Cool!
Looks like you have a bit more space and less restrictions then I'm dealing with but would sure like to hear and see updates about your build. I hope you plan (or have already) cut down that 6" tree next to the foundation! What's you plan for HVAC as it look like you might be a South facing house as well given the shadows?
Most my leaves left for Kansas after that wind storm that came through the other day. At least no damages at our house but one up the block as gotten a few broken tress...
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
Stourbridge Lion In honor of reaching my 500th post here I bring you my HO Dream / Nightmare; you know the one, BIG DREAM, little space...
In honor of reaching my 500th post here I bring you my HO Dream / Nightmare; you know the one, BIG DREAM, little space...
Well, here's my dream....just about fifteen miles north of yours over by City Park and the Natural History Museum!!! (I've gotten some more done since this time, but I haven't had time to take pictures....too busy raking leaves for one thing!)
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
Champlain Division The latest issue has a track plan I think may work well for you because it has the potential to be expanded to three levels. IIRC, it's the B&M/B&A one. Rick Shivik
The latest issue has a track plan I think may work well for you because it has the potential to be expanded to three levels. IIRC, it's the B&M/B&A one.
Rick Shivik
Boston & Maine and Boston & Albany share the rails on this double-deck HO scale plan
URL: <Click Here>
Rick/Others,
Yes, this and another track plan I was looking at that was similar is what my crazy design basically simulates. Looking at the December 2011 issue, that plan is based on a "4'-8" x 16'-8" using a minimum radii of 24" and a 2.6% maximum grade; mainline of 150'. So, it looks like it is using a 24" radii inner helix with 4" clearance between track levels. Do you agree? Is the outer helix 27" radii?
My space is "8'-8"x17'-8" so I have about the same length and almost 2x the depth to work with. So, do you think Plan#3 should use a Double Helix on the right vs. the Single at each end that Plan #2 had?
What do people think about the B&M / B&A plan for access, etc.
With the redesign of Level #4 based on a Double Helix hiding under the mountain now, also came the redo of the topography and where the tunels will likely get placed. I also placed three (3) colored boxes as potential place holders for major Minging Operation structures. The tightness of space will likely mean the upper tracks will be supported by vertical retaining walls rahter the slopes. The Inner Helix climbs higher then the Outer Helix such the Inner can cross over the Outer and exits onto the Layout west bound out of the mountain at the high point. The Outer first enters onto the layout heading north within the mintain and then exits onto the Layout west bound out of the mountain at the low point. So, we still have the "S" curve in place with a straight section in the middle the is inside the mountain. So, no matter what direction of travel, when the train it reaches Level#4 it will exit the mountain in a western direction, turn south then east, and then turn north back into the mountain before it hits the "S" curve. From there the train will pop out of the mauntain two more times before exiting Level#4 down the other part of the Helix and return to Level#3. So, I can now place a train onto the mainline in DC operation mode and let it run the full loop over all four levels without the need for an operator to throw switches at various points for reverse loop operations as there are no more reverse loops in the design required mainline travel. So, what do you think now??????? Before After
With the exspansion (Single to Double) of the Helix from Level#3 to Level#4 I found I needed to basically rebuild Level#4 from scratch while still trying to maintain this level as a Mining District. Now, any train can enter/ext Level#4 as part of the overall Main Line in an operatorless mode. I kept the one siding in place to leave Ore Cars at. The Inner Helix is at the 22" Radii to keep that as the mimimum radii throughout the layout. Before After
Please feel free to post away anything that might help me work on Plan #3 given my tight space.
There isn't much more of Plan#2 Alternatives to post, just have Level #4 to go...
Further exploring the Bottom of the Layout subject:
Assuming you'll use commercially available dimensional lumber, that means a 1x4 horizontally on its side with either 1/2" or 3/4' plywood sub-roadbed on its top edge, then cork roadbed, then track. This will set your minimum lowest possible track elevation, at the railhead, at 34 3/8". I personally will rip my 1x4s on a table saw and cut them down to make them exactly 0.75 x 3" which will enable an elevation of 33 7/8" using 1/2" sub-roadbed. For the reason of minimum benchwork thickness I stay away from L-Girder construction and use primarily Open Grid. L-Girder adds an extra 3/4" of benchwork thickness that I neither need nor want.
My layout is multi-level with track elevations ranging from 28" to 80". I have five levels: Lower Staging at 28 & 30", Level One 30 to 45", Level Two 45 to 60", Level Three 60 to 75" and Upper Staging 75 to 80". That's Lower & Upper Hidden Staging with three sceniced levels sandwiched in between, each separated by an average of 15" in track elevation. It enables me to achieve a mainline run of at least 300 feet on the sceniced levels alone. This is in a 12' x 25' basement garage. I think you can see why I strive to make each level to a minimum thickness.
However, I don't want to hijack your thread, so I won't post my track plans as attachments. If you want to see my plans I can email them to you if you, or anyone else, would like to if you'll contact me offline.
HO D&H Champlain Division
Thanks once again Rick as this is EXACTLY the useful constructive critique of Plan #2 I'm looking for before I begin Plan #3. Being 6'5" / 265 I won't be standing up in any Helix but the "Chair" idea is wonderful! The tough part in Plan #3 will be trying to see if / how I can work in a 30" plus helix. Also hearing the base of the layout should start at 30" is also useful because trust me I was wondering how I would access the inside of helix at a baseline of 24" and then get up onto my knees within it give the radii. That extra 6" might also push the upper limit of the Right & Middle sections so I wil have to watch that in Plan #3 as well.
Trust me too cuyama I understand how CAD can mislead you but when this will likely be my one and only build for my HO layout I am willing to put hundreds of hours in "What If" games using CAD before I start any build. I live near the Tunnel District in Colorado that is just west of Denver and Level #1 and #2 are deliberately designed to have the train vanish into the mountain side before showing up again so yes there will be lots of "hidden" track to accomplish that. By design Level #3 is the only "flat" area where track is exposed to represent a Roundhouse era setup. Level #4 which has extreme limited space is to be a "Mining District" that if only short engines / cars can reach it that's fine since that would have been true in the Gold/Silver rush days of Narrow Gauge short-lines.
I have a place in the basement where my N Scale layout will go which will get started well before the HO and does not have the crazy space issues. So, I will have a chance to learn track work skills there as I fully understand that for the HO layout to work in such a tight space will require solid track work to limit derailments. Since all this will likely be my Model RR Hobby time for the next 20+ years this is why I'm designing around DC since technology can change allot in that time so not putting in $$$ for DCC stuff that would be out of date by the time I get to that point. Besides, if this is just going to be a operator-less loop one does not need DCC to operate it.
Stourbridge Lion wrote: "So, how does one access all sides of a Helix and yet keep it hidden from view. Does the access have to be from below to get into the interior? This is what I think is my biggest access nightmare..."
A hidden helix must be built for crawl-under access and service from the inside only. It is best generally to build it with at least a 1/8" thick by 1.5" tall hardboard/masonite/cardboard/plexiglass fence or guardrail attached to the outside edge of whatever sub-roadbed material you choose to use to prevent trains from tumbling off levels to the outside during inevitable derailments. The best way, though, is to wrap the structure like a cylinder in any of the aforementioned materials and forget about accessing it from the outside. (Crawl-under" access is generally defined as being built to allow a person to pass underneath on hands and knees. This bottom of the layout height is generally 30".)
Further, if you build your levels to allow a hand to reach in over a stalled/derailed train on 30" radius curves this will work out to a spiral grade of between 2.3 and 2.5%. A quality HO diesel, reasonably weighted, can easily pull six passenger cars or 15 freight cars weighing in at NMRA specs up such a grade without string-lining.
Finally, build it so you can either sit comfortably in a swivel chair inside it or fully stand up to service and operate it.
Also, let me make this abundantly clear.......the equipment you're desiring to operate is going to require a minimum curve radius of 30 inches, especially in a helix. You'll need "bullet proof" track work in there too. In fact, any hidden track must be built to the highest standards to ensure reliable operation.
My dollar three eighty on that,
Stourbridge LionSo, how does one access all sides of a Helix and yet keep it hidden from view. Does the access have to be from below to get into the interior? This is what I think is my biggest access nightmare...
Well, it's not your only access nightmare.
These layouts are impractial on my many levels, pardon the pun. Even if they could be built as drawn, which is unlikely, they couldn't be maintained. And much of the track couldn't be seen from normal viewing angles. Just because CAD allows you to draw something or view it, that doesn't mean it will work in real plywood and plaster.
Since you identified yourself as a beginner earlier, these explorations of incredibly complex layouts seem nonproductive to me, but that's just my opinion.
Seems like it would be better for now to focus on building a small layout in whatever space and time you have available. Get some experience with what it takes to build, scenic, and maintain a layout.
This will tell you a lot more about model railroading than a thousand hours in CAD revisions, IMHO.
I won't interrupt your flights of fancy again. Edit: If you think this is a fun exercise on its own, of course, have at it. But in my opinion, this is not the best path to actual model railroading -- if that is your goal.
Good luck.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama "Not Accessible" is "Not Feasible".
"Not Accessible" is "Not Feasible".
I agree
So, how does one access all sides of a Helix and yet keep it hidden from view. Does the access have to be from below to get into the interior? This is what I think is my biggest access nightmare...
Stourbridge Lion this crazy design that is at least closer the feasible but creates some access nightmares...
Do to the alterations of Level#3 though, the landscape did have to change some on both Level#3 as well as on Level#2. Mainly because of the creation of the Double Helix on the East/Right side where only a single Helix once was. The new design has the Outer Helix apprached from over the River/Waterfall so I have extended the mountain outward there which slightly alter the location of the Level #2 tunnel below it. Also the High Bridge on Level#2 was shorten given the Double Helix slope so the train will enter the tunnel there much sooner then before. The River/Waterfall has also move North/Up a few inches again do to the Double Helix. Before After
Thanks for the tip, I will look for it...
With the space the only way to have a long main-line is to go vertical but also wanting to run my D&H 4-6-6-4 Challenger with Heavyweight Passenger cars as well as my PA fleet with their passenger cars I need some sort of helix in the design yet keep the radii as tight as I can get away with.
Poor Plan #1 was one continues winding helix trying to do dog-bone figure 8's but the grades got out of hand trying to not double back along the same path. Trying to fix the grades I exceeded my height limit so I scrapped it for this crazy design that is at least closer the feasible but creates some access nightmares...
I have completed alterations on Level#3 to remove the Reverse Loops to allow a train to operate throughout the layout without the need for an operator. At this level I have setup removed the two facing Reverse Loops are replaced it with a loop that has a Double Cross-Over to allow change of direction when desired. I have also changed the Right/East Helix into a Double Helix for alterations to Level #4 that will also be needed. Overall, Level#3 has not realy change visually from the old design. Before After
Also, you can see that the layout has not changed much from the visitors view with the Level#1 Alternative alterations. Might have to rethink how I might use the WEST side shelf area now that trains will little use it; but, can still be a nice Era diorama that I can choose to pull trains through while staging operations are in effect. Maybe a modern Station design such as Denver Union Station that I can add a siding track into where passenger cars can sit without being in the way for switch/staging operations. Hmm, not a bad idea that just hit me for that spot! Before After
Thanks Again Rick!
I do hope that when I get closer to real construction to join one of the many clubs in the area
Yep,......scary!
Three quick suggestions:
Get Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong
http://www.kalmbachstore.com/12148.html
and Designing and Building Multi-Deck Model Railroads by Tony Koester
http://www.kalmbachstore.com/12148.html and
see if you can find a round-robin model railroad run session group or a model railroad club in your area.
More later
I started my first HO layout before heading to collage that was a simple 6x12 oval with a figure 8 within it as a mountain route. The track got put down and was operational without scenery and then it got ripped up by my parents and what was salvageable they put into a box. Many a year has passed since. I built a small N Scale X-Max tree layout that is very basic that I put away in storage that holds a 4' tree in the middle and no scenery was done there either. It was setup as two blocks so I could run two DC trains or one over both sections using the crossover between them. It also had a siding that a third train could sit on. The below photo has some of the track already removed (elevated section) before it went into storage.
So yes, this HO design will be way out of my league right now but I will get a chance to start on my first real N Scale layout plan in the basement in the next year which has plenty of space and it's inside so no HVAC concerns. The space that I plan for the N Scale is not conducive for the HO at all nor will it be anywhere near as complex. It will though give me lots of time to learn skills needed to build the HO in whatever layout design in gets finalized in this nasty / tight space...
The N Scale layout is not yet design but I thinking it will be more based on true D&H routes
Testing, one, two, three.
Halleluia. Firefox did the trick. Thanks, Darren!
What's your layout building experience?
No issues here as I am looking for constructive critique and yes I agree CAD can lead you down a dark path. I don't know is this design will ever get built but at least using CAD in this way lets me play allot of "What-If" ideas without doing any real construction. It will likely still be a few years before the walls get added to the room so lots of time to try different ideas via CAD. Like I started this crazy topic, BIG DREAM, little space...
One idea I have to help with the access issues is to put this on wheels so I could get to the North and East sides fee of scenery by rolling this away from the walls. I'm truly looking to build a long main line using the entire space as a gigantic helix which is why the four level idea right now...
I always hesitate to comment on poster's plans, because, let's face it, most don't really seem to want constructive critique.
But I would suggest in this case that it's possible that you are being misled by the CAD program showing you points of view that wouldn't be achieved.
From normal viewing angles, it seems to me that you're just not going to see very much of this at one time (if it could be built). And what you see may not appear logically connected.
That, plus the difficulty of reaching some pretty extensive and complex trackage, makes me suggest that you consider something a lot simpler in that scale and space. Just my humble opinion.
OK, I have reworked Level#1 to remove the required Reverse Loop for continual operation. Our "train" will still leave the Hidden Staging Yard as before (Clockwise) and join onto the Main Line and then make the big turn back towards the grade to head towards the Tunnel District on Level #2. The difference is the Main Line is no long a Reverse Loop and thus any train the enters into Level#1 from the Helix from Level#3 will can continure it's journey through Level#1 on just the Main Line without the need for a reverse loop. The Hidden Staging Yard has also changed, thier is now a Wye in the SW corner as well as a optional Reverse Loop. Through both of these Stage Yard options, I can turn around a train to go either direction on the Main Line; but, the Wye might have a tighter radii on the northerly path then 22" so I might have a restriction on what Engines/Cars can take that route. If I can adjust that curve to be ~22" radii, then I believe my entire roster can use the WYE. Level#2 does not require changes based on Level#1 as the apporach to Level#2 via the grade on the North side has gone unchanged in location or grade. So, onto Level#3 for it's alternative design to remove it's Reverse Loop requirements. Before After
Something that someone caught when I ran this topic on another forum was I said this plan was to run DC continuously (hands-free operation) and Reverse Loops; What was I thinking!!!!!!!
Anyway, this next section of posts coming are the alterations I made to the design to make it DC friendly.
It's also been pointed out the Helix radii might be to tight for the planned cars so I'm not sure what I can do about that given the space restrictions. If folks have ideas while I re-post the rest of this crazy design idea please speak up...
This 3D view of topography for Level #4 does not show the topography for the other levels as it truly is design to be offset as a seperate section and thus the topographies are not joined. The Purple structure in the image is there to designate a Mining Complex to load cars with Coal/Ore from a mine up on the mountain side above that will reach basically to the ceailing of the room. Once our "train" leaves Level #4 via the same right helix it travel on to get their, it returns to Level #3 Our "train" now exits a tunnel portal on the inner track in the SE corner, crosses over a switch, then once again travels over the High Curved Wooded Trestle, over the narrow straight away, and over to the plateau. To continue our downward journey, our train will turn southernly at the switch and then must make a choice of using the outer trackage or the inner trackage as they are two different paths downward. The outer trackage can be used to now take the long slide through the Tunnel District of Level #2 we just travel through "OR", switch onto the inner trackage we have yet to travel over. By using the inner trackage, we will enter into the tunnel just to the right of the Roundhouse and onto the left helix that will spiral the train down to Level#1, bypassing the Tunnel District. Since the Tunnel District is a "One Train" route and I wanted the option to run more then one train at a time, I needed a way to sneak trains between Level#3 and Level #1. So, while one train can be moving from Level#2 to either Level #3 (upward) or Level #1 (downward), another train can move between Level #3 and Level #1, bypassing Level#2 completely, via the right helix. There is no helix access from/to Level#2, trains on Level#2 just travel around the left and right helix areas. I can also keep a train running on Level#4 while another uses Level#3 (technically another yet running around Level#1) circling those levels indefinitly. Once a train enters onto Level#2 though, dispatch needs to clear Level#1 or Level#3 (based on direction of travel) of traffic; otherwise, be ready for trouble when the train on Level#2 exists onto another level! As trains travel downward from either Level #2 or the Level#3 helix they once again reach Level #1 A train using the Level #3 Helix will enter a grade on the inside of the hidden storage yard or via the Level #2 grade on the outside of the hidden storage yard. Both routes join at a switch along the eastern wall and exit back onto the layout via a tunnel portal. The train can now use the reverse loop to start the upward travel again OR switch towards the hidden staging yard to let another train start the journey.