Being fairly new, I was wondering if there a reason why there is a significant differance in track cost. I'm looking at HO Code 83.
Is there a reason why Atlas is the cheapest? Is it just volume? Is there a manufacturing/quality reason?
Nickel Silver is Nickel Silver, plastic ties are plastic ties.
I've been looking at M.E. , Atlas, Walthers/Shinohara and Peco.
Thanks,
David
IMO. I would think that Atlas most likely sells as much of the code83 as all the others combined. I'm would not be surprised if it is also true of all scales and codes of flex track.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
Look at the spike and tie plate details. Atlas is usually not as good as brands like ME, Shinohara, etc.
OTOH once it's laid, ballasted, etc. you may not notice at normal viewing distances..
Enjoy
Paul
ME has finer railhead profile and spike detail than the other brands and the price reflects this difference. I use ME exclusively for visible flex track. I take lots of close up photos and the details do show up in the pics.
ME codes 70 and 55 un-ballasted.
ME codes 80 and 70 ballasted and painted.
Before I made my decision, I ballasted and painted a stick of each of the major brands available and compared them. ME looked the best to me in the side by side. While it is true that all of the brands look good when painted and ballasted, to me ME looks a lot better than the others. If it is important to you, I would buy a stick of each of the brands and compare before making a large purchase..
of course, opinions do vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Part of the difference is cost of manufacture at point of origin.
Present-day Atlas is manufactured in China. Shinohara (imported by Walthers) is manufactured in Japan. Peco is a product of the United Kingdom. I don't know where other brands come from, but wherever they come from the manufacturer had to pay all the usual costs of business, plus taxes.
There is also the Atlas economy of scale factor. If you make ten times as many widgets as your competitor you can make them for a lower cost per widget.
Notice I said COST. Cost is what the businessperson has to pay. Price (especially MSRP) is what the last person in the distribution chain wants YOU to pay.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - aced Ec 101 in 1985)
I use Atlas Code 83 flex track exclusively on my layout. It looks fine and performs just fine.
If your purpose is to perform some very closeup photography for a modeling contest or something likes that, maybe the finer detail of one brand over another makes sense. But, if you are simply looking to construct a layout and want to use track that will give you reliable performance while still looking like real railroad track, Atlas Code 83 flex track will suit your purposes just fine.
Rich
Alton Junction
Atlas Code 83 is the Model T of track. It is the most popular and the most available and the most sold.
Since it works as well as any NS track and generally looks the same balasted as the more expensive models, one need not look any further, really.
Unless one is a stickler for fine details, or takes close up pics that are to appear as close to as real as life.
{BTW Atlas Code 100 Has been around longer than Atlas COde 83, so it is generally cheaper than the Atlas Code 83 simply because the tooling has been around longer and they have made their money on it times over again}
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
galaxy BTW Atlas Code 100 Has been around longer than Atlas COde 83, so it is generally cheaper than the Atlas Code 83 simply because the tooling has been around longer and they have made their money on it times over again
BTW Atlas Code 100 Has been around longer than Atlas COde 83, so it is generally cheaper than the Atlas Code 83 simply because the tooling has been around longer and they have made their money on it times over again
I might add that Atlas Code 100 flex track is quite suitable as well, as galaxy points out. The differences are mainly that Code 100 has a slightly higher rail profile and the ties are black and slightly bulkier. I use Code 100 flex track on portions of my layout that are older before I switched to Code 83 track. Incidentally, the reason I switched to Code 83 track is that many types of specialty track are more readily available in Code 83 including the bridge track on turntables, wyes, crossings, 3-way turnouts, bridge track for bridges, etc.
Bluegill1 Is there a reason why Atlas is the cheapest? Is it just volume? Is there a manufacturing/quality reason?
Well you got me. The speculation above on Atlas being able to reduce price per unit based on the economies of scale may be a big reason. Note however that relative prices fluctuate, and often Micro Engineering is cheaper than Atlas. Last time I checked the local shop that was the case.
As for quality, while the spike detail on Atlas is heavier than the others the plastic they use is more brittle. I seem to break more spike heads on Atlas than ME, but overall it's engineered to be easy and quick to use.
Walthers/Shinohara has somewhat large spike heads, but ease of use is similar to ME (i.e. more work than Atlas). It's kind of the worst of both worlds in that respect, but it's priced consistently higher than ME or Atlas.
I haven't used Peco, so can't assess their product. Their US prototype code 83 flex always seems to be expensive relative to ME and Atlas, so I really haven't considered using it.
Rob Spangler
Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer. Yes, you can mix and match, but with some effort that can be avoided if you use only one brand. In my case, I need a variety of curved turnouts, and Walthers/Shinohara has the most complete line by far. Their flex track ties and spike details are good (not large), and so far, I have not found it difficult with which to work; also, I like the ability to use small spikes for attachment as opposed to adhesive or track nails.
Dante
Micro Engineering is a far smaller firm than Atlas -- and indeed those of use who know and like their products are well aware that from time to time they are in short supply. Many reasonably well equipped hobby shops do not carry the full line of M-E flex track. That factor impacts price.
There are of course visual differences too -- the Atlas flex track has what some jokers have referred to as shoe boxes holding the rails. M-E is finer in appearance and is sometimes used by those who mix handlaid track with flex. That higher quality also impacts price.
But the biggest difference from a practical standpoint is this: Atlas is the most flexible and easiest to curve flex track. M-E is far stiffer and indeed, I use a variety of track laying tools from Ribbonrail to bend Micro Engineering flex track to the correct curve -- and to make the tangents more straight. It holds the curve by itself which Atlas does not do. Both forms of flex track have their advantages in the right situation but many modelers using flex track for the first time after graduating from sectional track like the ease of curving Atlas flex track. (I remember the initial Atlas flex track with fibre ties and it too was very hard to curve -- and when Atlas first had plastic tie flex track it also was much stiffer).
I would go so far as to say that the term "flex track" is misapplied to two such very different products as Atlas and M-E. I would say M-E is curvable or bendable but not flexible, while Atlas is truly flexible. Different techniques are called for to curve and lay the two brands. Both have their place.
Dave Nelson
Enough with this wimpy code 83 track! The LION uses code 100 track, and has done so for the past 50 years! LION finds Atlas Flex Track at $5.25 ea at the LHS. But LIONS do not pay that much money for track. Him bought Model Power at $3.20 ea (a bundle of 100 pieces) from his old LHS in Brooklyn, NY ☺
They sell the Atlas for $4.something in bundles of 25. LIONS are not impressed. And the LION likes the detail on the Model Power product better than the detail on the Atlas product. Atlas as was said is flexible, Model Power is "Bendable", which the LION likes better. All of it is made in China, so shipping etc is a push.
The catalog price (MSRP) is a fake, so that you can get a "DEAL!" from your LHS. After all, he's such a good guy, you know, and you do want to keep him in business. But Dave in Bismarck is handy and near by (well 75 miles one way--so never a trip in itself) but not so well stocked. He pays less in rent that Paul (in Brooklyn) and has far fewer employees to pay (1 vs lots), but Paul still comes up with the better price, because he can buy in HUGE quantities directly from the manufacturer. Dave has to buy them one at a time from Walthers, or maybe Athearn. I have to pay tax when I buy from Dave, but I have to pay shipping when I buy from Paul, and shipping is generally much more than taxes. Sometimes when I visit Paul's shop in Brooklyn, I have him ship my purchases to North Dakota, then I get to pay taxes and shipping, but at least I do not get an extra baggage charge on the airplane.
To make a short story long... there are many factors that go into the price of an item. Do not compare the price: Compare the VALUE!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
dante Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer.
Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer.
I think that's an important point.
I'm committed to using The Walthers/Shinohara turnouts. And the Shinohara flex track has the same tie profile as the turnouts - which means (for me) it's easier to use.
CharlieM90 dante: Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer. I think that's an important point. I'm committed to using The Walthers/Shinohara turnouts. And the Shinohara flex track has the same tie profile as the turnouts - which means (for me) it's easier to use.
dante: Compare the products side-by-side in order to make a decision based on appearance. But I would make a decision based on whose turnouts you prefer.
Turnouts do create another overlay in this discussion. Unless you are going to handlay them or use fast tracks, I see little way to get around using at least some of the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts as they are the only ones making a wide selection of curved turnouts in code 83.
Micro Engineering Turnouts are also steps ahead of the others in my book on appearance but they make only a No. 6. I have used lots of them on the current layout mixed with Shinohara, scratchbuilt and other brands here and there where I needed other configurations and sizes. I haven't had much difficulty using ME flex and other brands of turnouts in terms of height differences etc....
I do think that it is important to look at the turnout brands but I wouldn't let the choice of turnout drive the choice of flex track. With turnouts you do have to make some decisions about reliability, looks, cost and time spent. If I had it to over again, I would probably go with fast tracks for most of my turnouts.
Of course opinions do vary,
Were I to follow your reasoning, I would use Shinohara products exclusively. They are the only ones on the American market accurately scaled for HOj - 1:80 scale Japanese prototype on 16.5mm gauge track.
OTOH, I am Ebeneezer Scrrge II when it comes to spending $$$, and Shinohara is NOT the low-price spread! Add in that I am fond of puzzle palace specialwork, odd radii and non-standard track configurations that can't be assembled out of anything that comes in a box or bubble pack. So I use Atlas flex (including concrete tie Code 83) and hand-lay all of my specialwork in place.
Assuming that I could convince Shinohara components to align into the yard throat and station approach at the down end of Tomikawa, the MSRP of those commercial products would exceed the probable cost of ALL of my projected JNR trackwork. Just the savings on a pair of double slips would provide me with kitbash fodder for another unit train.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - flex track, handlaid specialwork)
wp8thsubAs for quality, while the spike detail on Atlas is heavier than the others the plastic they use is more brittle. I seem to break more spike heads on Atlas than ME, but overall it's engineered to be easy and quick to use. Walthers/Shinohara has somewhat large spike heads, but ease of use is similar to ME (i.e. more work than Atlas). It's kind of the worst of both worlds in that respect, but it's priced consistently higher than ME or Atlas. I haven't used Peco, so can't assess their product. Their US prototype code 83 flex always seems to be expensive relative to ME and Atlas, so I really haven't considered using it.
Yes, thats my experience too. I've found it is easy to break the rail out of the spike heads on the Atlas code 83 if you are rough with it. But I have always liked the ease of flexing and laying Atlas code 100 and 83 vs the other "fine scale" track, like ME or Walthers/Shinohara.
Economy is also part of the picture because cost of track can really add up. In the past I've mail ordered track in small bundles to save money. Also to save money I used generic Atlas code 100 flex for staging were appearance isn't important, and Atlas code 83 as a compromise between looks and cost for mainline track. I've used Walthers Code 70 in years for closer to scale appearance.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
If you are using Walthers structures, you might have to use Walthers tracks. For example the walthers turntable uses walters code 83 track. The tie thickness difference between Atlas and Walthers.
So if you use Atlas as the fan tracks on the turntable, you'll quickly discover that your railhead is too high for the turntable track.
That said, I like Walthers turnouts. I would prefer ME stuff, but their selection is limited. So for consistancy sake, I use Walthers.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
tomikawaTT Part of the difference is cost of manufacture at point of origin. Present-day Atlas is manufactured in China. Shinohara (imported by Walthers) is manufactured in Japan. Peco is a product of the United Kingdom. I don't know where other brands come from, but wherever they come from the manufacturer had to pay all the usual costs of business, plus taxes.
I know Chuck posted this back in 2011, but since RWVinson resurrected this thread it's worth pointing out that Micro Engineering track is made in Fenton, Missouri.
Steve S
Steven S I know Chuck posted this back in 2011, but since RWVinson resurrected this thread it's worth pointing out that Micro Engineering track is made in Fenton, Missouri.
Steve, is the track actually made in Missouri, or is that simply the location of ME ?
They make it there, there was an article in a recent issue of MRH where they did a visit to the plant.'
Prior to the late 80's or so, the company was actually Rail Craft. Been around and advertising in MR since the 60's. In the name traisition timeframe, the ads would be for Micro Engineering, with products like Railcraft track.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker They make it there, there was an article in a recent issue of MRH where they did a visit to the plant.' Prior to the late 80's or so, the company was actually Rail Craft. Been around and advertising in MR since the 60's. In the name traisition timeframe, the ads would be for Micro Engineering, with products like Railcraft track. --Randy
I'll be darned, something actually made in the USA.
It's the November 2012 issue...
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/back-issues
There's also a video showing a section of flex track being made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p02-uEUHiI&
It takes longer than I would have expected. He makes two passes to get a single piece of track. It takes about a minute total.
I use Shinohara code 70 track and turnouts, always bought for way less than Atlas as far as price is concerned!
If you look on the bottom of a piece, you can see how the tie sections are in 4 pieces, one for each press you see in the video. No doubt a larger machine could do the whole 3' section in one pass, but that would require an expensive new machine AND expensive new dies.
Also, made the links clickable
Steven S It's the November 2012 issue... http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/back-issues There's also a video showing a section of flex track being made. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p02-uEUHiI& It takes longer than I would have expected. He makes two passes to get a single piece of track. It takes about a minute total. Steve S
After watching the video, I'm shocked at the lack of a more productive method.
I also used Atlas code 83 flex, I have about 7 boxes on my layout so I'm glad I built my layout 5 years ago. Mine came from NHS Hobbies, about the cheapest place to get track and turnouts and they have free shipping, might want to check them out, Jim.
The tooling to produce track with finer details is more expensive, the process of manufacturing it is not; or, maybe just slightly slower. All of the producers need to recoup the cost of the tooling over some period of time, whether Code 100/83/70/55/40, doesn't matter. Obviously, when the amortization of the tooling cost is complete the company could reduce the price of the product some as the tooling has been paid for. However, why leave that money on the table? Also, when Code 83 was a new product, there was less demand for it so it commandeered a higher price. When demand for Code 83 increased over time, I think the manufacturers asked themselves why should they leave that money on the table, also?
Don't kid yoursleves profit is what the manufacturers are after and I don't begrudge them for it and want them to be successful at they're business!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626 ....All of the producers need to recoup the cost of the tooling over some period of time, whether Code 100/83/70/55/40, doesn't matter. Obviously, when the amortization of the tooling cost is complete the company could reduce the price of the product some as the tooling has been paid for.
....All of the producers need to recoup the cost of the tooling over some period of time, whether Code 100/83/70/55/40, doesn't matter. Obviously, when the amortization of the tooling cost is complete the company could reduce the price of the product some as the tooling has been paid for.
Unfortunately, dies and tooling have a limited life span. Depending on how the dies and tooling were made, refurbishment can be cheap or very expensive (think replacement). Hard steel dies are the most expensive to create, but the longest lasting. As the dies wear, cast detail is not as crisp, and there are considerably more rejects in the finished product. Model railroad manufacturers often take advantage of die refurbishment to make minor detail changes in the finished product.
The molds for resin kits typically last only 2 batches of 30 casts before the reject rate gets too high, and the mold needs replacing. Steel molds for plastic casting generally need refurbishing/cleanup before a 1,000 casts are made. Aluminum molds are somewhere in the middle.
However, why leave that money on the table? Also, when Code 83 was a new product, there was less demand for it so it commandeered a higher price. When demand for Code 83 increased over time, I think the manufacturers asked themselves why should they leave that money on the table, also? Don't kid yoursleves profit is what the manufacturers are after and I don't begrudge them for it and want them to be successful at they business!
Don't kid yoursleves profit is what the manufacturers are after and I don't begrudge them for it and want them to be successful at they business!
I don't believe any model railroad manufacturer - certainly not the family-owned ones - looks at money left on the table - in other words, charging the maximum the market will bear. Most got their start as providing a product or service to themselves and friends, where they tried to keep the price at just enough to break even. As (if) the business grew, raising the prices enough to support the full-time costs of the owners and employees has always been a problem. Which is why many small manufacturers pack it in after a decade - they lost their hobby, and they couldn't raise their prices enough to take their work from a labor of love to a solid business, and they could no longer justify the mess they were in.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
Steel molds for plastic casting generally need refurbishing/cleanup before a 1,000 casts are made.
That would be every few days for M.E., and every day for larger operations. Sounds dubious.