Not nentuoned for micro engineering (ME) as was the other brands, ME track is made in USA.
The price differences in code 83 flex track now are not as extreme as when this thread was new.
.
Atlas is going up in price faster than the others it seems.
Rapido left before I could try theirs. I never saw it for sale anywhere, maybe that had something to do with it.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Holy necro topic batman!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
MOCH NUR MOCHLISIN How about track aging , by the time nickel rail will be rusty and we had to cleaned in particular time. I think price would be add reliability to rusting factor of the track it self. Kato rail is more durable providing electricity than atlas after so many year. How's your experience?
How about track aging , by the time nickel rail will be rusty and we had to cleaned in particular time. I think price would be add reliability to rusting factor of the track it self. Kato rail is more durable providing electricity than atlas after so many year. How's your experience?
Welcome to the forum. Nickel-silver rail doesn’t rust in the traditional sense. The oxidate that forms on it over time is reportedly somewhat conductive itself. But the track does need cleaning, especially if not operated frequently.
KATO uses a similar nickel-silver for rail as Atlas and others. So it needs to be cleaned occasionally as well.
One difference is the built-in KATO Unijoiner that conducts electricity better than rail joiners used with other track. Most folks solder connections to traditional track for long-term reliability anyway, which solves that problem.
But rail-to-wheel conductivity is exactly the same for Unitrack and any nickel-silver flextrack. It has to be, the materials are the same.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
NP2626 As applies to manufacturers making track for model railroading, there likely never would have been a time when they were making small batches of track for friends, as the process is far to complex and costly to get into, unless focused on a commercial, profit making venture!
As applies to manufacturers making track for model railroading, there likely never would have been a time when they were making small batches of track for friends, as the process is far to complex and costly to get into, unless focused on a commercial, profit making venture!
fwright NP2626 ....All of the producers need to recoup the cost of the tooling over some period of time, whether Code 100/83/70/55/40, doesn't matter. Obviously, when the amortization of the tooling cost is complete the company could reduce the price of the product some as the tooling has been paid for. Unfortunately, dies and tooling have a limited life span. Depending on how the dies and tooling were made, refurbishment can be cheap or very expensive (think replacement). Hard steel dies are the most expensive to create, but the longest lasting. As the dies wear, cast detail is not as crisp, and there are considerably more rejects in the finished product. Model railroad manufacturers often take advantage of die refurbishment to make minor detail changes in the finished product. The molds for resin kits typically last only 2 batches of 30 casts before the reject rate gets too high, and the mold needs replacing. Steel molds for plastic casting generally need refurbishing/cleanup before a 1,000 casts are made. Aluminum molds are somewhere in the middle. However, why leave that money on the table? Also, when Code 83 was a new product, there was less demand for it so it commandeered a higher price. When demand for Code 83 increased over time, I think the manufacturers asked themselves why should they leave that money on the table, also? Don't kid yoursleves profit is what the manufacturers are after and I don't begrudge them for it and want them to be successful at they business! I don't believe any model railroad manufacturer - certainly not the family-owned ones - looks at money left on the table - in other words, charging the maximum the market will bear. Most got their start as providing a product or service to themselves and friends, where they tried to keep the price at just enough to break even. As (if) the business grew, raising the prices enough to support the full-time costs of the owners and employees has always been a problem. Which is why many small manufacturers pack it in after a decade - they lost their hobby, and they couldn't raise their prices enough to take their work from a labor of love to a solid business, and they could no longer justify the mess they were in. just my thoughts and experiences Fred W
NP2626 ....All of the producers need to recoup the cost of the tooling over some period of time, whether Code 100/83/70/55/40, doesn't matter. Obviously, when the amortization of the tooling cost is complete the company could reduce the price of the product some as the tooling has been paid for.
....All of the producers need to recoup the cost of the tooling over some period of time, whether Code 100/83/70/55/40, doesn't matter. Obviously, when the amortization of the tooling cost is complete the company could reduce the price of the product some as the tooling has been paid for.
Unfortunately, dies and tooling have a limited life span. Depending on how the dies and tooling were made, refurbishment can be cheap or very expensive (think replacement). Hard steel dies are the most expensive to create, but the longest lasting. As the dies wear, cast detail is not as crisp, and there are considerably more rejects in the finished product. Model railroad manufacturers often take advantage of die refurbishment to make minor detail changes in the finished product.
The molds for resin kits typically last only 2 batches of 30 casts before the reject rate gets too high, and the mold needs replacing. Steel molds for plastic casting generally need refurbishing/cleanup before a 1,000 casts are made. Aluminum molds are somewhere in the middle.
However, why leave that money on the table? Also, when Code 83 was a new product, there was less demand for it so it commandeered a higher price. When demand for Code 83 increased over time, I think the manufacturers asked themselves why should they leave that money on the table, also? Don't kid yoursleves profit is what the manufacturers are after and I don't begrudge them for it and want them to be successful at they business!
Don't kid yoursleves profit is what the manufacturers are after and I don't begrudge them for it and want them to be successful at they business!
I don't believe any model railroad manufacturer - certainly not the family-owned ones - looks at money left on the table - in other words, charging the maximum the market will bear. Most got their start as providing a product or service to themselves and friends, where they tried to keep the price at just enough to break even. As (if) the business grew, raising the prices enough to support the full-time costs of the owners and employees has always been a problem. Which is why many small manufacturers pack it in after a decade - they lost their hobby, and they couldn't raise their prices enough to take their work from a labor of love to a solid business, and they could no longer justify the mess they were in.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
If your talking about resin or wood car kits, the scenario you alluded to, sounds plausible; but, not for track, which is what this thread is about.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
How many casts a day do you think a manufacturer runs? Take a look at the video, and tell me how many pieces of track do you think actually get drawn in a day? How many pieces of code 83 flex does ME actually sell in a year? I would be willing to bet quite a bit less than 10,000.
My figures were referring to die cast steam locomotive and car (resin) kit production, where casting problems are more obvious and more common. I mistakenly applied the die-cast figures to plastic, but after seeing how well aluminum molds don't hold up for multiple runs of plastic casting, I'm not sure steel molds could go more than 5K plastic pieces without refurbishing. Refurbishing could be as simple as a good cleaning and careful inspection. Or it could be small changes to the mold. Or repair of cracks and stress fractures and straightening warped sections. A good size run for a steam locomotive is considered 5K, which would tie in well.
The people who really knew this stuff were those who did casting work for Bowser. And they had to do extensive work on the Varney, Cary, and Penn Line tooling they bought to keep it producing usable product. The Arbour line could not be revived by Bowser as the tooling was too worn. As another example, look at the effort involved on Model Power's part to get the Mantua tooling back in production. Even the Athearn and MDC tooling had to be revamped for Horizon to import product from the old tooling.
Actual manufacturing is nowhere near as simple as many of us are led to believe.
Yeah just plug some of those "wow, the good old days" prices into an inflation claculator. It sounds impressive but when adjusted for inflation - not always so rosy.
Ha - just watched Goldfinger again last night, they're talking about gold being $50-$100 an ounce.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker They make it there, there was an article in a recent issue of MRH where they did a visit to the plant.' Prior to the late 80's or so, the company was actually Rail Craft. Been around and advertising in MR since the 60's. In the name traisition timeframe, the ads would be for Micro Engineering, with products like Railcraft track. --Randy
They make it there, there was an article in a recent issue of MRH where they did a visit to the plant.'
Prior to the late 80's or so, the company was actually Rail Craft. Been around and advertising in MR since the 60's. In the name traisition timeframe, the ads would be for Micro Engineering, with products like Railcraft track.
As an example in the December 1982 issue of MR there is an ad for Rail Craft headed "Rail Craft Flex-Trak is Back!" - which suggests that even back then their production was a now and then proposition. There were offering HO in Codes 100, 83, 70, and 55. HOn3 in Codes 70 and 55 (also dual HO/HOn3), HOn 2 1/2 in Code 55 and N in Codes 70 and 55. HO Code 100 flex was $15.85 for 6 three foot pieces, and a whopping $1.50 for shipping and handling on orders under $50.
Before you start to weep at those prices ("I shoulda stocked up, I coulda stocked up") the MR itself was $1.75 and a brass UP sleeper from Coach Yard was $92.50. And nobody was thinking MR and brass were cheap ....
Dave Nelson
Steel molds for plastic casting generally need refurbishing/cleanup before a 1,000 casts are made.
That would be every few days for M.E., and every day for larger operations. Sounds dubious.
Steve S
The tooling to produce track with finer details is more expensive, the process of manufacturing it is not; or, maybe just slightly slower. All of the producers need to recoup the cost of the tooling over some period of time, whether Code 100/83/70/55/40, doesn't matter. Obviously, when the amortization of the tooling cost is complete the company could reduce the price of the product some as the tooling has been paid for. However, why leave that money on the table? Also, when Code 83 was a new product, there was less demand for it so it commandeered a higher price. When demand for Code 83 increased over time, I think the manufacturers asked themselves why should they leave that money on the table, also?
Don't kid yoursleves profit is what the manufacturers are after and I don't begrudge them for it and want them to be successful at they're business!
I also used Atlas code 83 flex, I have about 7 boxes on my layout so I'm glad I built my layout 5 years ago. Mine came from NHS Hobbies, about the cheapest place to get track and turnouts and they have free shipping, might want to check them out, Jim.
After watching the video, I'm shocked at the lack of a more productive method.
David
If you look on the bottom of a piece, you can see how the tie sections are in 4 pieces, one for each press you see in the video. No doubt a larger machine could do the whole 3' section in one pass, but that would require an expensive new machine AND expensive new dies.
Also, made the links clickable
Steven S It's the November 2012 issue... http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/back-issues There's also a video showing a section of flex track being made. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p02-uEUHiI& It takes longer than I would have expected. He makes two passes to get a single piece of track. It takes about a minute total. Steve S
It's the November 2012 issue...
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/back-issues
There's also a video showing a section of flex track being made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p02-uEUHiI&
It takes longer than I would have expected. He makes two passes to get a single piece of track. It takes about a minute total.
I use Shinohara code 70 track and turnouts, always bought for way less than Atlas as far as price is concerned!
I'll be darned, something actually made in the USA.
Rich
Alton Junction
Steven S I know Chuck posted this back in 2011, but since RWVinson resurrected this thread it's worth pointing out that Micro Engineering track is made in Fenton, Missouri.
I know Chuck posted this back in 2011, but since RWVinson resurrected this thread it's worth pointing out that Micro Engineering track is made in Fenton, Missouri.
Steve, is the track actually made in Missouri, or is that simply the location of ME ?
tomikawaTT Part of the difference is cost of manufacture at point of origin. Present-day Atlas is manufactured in China. Shinohara (imported by Walthers) is manufactured in Japan. Peco is a product of the United Kingdom. I don't know where other brands come from, but wherever they come from the manufacturer had to pay all the usual costs of business, plus taxes.
Part of the difference is cost of manufacture at point of origin.
Present-day Atlas is manufactured in China. Shinohara (imported by Walthers) is manufactured in Japan. Peco is a product of the United Kingdom. I don't know where other brands come from, but wherever they come from the manufacturer had to pay all the usual costs of business, plus taxes.
If you are using Walthers structures, you might have to use Walthers tracks. For example the walthers turntable uses walters code 83 track. The tie thickness difference between Atlas and Walthers.
So if you use Atlas as the fan tracks on the turntable, you'll quickly discover that your railhead is too high for the turntable track.
That said, I like Walthers turnouts. I would prefer ME stuff, but their selection is limited. So for consistancy sake, I use Walthers.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
wp8thsubAs for quality, while the spike detail on Atlas is heavier than the others the plastic they use is more brittle. I seem to break more spike heads on Atlas than ME, but overall it's engineered to be easy and quick to use. Walthers/Shinohara has somewhat large spike heads, but ease of use is similar to ME (i.e. more work than Atlas). It's kind of the worst of both worlds in that respect, but it's priced consistently higher than ME or Atlas. I haven't used Peco, so can't assess their product. Their US prototype code 83 flex always seems to be expensive relative to ME and Atlas, so I really haven't considered using it.
Walthers/Shinohara has somewhat large spike heads, but ease of use is similar to ME (i.e. more work than Atlas). It's kind of the worst of both worlds in that respect, but it's priced consistently higher than ME or Atlas.
I haven't used Peco, so can't assess their product. Their US prototype code 83 flex always seems to be expensive relative to ME and Atlas, so I really haven't considered using it.
Yes, thats my experience too. I've found it is easy to break the rail out of the spike heads on the Atlas code 83 if you are rough with it. But I have always liked the ease of flexing and laying Atlas code 100 and 83 vs the other "fine scale" track, like ME or Walthers/Shinohara.
Economy is also part of the picture because cost of track can really add up. In the past I've mail ordered track in small bundles to save money. Also to save money I used generic Atlas code 100 flex for staging were appearance isn't important, and Atlas code 83 as a compromise between looks and cost for mainline track. I've used Walthers Code 70 in years for closer to scale appearance.
CharlieM90 dante: Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer. I think that's an important point. I'm committed to using The Walthers/Shinohara turnouts. And the Shinohara flex track has the same tie profile as the turnouts - which means (for me) it's easier to use.
dante: Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer.
Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer.
I think that's an important point.
I'm committed to using The Walthers/Shinohara turnouts. And the Shinohara flex track has the same tie profile as the turnouts - which means (for me) it's easier to use.
Were I to follow your reasoning, I would use Shinohara products exclusively. They are the only ones on the American market accurately scaled for HOj - 1:80 scale Japanese prototype on 16.5mm gauge track.
OTOH, I am Ebeneezer Scrrge II when it comes to spending $$$, and Shinohara is NOT the low-price spread! Add in that I am fond of puzzle palace specialwork, odd radii and non-standard track configurations that can't be assembled out of anything that comes in a box or bubble pack. So I use Atlas flex (including concrete tie Code 83) and hand-lay all of my specialwork in place.
Assuming that I could convince Shinohara components to align into the yard throat and station approach at the down end of Tomikawa, the MSRP of those commercial products would exceed the probable cost of ALL of my projected JNR trackwork. Just the savings on a pair of double slips would provide me with kitbash fodder for another unit train.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - flex track, handlaid specialwork)
Turnouts do create another overlay in this discussion. Unless you are going to handlay them or use fast tracks, I see little way to get around using at least some of the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts as they are the only ones making a wide selection of curved turnouts in code 83.
Micro Engineering Turnouts are also steps ahead of the others in my book on appearance but they make only a No. 6. I have used lots of them on the current layout mixed with Shinohara, scratchbuilt and other brands here and there where I needed other configurations and sizes. I haven't had much difficulty using ME flex and other brands of turnouts in terms of height differences etc....
I do think that it is important to look at the turnout brands but I wouldn't let the choice of turnout drive the choice of flex track. With turnouts you do have to make some decisions about reliability, looks, cost and time spent. If I had it to over again, I would probably go with fast tracks for most of my turnouts.
Of course opinions do vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
dante Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer.
Enough with this wimpy code 83 track! The LION uses code 100 track, and has done so for the past 50 years! LION finds Atlas Flex Track at $5.25 ea at the LHS. But LIONS do not pay that much money for track. Him bought Model Power at $3.20 ea (a bundle of 100 pieces) from his old LHS in Brooklyn, NY ☺
They sell the Atlas for $4.something in bundles of 25. LIONS are not impressed. And the LION likes the detail on the Model Power product better than the detail on the Atlas product. Atlas as was said is flexible, Model Power is "Bendable", which the LION likes better. All of it is made in China, so shipping etc is a push.
The catalog price (MSRP) is a fake, so that you can get a "DEAL!" from your LHS. After all, he's such a good guy, you know, and you do want to keep him in business. But Dave in Bismarck is handy and near by (well 75 miles one way--so never a trip in itself) but not so well stocked. He pays less in rent that Paul (in Brooklyn) and has far fewer employees to pay (1 vs lots), but Paul still comes up with the better price, because he can buy in HUGE quantities directly from the manufacturer. Dave has to buy them one at a time from Walthers, or maybe Athearn. I have to pay tax when I buy from Dave, but I have to pay shipping when I buy from Paul, and shipping is generally much more than taxes. Sometimes when I visit Paul's shop in Brooklyn, I have him ship my purchases to North Dakota, then I get to pay taxes and shipping, but at least I do not get an extra baggage charge on the airplane.
To make a short story long... there are many factors that go into the price of an item. Do not compare the price: Compare the VALUE!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS