Cass shays,
I have decided on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in October,1957. The double train mainline is a big part of the Division. I have one section of about 12 feet that is single tracked. There is a second section that goes single track through a tunnel. The 2nd section would be easy to double track.
I guess that I was thinking that some areas of single track would cause more operational opportunities. But, that stems from my lack of knowledge and experience with operating a model railroad.
I am going to look into double tracking the mainline through the 2nd "tunnel" and see how that works out.
Thanks to all who have been kind enough to give me their input with this thread.
Craig North Carolina
Paul,
I have been reading through this thread, again. I found one mistake that I made which is that the mainline is 210 feet not 120 feet.. That is a big difference. I am look at a third 4 track hidden staging track near the mid portion of the western section.
Their are a lot of things to consider when building a model layout. You have already passed several hurtles already. You know what railroad you want to model and you even have picked out a division. That said, you're next decision is how close to the prototype practices you want or can follow in the space available to you. If I had to make you're decisions I would be more inclined to do as the N&W did on the division .You're decision to run large steam would encourage me to keep my minimum radius in the 40" area and keep my towns/locations down to no more than half a dozen at the most. Each end of the layout could be a terminal. That would leave you with perhaps no more than 4 intermediate "areas" to model. I think that the layout would look awesome going from point A to point B and passing through a few of you're favorite intermediate locations. If you have chosen to model the Pocahontas Div., and it was a double track affair, I think you should go that route. I personally wouldn't be satisfied to do it any other way and with you asking for other opinions, I suspect that what you currently have isn't satisfying you ether. Don't be afraid or ashamed to pray about it.
Hi,
Not sure if a third alternative has been brought up, that being a double main with a third track (between the two mains) used as a passing siding by both. As I recall, the Illinois Central had this going in southern Illinois, and to the best of my information it worked out just fine.
Anyway, this would allow you to just freely run two trains in opposite directions and not have to tend to them (sometimes I like to just sit back and watch trains run). Or, you could pull a slow freight onto the siding so that passenger train could go by, or ?????
Back to your original alternatives (double main or single w/passing sidings), it really comes down to personal preference - also dictated by the prototype you are modeling (or not).
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
hi again,
though the OP seems to have quit-ted, reading through the thread reveals we are talking about a rather short point-to-point layout; built for at least a 9 men crew. Running a lot of through trains will probably not be an option, unless massive staging yards are available.
Double track might be the best option anyway, to keep different local engineers apart. Like John Armstrong did in a design "Tailored For The Way Freight.
I have the impression the OP would love to have a lot of through traffic on the double track N&W mainline, but is struck with his point-to-point configuration. More then "to double track" or not the concept of the layout is at stake. Will his plan make 6 engineers happy, beside two doing classification jobs in the yard?
Paul
I have many years' worth of experience (too many?) on UK outline modelling in OO/HO and N and have moved to US outline N in the last couple of years. Over here, most main lines are double track, so folk modelling a main line model double track. [Some main lines were reduced from double to single in the late 1960's and early 1970's, but the Salisbury to Exeter line is having double track restored in some areas, to improve efficiency.] So far as my research tells me, there is a mixture in the USA, so it does rather depend on the area you have chosen to model whether you have single or double track.
Most branch lines over here are single track, and most folk doing a UK branch lihe will, therefore, normally do single track. For some reason, the overwhelming majority of UK branch layouts seem to be of the old Great Western territory, even for someone living in Scotland!
Most of us over here don't have basements, and very few of us have layouts in the loft, though some do. Mine is in a spare bedroom and represents the terminus of a branch line, out and back with return loop. I moved away from the end to end as designed originally because it didn't "feel" right. Yes, it's single track.
It's really a matter, as others have said, on what YOU feel best suits YOUR requirements.
Happy modelling!
Pete
It all depends on whether or not you want a lot of run through trains moving on the layout. That is your decision. Personally I like a layout with some single track mainline with the passing sidings located only at towns served by the railroad. But, my consideration was a lack of space to include a double track main on certain parts where I wanted scenery to be the focal point. You have to weigh all the options and then decide whats best for your individual situation. Good luck!
A lot of good suggestions here. I do think you will have more options for operating with a double-track mainline, especially if you have two engineers (a friend with you) each running your own train. I also like the suggestion of a crossover or two - again giving you more options.
I have found that sometimes it's best to start with an operations book. If it's based on the prototype you'll normally quickly see why the road was built the way it was. Although if given the choice and resources were not an issue, RRs would want more track with larger clearances to increase throughput and avoid choke points.
Richard
It depends too on what you mean by "operating". In recent years that has come to mean "a bunch of guys getting together once a month to 'operate' a layout". I'd argue "operation" means doing more with your layout than watching trains run 'round and round. If you're running on a schedule (either timed or sequence) or just running a way freight dropping off and picking up cars, you're "operating" your layout, even if it's just you doing it.
One thing I'd add for planning/building a layout is that, IMHO, one mistake people make is that they spread out the layout's industries more or less evenly over the layout. It's probably more realistic to have groupings of industries with 'open spaces' between them, just the way a real train might stop to serve 2-3 industries in a small town, then go several miles to the next town and serve 2-3 industries there. Plus, having one big industry might be better than several small ones.
Aikidomaster Thank you for your input. There is a nearby club that has a layout that is 95% complete. I have hesitated in going there because of various excuses. One is that there is not much left to do on the layout. And two, is that I am somewhat embarrassed about my lack of operational running. Guess it is time to pay them a visit.
Thank you for your input. There is a nearby club that has a layout that is 95% complete. I have hesitated in going there because of various excuses. One is that there is not much left to do on the layout. And two, is that I am somewhat embarrassed about my lack of operational running. Guess it is time to pay them a visit.
I have no interest in joining a club, and I have no first hand experience with operations.
But if I were you, my plan would be to contact the club and ask if you might attend an operating session to observe. Then, if the club members are willing, simply attend, observe, and ask questions without being a pest or nuisance. Once you get comfortable and gain a little knowledge of operations, you will be good to go.
Rich
Alton Junction
If they make you feel embarrassed over your lack of experience, shame on them (and probably not a club to be involved with). Everyone has started somewhere and with limited knowledge. It's only by providing experiential and learning opportunities that the hobby not only sustains but grows.
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
Rob,
I am trying to remain flexible with respect to the layout plan. That is why I started with the classification yard (in the "middle" of the layout and then started building "west". The yard is far from complete and the servicing facilities are not installed. I have been running some trains westbound and doing some classification switching in the west end of the yard (the east end is a "work in progress"). This has made me come up with some design changes in the yard for smoother operation. I am lengthening the drill track as it was not long enough for some of the trains I plan to run.
Stix,
You come up with a good point that I have already thought about but had not drawn up plans. That is having one of the staging yards in "the open" and having a turntable for the locomotives (and some of the equipment).
I am certain that the staging track that is the hardest to reach will be the one with the most problems! I love scenery, and another yard at the end of the layout would be another opportunity for scenery.
AikidomasterOne of my many problems, is that I have NEVER participated (nor been invited) to an operating session. So, besides reading a lot of books on the subject and reading the FORUM, I have just been "winging it". To be honest, I love the building of structures and making scenery. Therefore, operations has been an after thought.
To be honest, I love the building of structures and making scenery. Therefore, operations has been an after thought.
Unfortunately this really puts you at a disadvantage. Layouts with operations added as afterthoughts, and layouts where the designer/builder had minimal or no experience operating rarely run like those created by and for experienced operators. Even armed with a lot of "book learning" there's a lot to incorporate that only experience will show you. Hopefully you can connect with some good operating crews and get some first-hand exposure, and stay flexible when it comes to changing your layout based on what you learn.
Rob Spangler
Well, the thought of 16-20 train staging yards scares me because of my limited space. I guess I need to think about operations a lot more before continuing on with construction.
One of my many problems, is that I have NEVER participated (nor been invited) to an operating session. So, besides reading a lot of books on the subject and reading the FORUM, I have just been "winging it".
dstarr,
There is a classification yard half way between the two staging yards. As far as turning locomotives, I have planned that one staging yard will be another visible yard with a turntable. I had thought about a wye but that takes up too much space.
N&W Pocahontas Division, in a way reminds me, of our nearby high mountain iron of Pennsy's Gallitzin Tunnels -- Just a few minutes west of the Horseshoe Curve -- Then 4-track PRR operations which are now largely 3-track N&W mainlines.
Compare those pictures to of a nearby (Pocahontas area) N&W Elkhorn Tunnel traction, and photos found at this N Scale Pocahontas Division website -- Heavy-duty Class I railroading. Prototype operations seem to be more 2-track than 1-track -- Although you can still see 1-track tunnels, etc.
Since you have the room, you might consider a 2-track mainline, but with one of the mains subject to 1-track (passing track) operations. In other words, you could have one of the two mainlines provide more of a heavy-duty (constant-running) appearance of "coming from the world beyond" while "going to the world beyond."
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
I lived in Roanoke, VA for 10 years. I was there when the O. Winston Link Museum was opened. But, my love of the N&W steam actually came from riding #1218 and #611 on excursions. 25 years ago, I was living in Salisbury, NC. #1218 came thru town and turned around on the Y at the station. I was railfanning with my 3 years old daughter at that moment. We were allowed in the cab of #1218 and rode while the engine was turned!! That was it for me!! I have been a fan of the Southern Railway, but they dieselized too early for my tastes. The merger of N&W and Southern Ry in 1982 made it easy to want to follow both.
For some reason, John Armstrong's dictum "don't do anything twice" always sticks with me.
I'd be tempted to look at having one end of the layout being a staging / fiddle yard, and the other end a "working" yard with a turntable / roundhouse, fueling facilities, and yard tracks to break down and assemble trains. A reverse loop as part of the staging area would be nice, allowing you to turn trains either to be re-used during the operating session (like a passenger train) or just to be turned to be ready for the next operating session.
As far as double-track vs. single-track, I always find when I get confused and can't find the answer in a track planning book, the last resort is to look at what the real railroad did. With long trains running both directions, double track made sense for the N&W so I suspect would make sense for your model of the N&W.
Hi Graig,
6 people running trains, while the running time between staging yards is about 3 minutes you could have a train entering your yard every minute. Here the pace of activities probably can't cope with all the incoming trains.
With so many trains , and you have to keep your engineers occupied, you will need huge staging yards. Lets assume 4 of these engineers are running main line consists, lets assume it takes them 10 minutes to go from yard to yard they will run between 8 and 10 trains each during a session. Your staging yards should have a 16 to 20 train capacity at both sides.
The pace of the wayfreight or local will be much slower. Never the less with such a busy main line it will be hard to serve industries along the main. Without knowing much more about your track plan, you could show it on here, it is impossible to talk about possible operations on your layout.
Smile
Bob,
I am not very experienced with operating a model railroad prototypically. I have built some scenery, but that is just a large mountain that has 42 inch radius (for inner track) doing a 180 degree turn. Then, there are background mountains against the wall. There is a mainline, large passing siding with crossover, and 2 tracks to the coal tipple. I plan for heavy coal traffic and at least 3 mines modeled. I will run one eastbound and one westbound passenger train daily. Wood products are another industry that I want to incorporate. Thanks for the help.
Fred,
I have thought that about 6-7 operators would be good. That would be 3 people for east bound trains and 3 people for westbound trains. There would be a yard locomotives in which there are 2 arrival/departure tracks, and 4 classification tracks along with a roundhouse, turntable and a few industries. This might mean that 2 people are needed for yard work. There would be a dispatcher. I plan to use the way bills for car routing. Thanks!
Aikidomaster I have not decided about the rest of the mainline. That is whether or not to single or double track it. My layout is based on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in the fall of 1958. The line was, of course double tracked. I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations.
I have not decided about the rest of the mainline. That is whether or not to single or double track it. My layout is based on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in the fall of 1958. The line was, of course double tracked. I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations.
Totally up to you.Single track increases the dependence on dispatching and creates more interaction between trains, double track looks better if you are modeling a line that had double track.
Either way, nothing prevents you from keeping speeds down as your trains moves along the layout, and having some passing sidings beside the double track, so a train can go into a siding to let another train overtake it, or declaring that some section of the double track main is out of bounds due to track work or something like that.
If you want to see an inspirational layout which is partly single track and partly double track, have a look at the layout belonging to Grampy's Trains.You can see that layout in this thread: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/135313/1517796.aspx#1517796
Here is the schematic, to the best of my abilities as judged from looking at the photos of the layout - bottom part goes on the left end of the top part:
Smile, Stein
Since I am modeling a stretch of Santa Fe in Oklahoma on three decks, which includes trackage at Oklahoma City, Enid and other towns, and since I operate it as the Santa Fe did in 1988-89, and since the mainline is single track with passing tracks, that is what I model. Works fine for me, I am happy with the operation, and it pretty much resembles the full size line it models.
Bob
Hmm. So a train leaves staging at one end of the layout, travels the main line, and within 120 feet (two scale miles in HO) the train enters staging at the far end. Trip over? What happens next? Can you reverse the train direction in staging so that it sooner or later runs back to where it came? Or do you have to swap the engine and caboose by hand? Or do you run the train backwards to get back where it came from?
For me, the idea of getting a train on the tracks, coupled up, and out of staging, and then after just a couple of minutes, put that train into staging, and get out another one, is unattractive. Once I get a train going, I like to admire it running for quite some time. Was it me, I'd have a loop at each end to give continuous running.
As far as operation goes, a single track main with passing sidings keeps you busy if you have two trains running at the same time. The inferior train has to get itself into a siding and clear the main for the superior train. Whereas with a double track main you can have two trains running at the same time and never worry, they won't collide.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
LIONOne would expect no less for a subway line (largest in ND I believe)
LION has a FOUR track main line. An express track and a local track in each of two directions.
Time table calls for 478 local trains daily, I do not dispatch the express trains, they just run on closed loops by them selves, but in theory there would be about 500 daily express trains as well.
I have 6 train sets serving the local track from 242nd Street to the South Ferry Loop and back again a distance of 9+ scale miles, and making the run in 18 minutes, including all of the stops. Trains run on a five minute headway, and as the tower operator / dispatcher all I handle is the interlocking plant at 242nd Street. Operation of the trains is automatic.
At the moment there is just one train set in each direction on the express loops, but I really should have two train sets on each because my interval between trains is a tad bid more than it should be. If I did that I would have to coordinate with Nevins Tower and with Lenox Tower as those trains enter the Broadway tracks. It is doable by hand, but my automation is not that far along yet.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Another possibility is a non-parallel double track mainline, somewhat like Southern Pacific's Donner Pass line in the California Sierra Nevada mountains, or Santa Fe in portions of California and Arizona. In Espee's case, a newer second track with easier grades was built somewhat parallel to the original grade, but not STRICTLY parallel (in some instances, the two grades are separated by several miles and enough elevation difference to allow for several crossovers).
Union Pacific, which owns the Donner Pass line now, made both tracks multidirectional several years back for double-stack tunnel clearance purposes, so it wouldn't be un-prototypical on a model railroad to see, say, an eastbound train on a westbound track.
It's a concept that I adapted for my own MR, which is a 'loop' instead of point-to-point, and allows twice the running space for my trains. And with the non-parallel concept, my train never seems to appear to be going through the same scenery twice.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!