or masonite. I do this regularly and floor protection is always needed or my customers tend to get a bit peeved at me.
Hi EL,
I am so jealous. Not only do you have a nice space. But you have a great woman who is letting you have the front room. I am regulated to the basement by the furnace.
Anyways, are you a MRR subscriber? If so the track plan database can be a great place to start.
Here is an interesting layout that is kind of around the room with a helix in the middle. You could change this slightly to fit you room. You could also add a lift out to create a continuous loop. You could also modify the plan to fit your room better. In other words, look at any track plan as a starting point and adapt to your space and or needs.
http://mrr.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/trackplans/2010/mrp-k07_klondike-mines-.pdf
So read up and study and check out as many layouts as you can. Keep us posted on your track plan
Regards
Derek
I am using a "No-lix" on my plan, which is approx 9x13. There will be 10" separation between staging and "main" level, approx 2.25% grade.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
Can I throw out a contrary thought? We might remember being told in high school physics class that "a gas expands to fit the available space" but a model railroad doesn't have to.
Although the suggestion to consider N scale makes a good deal of sense, if it is to be HO I would explore HO layouts that are truly suited to the room you are considering (versus crammed and jammed into it, or punching out holes between rooms): a point to point, perhaps an L shape perhaps a U shape, perhaps even an E shape, but with a theme that really places an emphasis on detail, such as an industrial corridor with intense switching, or the sort of centralized rail service as one sometimes sees in some town/farming areas. I can tell you that if you really want to model scenes and structures (and rolling stock, and complex trackage) to the high level that we see in MR or GMR or RMC, even on a relatively small layout you are looking at a major time commitment BUT -- and this is the main point -- with a possibility of actually seeing accomplishment of goals rather than what can be a never ending project such as a large layout where quality often suffers due to sheer practicality issues. I have seen many large layouts stall -- or even sputter and fall limp. In fact my own is in danger of doing just that unless I stop getting distracted by all these darned entertaining YouTube videos.
A related issue to think about now is, just how many folks do you think you'd be running your trains with? Really big layouts without an operating session team you can rely on often sit gathering dust, and oddly enough I have seen large layouts where the owner ends up operating just one portion, often the very industrial switching district that I suggest for your entire layout theme.
I would forget features such as a helix or nolix or double decking, which somewhat ironically are space saving ideas best suited to a truly large space, although a modest lower level staging yard in the middle or at one end of your layout could open up some neat modeled interchange possibilities at far ends.
And I would make major alterations to upper level living spaces of homes only with the greatest care and thought. As my late mother once said about marriage "wed in haste; repent at leisure."
Without prying into your private life, if things go in a certain direction with you and your fiance you may be filling up some of those bedrooms with something other than trains in upcomng years. And that opens up the additional issue of possibly needing to close off your train rooms until curious hands have reached an age of obedience.
Do not abuse, test, or stretch what sounds like wonderful understanding and patience on the part of your fiance. A truly beautiful layout contained in a room of that size will keep you very very busy and she would never regret giving you that permission.
Dave Nelson
Since you're buying the house, if it were me, I'd remove the wall/closet between bedrooms 3 & 4. If you do most of your sawing in the garage, those rooms are closest to it.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
The EL RR Hey everyone. My fiance and I are buying a house and we have 4 bedrooms and no kids. I'm wanting to build in bedroom 2 ......
Hey everyone. My fiance and I are buying a house and we have 4 bedrooms and no kids. I'm wanting to build in bedroom 2 ......
If one of the bedrooms is to be used as a guest room, bedroom 2 might be the better option for guests since it offers a tad more privacy when walking from the bedroom to the bathroom. You could remove one of the closet walls between room 3 and 4 to give a walkway in between those rooms, which might be something you want to do anyway, even without trains, since to get from room 3 to 4 now requires a walk into the main room. To restore that removed closet wall in the future would only cost a few hundred dollars.
If I was going to use bedroom 2 for trains, one option would be to build a triangular shaped oval that runs into the closet and put a narrow shelf along the east wall for staging and an interchange.
You can build distance into your operating plan by simply running laps around the oval. I don't think its worth the trouble to build a multi level plan in that space.
- Douglas
Although it is unconventional, a number of layouts have been built with two (or more) decks that are physically unconnected. These may represent two separated locations or staging and operating patterns may be used to suggest a link between the decks.
I wrote about this concept in Model Railroad Planning 2008 ("Railroading in Paradise", multi-deck Oahu Railway HOn3 in 12'X12') and in the Layout Design SIG's Layout Design Journal #28; Spring 2003.
But if one has never built a model railroad before, a single deck mid-sized layout may provide plenty of interest and challenge -- if a good design in developed. For learning to design a layout, there is no better reference than John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Partly we've been focused on the double deck idea, but this room is also ideal sized for the San Jacinto concept Andy Sperandeo wrote years ago. While fascinating in it's own right for the citrus rush, the same concept could work for many parts of the county. It's the concept he proposes that key, not the specific track plan.
His San Jacinto plan works because the ops concept fits the available space and doesn't try to cram too much in. Plenty of room for scenary and detailed construction along with a prototype inspired ops concept.
jmbjmbPartly we've been focused on the double deck idea, but this room is also ideal sized for the San Jacinto concept Andy Sperandeo wrote years ago.
Additional comments on the San Jacinto District. I'm a big fan of this layout, but it's not for everyone. This would be for a modest one-or-two-train per day theme.
At somewhat the opposite end of the spectrum, my multi-deck/multi-pass design for the Clinchfield RR in HO in 11' 5" X 12' 5" will appear in Model Railroad Planning 2013. This winds 2.5 scale miles of mountain railroad into the spare room without a helix, but requires multiple crossings of the door and is definitely a demanding project.
So there are a wide variety of approaches, themes and degrees of scope that will fit in the Original Poster's space.
I have a couple of observations here, which I'll share in no particular order.
First of all, this looks like a build-to-plan house. If so, be wary of "minor" changes, like moving walls and closets. They will likely be at a huge price premium.
Secondly, what are your future plans? When you say, my fiancee and I have no kids, do you mean "not now" (which is pretty common) or "not ever"? My wife and I bought a lovely 2400 square foot, 3 bedroom house when we moved to CT -- thinking "one bedroom for us, one for our son, and one for future child number two", giving up a dedicated guest bedroom right away. Now, two children later, we're already packed tight, and it's really fun when we decide to have large family gatherings like Thanksgiving! Do yourself and your marriage a favor and make DARN SURE you will never need that guest bedroom for a guest bedroom. Unless your fiancee is as in to model trains as you are, this will eventually become a source of conflict. Your only solutions at that point will be to expand the house, move, or rip out your layout (and moving will also involve some degree of ripping up your layout). I know everything seems happy and loving right now, but do yourself a favor and give some long, hard thought to your future family arrangements.
In light of that, what about using the garage (or part of it) as a layout space? Since two sides of the garage border on the house, it wouldn't be hard or expensive to insulate it. This would also give you more space for a multi-level layout.
Finally, I have to agree with those who say that 12x11 is enough space for a good-sized layout, it's well short of what is available to those folks with true model railroad empires. You may need to downsize your plans and / or ambitions.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I want to thank all of you for the opinions and comments. I am considering using one side of the garage for more space. The Mrs. (to be) loves trains and got to see a little bit of the work i can do on them on an 8x8 I was building. I tore it down to start packing for the move. I still have a lot of time to plan this out right and make sure that it is moveable in the future. We are planning on living here for about 15 years and then moving up north. I will have to talk to her about it and see what she says about the idea. If using one side of the garage, is it better suited for a multi-level layout. I only want 2 levels. Thanks everyone!
She may love trains, but may not want trains everywhere!
I would NOT choose the garage as s place for trains...here's why: It is harder to keep clean as dust and etc will be more in the garage than in a cozy bedroom. If the car gets parked there too, it WILL be dusty. Also, The temperature will be more stable in the house as it is climate controlled. THAT will be better on you and the trains!!!!
I understand totally the "not an option" of removing the wall and closets..it has far reaching circumstances. It changes your home's layout and tax structure. It changes resale value {not everyone wants to put in a MRR!}.
Unless you are both way beyond childbearing years...then children are SURE to enter in before 15 years is up! SO be aware you may have to give up your layout room, after all.
I second, third, fourth the idea of just having 2 levels with separate {not connected} layouts. It gives you a chance to have : 2 eras, 2 RR prototypes, 2 differing RRs {proto or free lanced}, 2 differing operations {roundy dogbone and switching for Instance}. SO you have many more freedoms that a connected bi-level don't necessarily afford.
I would also think about using #3 as it has a shorter closet door, but if she prefers {or you do} #2, then go for it and be happy!
Good luck and be blessed that you have such a space for a grand layout.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Just a few more thoughts:
A garage might not be the right place for a layout, although it is often done. If you have (and it seems that you do) a spare room you can use, you are much better of building your layout in this room, than in an either too hot or too cold or even humid garage. Don´t forget that you will need a place for the "dirty" jobs as well, cutting lumber and painting is better done not inside the house, if you want to stay at peace with the missus. Guess how I learned that
The EL RR Hey everyone. My fiance and I are buying a house and we have 4 bedrooms and no kids. So I'm filling one of them with trains. I model HO and space is tight. I think the room im wanting to build it in is 12x11. I'm wanting to build in bedroom 2 and have it against the wall maybe a dogbone with a helix to a second level. Any ideas or pointers would be greatly appreciated. I hope I can figure out the dimensions of the room to give better information.
Okay here is what I would do........
Take out the second bathroom between bedroom 2 and 3 and all closet space from bedrooms 2,3, and 4.
Relocate the entry and foyer to the nook.
Connect the far wall of bedroom 4 with the garage.......actually scratch that, extend the garage wall out to the far side of bedroom 4......then relocate the second bathroom to the far side of the garage.
Should be plenty of space for the train layout with room to spare.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
I'm just curious what that square is, floating off in space north of the WIC.
Anyhow, if it was me, I'd pick Bedroom 4 if only because it looks to have the smallest closet, and therefore is the least useful of the three bedrooms to actually serve as a bedroom. I know this from growing up as the kid with the smallest closet in the house.
I also would pick bedroom 4, but for the reason of having 2 daughters, and being as it is the only bedroom without access to any of the bathrooms. Having lived through the arguments of bathroom time and such, easy bathroom access is by far one of the best gifts a house can give a father. Also it is closer to the garage with less traffic hauling things through the middle of the house.
JW
Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm.
NittanyLion I'm just curious what that square is, floating off in space north of the WIC. Anyhow, if it was me, I'd pick Bedroom 4 if only because it looks to have the smallest closet, and therefore is the least useful of the three bedrooms to actually serve as a bedroom. I know this from growing up as the kid with the smallest closet in the house.
Looks to me that 3 and 4 have exactly the same size closets, but since the room entrance doesn;t project into the room, 3 woul dbe easier to work with for a layout.
4 I'd repurpose to an office or something since it's the only one without direct access to a bathroom. Leaving 2 as a guest bedroom.
Use the closet corner of 4 (the the doors off the closet) as a workbench area. Couple of tracks through the wall from room 3's closet could extend over the workbench and be staging. That way when you move out and patch the hole it will be nearly invisible inside closets.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Before the economy tanked most sold the house in 5 years or so. I would think twice before removing walls.
My layout is in similar sized room. None of the benchwork is attached to the wall.
Bob
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There seems to be an aversion to my suggestion of removing walls. If or when you think about reselling the house, walls can be framed back in.