Paul_in_GA Great advice Stein. And thanks. I know this may sound dumb but HOW does one measure radius? Do I need PI? Is it measured 22" or 20" or whatever ACROSS the track? I mean across the widest point? How do I know the size? Do I draw a 20" circle and halve it? I'm sure it's simple math like that isn't it?
Great advice Stein. And thanks. I know this may sound dumb but HOW does one measure radius? Do I need PI? Is it measured 22" or 20" or whatever ACROSS the track? I mean across the widest point? How do I know the size? Do I draw a 20" circle and halve it? I'm sure it's simple math like that isn't it?
Radius is measured from the center of the circle to the center of the track (midway between the two rails rails). Diameter is the distance from one side of the circle through the center to the opposite side of the circle. To draw e.g. a quarter circle of radius 24", you can use a cardboard or plywood template. Put a nail at the center point of the circle, fasten a string to the nail, fasten a pencil at the 24" mark, keep string taut, draw curve. Cut along curve, place template on bench, mark track curve using template.
Smile, Stein
Based upon his lack of experience, I say that the removable sections will do him in.
Rich
Alton Junction
steinjr Paul_in_GA Thanks Stein! Someone told me that with the U23B loco I don't really need 22" radius curves, the LHS guy told me that. The rule of the thumb is that you need a curve radius of about 2.5 - 3 times the length of your longest rolling stock (engine or car) to be certain that cars or engines won't derail on curves. For it to look good (especially when looking at a curve from the outside - i.e. a curve that swings towards you instead of away from you), the recommendation is about 4 times the length. For 8" long locos or cars, that is about 24". In general, you do not want to go for smaller curve radius than you are forced to accept. Even the gentlest curves possible in a your typical spare bedroom layout tends to be way sharper than what the real railroad would normally use. So I wouldn't recommend pushing your minimum curve radius down to an absolute minimum the train can get around. Especially not if your main goal is to create a layout where you want to admire longish trains running through mountain scenery more than a layout where small switchers will do street running in a cramped urban environment to spot single cars at industries. But your layout, your decisions. Just do a mockup and test how it looks to you. If it doesn't work, just redo whatever doesn't work - it is no disaster. Change is typical of model railroad layouts :-) Smile, Stein
Paul_in_GA Thanks Stein! Someone told me that with the U23B loco I don't really need 22" radius curves, the LHS guy told me that.
Thanks Stein! Someone told me that with the U23B loco I don't really need 22" radius curves, the LHS guy told me that.
The rule of the thumb is that you need a curve radius of about 2.5 - 3 times the length of your longest rolling stock (engine or car) to be certain that cars or engines won't derail on curves. For it to look good (especially when looking at a curve from the outside - i.e. a curve that swings towards you instead of away from you), the recommendation is about 4 times the length. For 8" long locos or cars, that is about 24". In general, you do not want to go for smaller curve radius than you are forced to accept. Even the gentlest curves possible in a your typical spare bedroom layout tends to be way sharper than what the real railroad would normally use.
So I wouldn't recommend pushing your minimum curve radius down to an absolute minimum the train can get around. Especially not if your main goal is to create a layout where you want to admire longish trains running through mountain scenery more than a layout where small switchers will do street running in a cramped urban environment to spot single cars at industries.
But your layout, your decisions. Just do a mockup and test how it looks to you. If it doesn't work, just redo whatever doesn't work - it is no disaster. Change is typical of model railroad layouts :-) Smile, Stein
Thanks, Paul
steinjr steinjr Paul_in_GA Okay, here are the dimension of my room. Anything important about the room and it's use not shown on the drawing? Could the office desk and chair be moved left, much closer to the closet? Smile, Stein I mean something conceptually roughly along these lines - moving the office desk and chair left (and rotating them) to create more space for a layout: The layout is not a design, btw - just a conceptual sketch showing one of the ways a a layout with 24" radius curves possibly could be fitted into your room. Here is another way a layout with 24" minimum radius could possibly be fitted into the room - this would take a layout mounted high enough that it could run above stuff on the desk and making the removable section less of a hassle when/if you wanted to duck under it instead of removing it: Neither of these are a very complete design - they are just rough illustrations of how you possibly could fit a layout with reasonable curves into the room by thinking outside rectangular tables (and possibly moving the desk) Smile, Stein
steinjr Paul_in_GA Okay, here are the dimension of my room. Anything important about the room and it's use not shown on the drawing? Could the office desk and chair be moved left, much closer to the closet? Smile, Stein
Paul_in_GA Okay, here are the dimension of my room.
Okay, here are the dimension of my room.
Anything important about the room and it's use not shown on the drawing? Could the office desk and chair be moved left, much closer to the closet?
I mean something conceptually roughly along these lines - moving the office desk and chair left (and rotating them) to create more space for a layout:
The layout is not a design, btw - just a conceptual sketch showing one of the ways a a layout with 24" radius curves possibly could be fitted into your room.
Here is another way a layout with 24" minimum radius could possibly be fitted into the room - this would take a layout mounted high enough that it could run above stuff on the desk and making the removable section less of a hassle when/if you wanted to duck under it instead of removing it:
Neither of these are a very complete design - they are just rough illustrations of how you possibly could fit a layout with reasonable curves into the room by thinking outside rectangular tables (and possibly moving the desk) Smile, Stein
Your designs are amazing, I know they're not an exact plan as you said but I like it. I really appreciate you taking your time to do this. I can easily move the desk, I measured last night. I like what you did, it's cool!
Paulus Jas Hi, i am the Paul from the Netherlands who still has concerns about your measureemnts. Looking at the first drawing and the photo you showed us the distance between your desk and the 7 ft long part of your plan is just half a foot. Since your desk is about 5"7 or 67", the remaining walkway between them should be 30", not the 6 inches as is visible on your first drawing. You should consider height as well. Most model railroads are operated standing up, trains running at armpit height. Since your view on modeling a railroad is rather limited to a very scenic issues, it might be interesting to learn more about real railroads and how to model them. Track Planning For Realistic Operation by the late John Armstrong could be a great investment. 102 Realistic Track Plans might be onther great buy. Don't look at the size of these layouts only; the kind of scenery, if they are loaded or not with tracks and switching oppertunities are worth some consideration. Smile Paul
Hi,
i am the Paul from the Netherlands who still has concerns about your measureemnts.
Looking at the first drawing and the photo you showed us the distance between your desk and the 7 ft long part of your plan is just half a foot. Since your desk is about 5"7 or 67", the remaining walkway between them should be 30", not the 6 inches as is visible on your first drawing.
You should consider height as well. Most model railroads are operated standing up, trains running at armpit height.
Since your view on modeling a railroad is rather limited to a very scenic issues, it might be interesting to learn more about real railroads and how to model them. Track Planning For Realistic Operation by the late John Armstrong could be a great investment.
102 Realistic Track Plans might be onther great buy. Don't look at the size of these layouts only; the kind of scenery, if they are loaded or not with tracks and switching oppertunities are worth some consideration.
Smile
Paul
Hi Paulus, the drawing I posted made with a drawing program is accurate. Also I plan on buying both of those books. Thatnk you for your help from the Netherlands too! I have always wanted to visit there.
Texas Zepher Paul_in_GABy the way the locos I have are an Atlas CSX U23B anf a Bachman GE 44 ton Switcher. A U23B is not a locomotive that I would have expected to require 22" curves. A U23C maybe. Of course one always wants curves as large as curves as possible but if you stick with the original space I think you can drop to 20" or 18" curves. A room doughnut layout should make larger corners much easier to incorporate.
Paul_in_GABy the way the locos I have are an Atlas CSX U23B anf a Bachman GE 44 ton Switcher.
A room doughnut layout should make larger corners much easier to incorporate.
Cool! That's good news because someone told me I'd need larger turns. Great, then that makes things a little easier doesn't it? Thanks a lot for you help.
CTValleyRR Paul_in_GA Paulus Jas Hi, looking at the pic and drawings, could it be your room is only 13 ft wide? Paul Thanks for replying. I just remeasured it and it's 14' wide by 14 1/2 long. The OP's drawing is not to scale (how else could the 30" -- or 2' 6") be only half the size of the 2' 3" wall space right next to it! But Paul (the one in GA), while there are lots of people willing to HELP you design your layout, no one is going to just up and do it for you (except for the few professionals here, who will want to be paid. So maybe one of us will put your actual room dimensions into a CAD program and we can start working with it. In the mean time, you've given us very little to work with, other than some real basics. Do you want the elevate track connected to the lower (which will greatly complicate things because in addition to all the real estate taken up by curves, you will need inclines with a reasonable incline to them). Can you set your railroad in time and space for us. I think you said you have a CONRAIL loco, so are you in the Northeastern US? What approximate year (Conrail covers roughly 1975 to 1999. What do you want your railroad to do? Haul coal? Intermodal trailers? Wood products? Is there a specific scene you want to model? How about the balance between real operations and continuous running? As you can see, there's a fair bit of groundwork to do before you start laying track.... even digital track. So while we're nailing down the room layout, start thinking about these other aspects of your layout.
Paul_in_GA Paulus Jas Hi, looking at the pic and drawings, could it be your room is only 13 ft wide? Paul Thanks for replying. I just remeasured it and it's 14' wide by 14 1/2 long.
Paulus Jas Hi, looking at the pic and drawings, could it be your room is only 13 ft wide? Paul
looking at the pic and drawings, could it be your room is only 13 ft wide?
Thanks for replying. I just remeasured it and it's 14' wide by 14 1/2 long.
The OP's drawing is not to scale (how else could the 30" -- or 2' 6") be only half the size of the 2' 3" wall space right next to it!
But Paul (the one in GA), while there are lots of people willing to HELP you design your layout, no one is going to just up and do it for you (except for the few professionals here, who will want to be paid. So maybe one of us will put your actual room dimensions into a CAD program and we can start working with it.
In the mean time, you've given us very little to work with, other than some real basics. Do you want the elevate track connected to the lower (which will greatly complicate things because in addition to all the real estate taken up by curves, you will need inclines with a reasonable incline to them). Can you set your railroad in time and space for us. I think you said you have a CONRAIL loco, so are you in the Northeastern US? What approximate year (Conrail covers roughly 1975 to 1999. What do you want your railroad to do? Haul coal? Intermodal trailers? Wood products? Is there a specific scene you want to model? How about the balance between real operations and continuous running?
As you can see, there's a fair bit of groundwork to do before you start laying track.... even digital track.
So while we're nailing down the room layout, start thinking about these other aspects of your layout.
I'm sorry about my measurements but it is exactly 14.5 feet long by 14 feet wide.
Entrance door is 30" wide.
Closet door is 30" wide.
Window is 30" wide.
I can provide more detailed info if needed and yes, I would be willing to pay someone, depends on how expensive it would be.
As for your questions:
I'd like the elevated connected to the lower, yes.
I have no real desire to set it in time or space, just a fantasy railroad that will haul passengers to a station, haul freight cars to businesses, and haul some tankers. But this can be changed along the way as I don't really care about modeling real life, I just want something that looks cool. I'm not interested in real operations yet either. As for a scene, all I really want is a tunnel, a bridge, mountains with stone faces, trees, maybe a small pond, and some small businesses and houses. I really do appreciate all the help I can get.
By the way the locos I have are an Atlas CSX U23B anf a Bachman GE 44 ton Switcher. Both DCC.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
steinjr Paul_in_GA I have a question about those Tortoise machines. If you use the Woodland Scenics foam system and it's elevated how do you install it? Do you dig out the foam or is there a long extension you put on the Tortoise machine? It depends on how you do the benchwork and subroadbed. Using WS risers and inclines doesn't mean that you have to go all WS - that is a pretty expensive route. You can e.g use styrofoam (the pink or blue kind used for ground insulation) for the main part of the landscape, or use a hollow core door as the ground level, or cookie cutter plywood shapes fastened to vertical risers fasten to a frame underneath, or mix and match different types of subroadbed and scenery techniques. Switch machines can be glued to foam, or you can cut a hole in the foam and glue a piece of plywood into the hole to screw the switch machine to. There is even switch machines (for Peco brand turnouts/track switches) that clip on to the underside of the turnout with small metal tabs, so they can hang down in a hole you cut in the foam or plywood. Smile, Stein
Paul_in_GA I have a question about those Tortoise machines. If you use the Woodland Scenics foam system and it's elevated how do you install it? Do you dig out the foam or is there a long extension you put on the Tortoise machine?
I have a question about those Tortoise machines. If you use the Woodland Scenics foam system and it's elevated how do you install it? Do you dig out the foam or is there a long extension you put on the Tortoise machine?
It depends on how you do the benchwork and subroadbed. Using WS risers and inclines doesn't mean that you have to go all WS - that is a pretty expensive route.
You can e.g use styrofoam (the pink or blue kind used for ground insulation) for the main part of the landscape, or use a hollow core door as the ground level, or cookie cutter plywood shapes fastened to vertical risers fasten to a frame underneath, or mix and match different types of subroadbed and scenery techniques.
Switch machines can be glued to foam, or you can cut a hole in the foam and glue a piece of plywood into the hole to screw the switch machine to.
There is even switch machines (for Peco brand turnouts/track switches) that clip on to the underside of the turnout with small metal tabs, so they can hang down in a hole you cut in the foam or plywood. Smile, Stein
Beautiful! That's the kind of help I need. Thanks a lot. I want to use the WS system but I can buy the cheaper foam at Home Depot or Lowe's and modify as I go along. Cool so far.
Paul_in_GA fifedog Howdy Paul. If I were a bettin' man, you want a model rr that you can sit at your desk while looking up and seeing your trains running. Sounds like you have the skills. Now you just have to develop a "vision". What would please you while perched behind that desk? What era? What region? Rural or metropolitan? Freelance or based on a prototype? For starters, I'd make the layout height even with the desk top. And the visible fascia and benchwork like furniture. I would steer you towards forgoing all the notched out areas, give it clean continuous layout edges, and place two well thought out pop-outs or openings (both of which could be "shielded" from your viewpoint). Not really sitting at my desk but I need the desk in my office. The vision thing is correct, mine is freelance, at least one elevated track, one tunnel, and mountains with rock face walls. Some buildings and maybe a small pond. I am about to post a drawing of my room with measurements. I really appreciate you taking the time to help.
fifedog Howdy Paul. If I were a bettin' man, you want a model rr that you can sit at your desk while looking up and seeing your trains running. Sounds like you have the skills. Now you just have to develop a "vision". What would please you while perched behind that desk? What era? What region? Rural or metropolitan? Freelance or based on a prototype? For starters, I'd make the layout height even with the desk top. And the visible fascia and benchwork like furniture. I would steer you towards forgoing all the notched out areas, give it clean continuous layout edges, and place two well thought out pop-outs or openings (both of which could be "shielded" from your viewpoint).
Howdy Paul. If I were a bettin' man, you want a model rr that you can sit at your desk while looking up and seeing your trains running.
Sounds like you have the skills. Now you just have to develop a "vision". What would please you while perched behind that desk? What era? What region? Rural or metropolitan? Freelance or based on a prototype?
For starters, I'd make the layout height even with the desk top. And the visible fascia and benchwork like furniture. I would steer you towards forgoing all the notched out areas, give it clean continuous layout edges, and place two well thought out pop-outs or openings (both of which could be "shielded" from your viewpoint).
Not really sitting at my desk but I need the desk in my office. The vision thing is correct, mine is freelance, at least one elevated track, one tunnel, and mountains with rock face walls. Some buildings and maybe a small pond. I am about to post a drawing of my room with measurements. I really appreciate you taking the time to help.
Paul,
Since I am guessing you are in Georgia, i would check out the HOG layout as a good starting point, you would need to adjust it slightly with only 7' on the one side. but could expand it on the other.
The full blog is here:
http://hogrr.blogspot.com/
Chris
Check out my railroad at: Buffalo and Southwestern
Photos at:Flicker account
YouTube:StellarMRR YouTube account
jpduffy3 One observation from someone who is just getting back into the hobby after a 50 year hiatus: perhaps it would be wise to start with a small shelf switching layout just to get familiar with things. If you make the switching layout modular, you can experiment for a while and then incorporate it into a larger layout once you have gained some experience and have a better idea of what you want. It could take a long time building a layout as big as the one you have indicated here, and, until you get it well underway, it would be very difficult to have any meaningful operations. On the other hand, with a small switching layout, you could have a working layout that you could add on to, if you wished, as time passes and you want to build something bigger. I am building a modular switching DCC HO layout on an 18" by 66" plywood base. It has 6 Atlas code 83 switches with Tortoise switch machines and powered frogs, some Atlas snap track as well as flex track, a control panel (to which I plan to add LEDs at some point), a plug-in port for an additional throttle to operate two engines at once, etc. There are six large DPM and Walthers structures, many smaller ones, two roads, and a fair amount of scenery and other details. After about 18 months of continuous work an hour or two at a time, it is still not finished, but I can get a lot of fun running switching operations, improving buildings (such as by adding interiors and exterior signage and details), adding more scenery, etc., and generally experimenting with new and different techniques. And, in the process, learning again how to do things, sometimes by making mistakes that I later have to correct either by undoing or modifying what was done. At some point, I am going to add modules at either end, but I want to get the first module a bit more finished before I start to do that. But, all the time, I am running trains and getting a great deal of satisfaction from what I am doing.
One observation from someone who is just getting back into the hobby after a 50 year hiatus: perhaps it would be wise to start with a small shelf switching layout just to get familiar with things. If you make the switching layout modular, you can experiment for a while and then incorporate it into a larger layout once you have gained some experience and have a better idea of what you want.
It could take a long time building a layout as big as the one you have indicated here, and, until you get it well underway, it would be very difficult to have any meaningful operations. On the other hand, with a small switching layout, you could have a working layout that you could add on to, if you wished, as time passes and you want to build something bigger.
I am building a modular switching DCC HO layout on an 18" by 66" plywood base. It has 6 Atlas code 83 switches with Tortoise switch machines and powered frogs, some Atlas snap track as well as flex track, a control panel (to which I plan to add LEDs at some point), a plug-in port for an additional throttle to operate two engines at once, etc. There are six large DPM and Walthers structures, many smaller ones, two roads, and a fair amount of scenery and other details. After about 18 months of continuous work an hour or two at a time, it is still not finished, but I can get a lot of fun running switching operations, improving buildings (such as by adding interiors and exterior signage and details), adding more scenery, etc., and generally experimenting with new and different techniques. And, in the process, learning again how to do things, sometimes by making mistakes that I later have to correct either by undoing or modifying what was done.
At some point, I am going to add modules at either end, but I want to get the first module a bit more finished before I start to do that. But, all the time, I am running trains and getting a great deal of satisfaction from what I am doing.
Hi JP, I can understand where you're coming from. As for the time to build it I have time, I am retired. I don't think I want to do operations if what you mean by that is when people simulate real life train movement. I just want something that looks good and I can run trains on. That may come later.
I understand that this takes a while to do which is okay, I have been slowly buying just about everything, you name it I buy it when I can. This way I'll have it when I need it. I can take my time on it, I'm not in a rush. Just need layout help.
richhotrain I'm not so sure about a small shelf switching layout for a newbie, but then I'm not so sure about a newbie starting with a WS foam system, an elevated track, a tunnel, and lots of rock walls either. IMHO, what the OP ought to start with a small layout with a continuous loop and a few turnouts off the main line to spurs. Get familiar with track laying, turnout operation, DCC, throttle commands, etc. Then, do some basic landscaping, ground cover, ballast, trees and bushes. The build a structure or two. Then, progress rock walls, elevated tracks, etc. The OP is starting off with a set of goals that are too lofty and bound to prove frustrating. Just my thoughts. Rich
I'm not so sure about a small shelf switching layout for a newbie, but then I'm not so sure about a newbie starting with a WS foam system, an elevated track, a tunnel, and lots of rock walls either.
IMHO, what the OP ought to start with a small layout with a continuous loop and a few turnouts off the main line to spurs.
Get familiar with track laying, turnout operation, DCC, throttle commands, etc.
Then, do some basic landscaping, ground cover, ballast, trees and bushes.
The build a structure or two.
Then, progress rock walls, elevated tracks, etc.
The OP is starting off with a set of goals that are too lofty and bound to prove frustrating.
Just my thoughts.
I think I'm up to the task. I have an extensive electronics background on complex aircraft avionics systems, (DCC), was a woodworker for forty years as a hobby, (benchwork), can restore old Corvettes, I can build or fix anything and have zillions of tools. I also have a couple of those Woodland Scenics learning kits coming. I have the WS DVD and books. What I really need is detailed plans to work from as that's what I'm used to working with. I also have a lot of determination when I set my mind to something. I learn everything I can by reading and especially all the knowledge from experienced people here, ESPECIALLY from you people. Your experience is worth its weight in gold!
steinjr Paul_in_GA Now THIS was what I was looking for. Can I elevate it using the WS foam system? I have the WS books and the DVD on how to do it. Should I build it off the wall a little for access? This is very helpful and I very much appreciate it! See the link that says "Quote" under the text of the message you are replying to?. Click on it before you write your reply, and it quotes whoever you are responding to, so it is possible to guess what "THIS" might refer to. Smile, Stein
Paul_in_GA Now THIS was what I was looking for. Can I elevate it using the WS foam system? I have the WS books and the DVD on how to do it. Should I build it off the wall a little for access? This is very helpful and I very much appreciate it!
Now THIS was what I was looking for. Can I elevate it using the WS foam system? I have the WS books and the DVD on how to do it. Should I build it off the wall a little for access? This is very helpful and I very much appreciate it!
See the link that says "Quote" under the text of the message you are replying to?. Click on it before you write your reply, and it quotes whoever you are responding to, so it is possible to guess what "THIS" might refer to.
Ah, I see now. Thanks for that tip! This is different forum software than what I'm used to.
Thank you SO much. I will create a drawing of the entire room and post it.
The reason I need 22" is because my LHS guy said because of the engine I have bought is an Atlas #8260 U23B locomotive, CSX - Road #3243. I also bought a smaller engine, a Bachman GE 44 ton switcher loco item # 62209. Both have DCC modules in them.
So if I want to run the big engine I would need 22" right? Dunno about all this yet.
Texax, thanks for that explanation. I really appreciate it. I see about pinching it so I can reach it. Good idea. Thanks.
Then build a structu,re or two.
Then, progress to rock walls, elevated tracks, etc.