Wasn't Allen McClelland's V&O, both old & new, single track with passing sidings?????
CPR's Belleville Sub is single track with passing sidings of various lengths.
It's your railway, do what makes sense & fun to you.
My railway is single tracked. I prefer it that way as yes there will be bottle necks of traffic where my dispatcher is going to be his/her toes.
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
hi gentlemen,
the first time i read about this issue is probably more then ten years ago. In Model Railroad Planning, a layout built by Jeff Wilson modeling the joint track of several class 1 RR's along the Ohio River, was presented. Followed a year later by a short message why he had given up the project. It also was a point to point railroad, with a rather "short" mainline. Beside having to build over 10,000 trees he became aware of operational, money and time issues. He felt he was ending up with huge staging area's; with lots of cash and time involved by building or buying numerous prototypical correct and famous passenger trains. All that ado for a few minutes of fun, for the very short time it took his hot-shots to blast through between the staging area's.
Not even 5 minutes of love for 25 years in jail, Jerry Lee Lewis made a song about it.
When you are after building a busy double track mainline, with huge engines and long trains, a loop to loop design or a continuous run probably is the better choice. On such a railroad the way-freight or local will need a playground completely independent from the main; so yards will become pretty large indeed . By doing more then one lap or using the same train "more" times during a session the balance between staging and the visible part will be more satisfying.
With a point to point system, you will need to find ways to keep the pace and the number of trains down, by giving switching duties to the through-trains or/and to have them wait in sidings. The length of these long trains however might cause a severe design problem. The question remains if your layout will still be a believable model of the Pocahontas division of the N&W.
What seems to be your big love for a real railroad, maybe due to the awesome pics by O.W. Link, is not necessarily the one that makes you happy as a model for the next decades. You are facing some difficult decisions.
Smile
Paul
Texas Zepher Just because one builds a double track main line does not necessarily mean it needs to be operated as a double track main line. For certain operating sessions just make portions of the double track closed (or even make certain they are closed by parking MOW equipment or some such thing on them). That way you can operate as a single track mainline. The best of both worlds.
Just because one builds a double track main line does not necessarily mean it needs to be operated as a double track main line. For certain operating sessions just make portions of the double track closed (or even make certain they are closed by parking MOW equipment or some such thing on them). That way you can operate as a single track mainline. The best of both worlds.
Well said. That is a great idea with the parked MOW equipment. Or just a string of freight cars parked temporarily on one of the main lines.
Rich
Alton Junction
Aikidomaster First, I am certain that this is not the first time this has been discussed. But, I would like to hear from folks about the subject (possibly again). If you think that I am beating a dead horse, ............ Please, let me know of your experiences and thoughts.
First, I am certain that this is not the first time this has been discussed. But, I would like to hear from folks about the subject (possibly again). If you think that I am beating a dead horse, ............
Please, let me know of your experiences and thoughts.
Gidday Craig, As long as you have made sure the horse is actually dead !!!
Seriously as far as I'm concerned you have legitimate concerns / thoughts that you require opinions on, this topic was discussed here not that long ago,
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/203807/2228214.aspx#2228214
but unless you were going to resurrect it or "hijack it", I don't see why there should be any negative comments for you starting your thread, besides it gives the opportunity for others offer "new" opinions.
As I said in that thread MY preference was having a predominately single track main with passing sidings but that I also wanted "a bob each way' by having a double tracked "helper district.
"The engineer enjoys being the train crew on his train - conductor, fireman, engineer all in one person. Typically, this person enjoys running way freights so he can do switching along the route. Engine servicing before and at the end of the run are often important items for the engineer. Single track main is often better suited to the engineer so that he has to periodically clear the main for higher priority trains. Designing a layout to sit an engineer is more difficult than it may seem. If running a train is too easy, the layout is boring. If the obstacles become too difficult, frustration sets in. And the thresholds may change over time as the engineer gains operating experience." Fred W
From Fred Ws post, I would have to say that I definitely tend towards "The Engineer".The layout I get to operate on from time to time is single tracked, but also caters for "The Spectator" in that they generally run the express passenger or "hot shot" freights "through " the layout.
"If you are to be using a card or similar computer generated switching system, will a single track cause a bottle neck? This is important as you don't want to punish your operators. There is a fine line between prototypical operation and frustrations of being backed up waiting for yard access". Bob, Boise Nampa & Owhee.
Again I must be lucky, though in reality its actually down to lots of fine tuning by the Layout Owner, he holds a quick debrief session at the end of operations, that the time spent in "the hole" waiting for the priority trains to go through is not actually that long and well spent in having a "quick brew-up and yarn with others in the same predicament.
Bobs suggestion about having operation sessions before landscaping is a particularly valid one.
To outsiders I've always described "operations" as akin to playing chess with trains.
No pressure but looking forward, long term, to see your layout as 1958 will be the cutoff date on my planned North Eastern freelanced railroad. Reckon that you guys that model a specific prototype in a specific time frame are making a rod for your own backs, but have to admire you for doing so.
Cheers,the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
You could always build a double main line with crossovers. That way, you have all of the benefits of a double main line with the operation challenges of a single main line with long sidings.
My layout is a double main line, and I would not do without it.
Craig...
If you are to be having operating sessions you might want to consider some things that were brushed against above.
What is it that you are trying to model?
If you are to be using a card or similar computer generated switching system, will a single track cause a bottle neck? This is important as you don't want to punish your operators. There is a fine line between prototypical operation and frustrations of being backed up waiting for yard access.
Setting your times for route schedules can solve some of this but new operators will have trouble keeping up with the clock and what might have started out simple enough turns into something quite different.
Double track can be used for a passing track or left and right traffic in and out of a yard.... Beware of CNW left side drive ! ! ! !
Many modelers put their pike into some service before extensive scenic work. You may want to run some operating sessions with single track and then decide if a second track is necessary before landscaping.
Recall that the big boys will add track options in yards or accesses if traffic justifies it.
see yaBob
Aikidomaster My layout will have about 120 feet of mainline. It is a point to point layout with staging at each end. I have about 30% of the mainline installed (but that includes part of the main yard. I have tried to make it single track with 2 long passing sidings already built. I will run N&W Y6b's, J's, and A's. Coal trains with about 18 cars and a caboose. I have not decided about the rest of the mainline. That is whether or not to single or double track it. My layout is based on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in the fall of 1958. The line was, of course double tracked. I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations.
My layout will have about 120 feet of mainline. It is a point to point layout with staging at each end. I have about 30% of the mainline installed (but that includes part of the main yard. I have tried to make it single track with 2 long passing sidings already built. I will run N&W Y6b's, J's, and A's. Coal trains with about 18 cars and a caboose. I have not decided about the rest of the mainline. That is whether or not to single or double track it. My layout is based on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in the fall of 1958. The line was, of course double tracked. I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations.
The decision really hinges on what you consider more "interesting operations".
Following the prototype's track arrangements only works well if you are following the prototype's operations.
In the '50s, Armstrong divided operations into 3 basic categories. Most of us tend to lean one direction more than the others, but few of us are totally in one camp.
At the simple end from a layout design perspective is the "spectator". The spectator basically railfans in miniature. He recreates telltale scenes - in your case, perhaps watching a loaded coal drag pass a significant landmark - and watches the trains pass through them. Scenery is important to the spectator. So is plenty of staging, as the spectator generally doesn't want to spend significant time working a yard making and breaking up trains. For the spectator's layout, double track is often a plus, especially if it is prototypical. The double track allows longer trains and higher train density.
The engineer enjoys being the train crew on his train - conductor, fireman, engineer all in one person. Typically, this person enjoys running way freights so he can do switching along the route. Engine servicing before and at the end of the run are often important items for the engineer. Single track main is often better suited to the engineer so that he has to periodically clear the main for higher priority trains. Designing a layout to sit an engineer is more difficult than it may seem. If running a train is too easy, the layout is boring. If the obstacles become too difficult, frustration sets in. And the thresholds may change over time as the engineer gains operating experience.
The dispatcher is all about running a railroad with multiple trains. Obstacles have to be overcome while getting the job done. Timetables need to be met. I have never operated on a club layout that was far enough long to know/understand this type of operation well. But many club layouts, and some private layouts were of this type.
So what type of operations are you envisioning? And how big an operating crew?
Some of the more successful point-to-point layouts that were known for operations (I'm thinking of Delta Lines and the Victoria Northern in particular) used double track at least part way from the larger terminal to the division point, and single track for the rest.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Aikidomaster... I have tried to make it single track with 2 long passing sidings already built. I will run N&W Y6b's, J's, and A's. Coal trains with about 18 cars and a caboose. ...The line was, of course double tracked.
Single track or widely spaced (and perhaps non parallel) double tracks make the run seem longer. And at what point does a very long passing siding look like a double track mainline.I guess it depends on how faithful to the original you want to be.
"I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations."
So would John Armstrong (or A.C. Kalmbach). If you haven't ready chapter 3 of Track Planning for Realistic Operation 3rd Ed. by Armstrong, you should. Even with a double track you still need passing sidings.
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
First, I am certain that this is not the first time this has been discussed. But, I would like to hear from folks about the subject (possibly again). If you think that I am beating a dead horse, please be kind enough and have the good manners not to express your negative opinions.
Craig North Carolina