The previous thread had gotten way long, so I thought I'd post progress reports on here. As a recap, I'm building a 10x12 irregular donut that looks like this (slight mods have been done in regards to the shape of the structure as construction has progressed):
First night of construction- I divided the irregular shape of the structure into 6 "tables," and I form cut 4 inches of foamular to match each.
Starting to cut the last plywood cutout. Due to slight mods in other sections and slight inaccuracies while drawing, I had to derive the shape of the last plywood cutout again:
Good fit, notice my furry helper who pooped sawdust for a day:
I shortly after cut the 1x4 plywood framework, however one portion of 1x4s warped...and I had to work a lot, so a hiatus was taken. After revisiting my gameplan, I jumped in again and began building the framework:
You can see the matched 1x4's for one of the sections... The warped 1x4's (that played a role on only one of the sections) have posed a minimal problem in the final fit checks. 3 down 3 to go here:
More to come.... thanks to all here for their advice and invaluable help!
Hold my beer... ya'll watch this!
Today and tonight I tackled the most complex of the 1x4 support structures and performed the final fit check before raising it all off the ground.
Just finished building the second most irregular section... the underside view:
Half way through the last section. I cut all the 1x4's for it tonight after ensuring a good fit after the all the other sections were done. A slight mod had to be done, and here we are... had to get a bit creative on this one:
Done! Getting ready for the last fit check:
Good fit! Now to get it all off the ground in the coming days:
More updates to come!
80ktsClamp - this is going to be an interesting layout you have started to build. Looking forward to seeing more pictures as you progress!
hi Clamp
before you start laying track, have a look at some possible changes.
have fun
Paul
madog- Thanks! I'm looking forward to building it. I'm finalizing how i want to do the legs over the next couple days.
Paul- Thanks for that! I really like your suggestions... I need to digest some parts a bit more vs. the operation I'm going to be doing.
Hi Clamp,
That looks like your having a lot of fun, wish I could be there working with you. So far it looking great, can't wait to see more. Do you plan to finish the train room off before or after the bench work is up?
Thanks
Sam
Sam, finishing the basement (which is partially finished from when we bought the house) isn't on the radar for at least another 5 years.... and this is located in the utility room area which likely will never be finished as long as I'm in the house.
The layout is designed to be able to be disconnected and moved with just disconnecting the wires, breaking apart (using a fine saw) the surface plaster, and cutting the track. While still a fairly large task... it's not the end of the world (or even worse the end of the layout that I'm spending so much time on).
Sure would be nice to have the help when putting the legs on the big section! Going to have to call the neighbor to help me when it's time to get that thing up on it's feet. I'm researching adjustable table feet to go on each leg which should help with some good accuracy in the final, leveled product.
All the best,
-Denny
I'd suggest you make that set-up modular. Put legs on each section. Bolt the sections together. That way if you have to move it when you finish the basement you won't have to damage it.
Springfield PA
If there is any way you can finish the ceiling, you should. A finished ceiling will help keep the layout clean. You would be amazed how much dust will sift thru the floor above. Good luck on the build.
Paul, I've incorporated your suggestions on the mainline, as well as one of them in the yard/town/service area, comments after the scan:
1. I've already bought the turnouts that were required for the version in the first post, so that had to come into consideration. (#7 L curved: 1....#6L: 7...#6R: 13...#5 L: 6...#5 R: 3). They are all Peco Code 83, with primarily #6's being used in the mainline and 5's in the yard type areas. The L curved 7 was required for maintaining the arc in the yard entry (yard entry is R6 (splitting the "town service from the yard), L curved 7, then further splitting with L5 and R5).
2. Starting from the top portion of the layout just after where the siding joins back into the double main, I believe I originally had that as a pair of L turnouts for the crossover for the runaround, but someone told me that may lead to a derail problem. Frankly, I don't see the physics of how it could, but I still shifted it to the 2 R's that you see in the first post. This now is back to a more original position...
3. After the yard entry again with the left crossover, followed by the left turnout into the siding, that one on the other hand does raise a flag on a derailment with your modification. Did you use a double slip in your modelling? In my mental "chair flying" (as we call it in the aviation biz), I believe the R turnouts as previously pictured may work just fine for the runaround.
4: I really liked your idea on the runaround on the right side of the yard that is the area that also services the town, so I shifted the 5Rs that I already hadin another position in the yard up to that. Excellent idea that saved me some serious headaches likely.
5. The stuff that you did to the left side of the yard is very interesting, but that's not actually the function that portion. I've had a significant amount of time to envision the functionality of the yard, and have been acutely atune the yards that I fly over every day. Through that, I've developed significant functionality in my head, while maintaining awareness (and measuring) of the space requirements. However, I did modify it to give myself some more room:
a. The overall 6 track "yard" (as defined as all tracks on the spur off the mainline) has 4 compact functions: Car sorting, serving a couple local industries, intermodal loading/unloading, and engine/roadstrock servicing.
b. The left and longest track of the yard is actually an intermodal spur... It has open area to it's left to allow for the loading and unloading of at least one 5 maxi III well car group. The barb that shoots off and makes a wide separation from the rest is for engine and roadstock servicing, and that area will mostly be a level concrete surface to facilitate free equipment and roadstock movement as you see in intermodal yards (while this is obviously not something you actually see in real modern intermodal yards, the logic and some functionality is maintained while compromising for space and cost).
b. As far as the separated spur, the lower portion is the actual engine servicing and crew change area with the office, and the upper portion is a small area for roadstock servicing... likely the concrete won't extend any further past the track running down to the service track than it has to for the vehicles to load the intermodal well cars (not planning on using a crane... just a lift of some sort. It might even be somewhat imaginary). The roadstock servicing is more imaginary and technically the infrastructure for that is all off the layout where the pit is. Also, most of the intermodal container storage and vehicle movement is in imagination land in the pit.
c. as you can see, I modified the flow into the roadstock/engine servicing spur to allow a wider berth for intermodal ops. I actually got the idea while looking at satellite photos of yards... Google Earth is an amazing tool.
Whew. Anyways, thanks for the help.. it is truly appreciated! All suggestions are welcomed from all parties as always.
Hamltnblue I'd suggest you make that set-up modular. Put legs on each section. Bolt the sections together. That way if you have to move it when you finish the basement you won't have to damage it.
That is exactly what I'm doing! .... except I will have to break through (read: precision cut) some plaster and track in between each section prior to separation. I have such a tremendous volume of foamular left over that I will not have to do a complete plaster/newspaper overlay. The foamular stacks already match the section boundaries on the lower 4 engines, and that will continue (albeit with more pain.... but it will def be worth it) as far up as the terrain needs to go. It will be covered in sculptamold. Max grade will only be about 3 degrees... All 6 of the individual tables will be joined by carriage bolts
I'm currently engineering my wiring method which will allow ease of disconnecting when that time does come. It will likely involve drilling holes in the 1x4's for the wiring bundles to route underneath the individual sections and "popping up" as necessary for track feeders. In between each section I will have basically just a male female connector that will be slung underneath the joint.
While great planning is necessary... this is a great learning journey for me as well in engineering all this stuff to meet my needs. Loving it!
hi Clamp,
it might be to late, but i advice you to build a lift out section. During the build and later when operating an easy access to the operating pit, without having to duck under, will turn out to be an asset.
Again if possible, i would try to make the run around in the yard longer. The first crossover might be build further down, next to the double siding.
Smile
Paul, a liftout section was considered, but it did not make it to the final plan. With the design of the layout, ducking under will not be problem vs. the limitations it would create in what I want to do scenery wise.
I'll fiddle with a longer runaround in the yard tonight.
Thanks for all your suggestions!
Here we have the benchwork coming along... I installed all of the legs except the ones on the large section. I still have to brace the legs that need it, and as well as install furniture feet for levelling:
80ktsClamp Here we have the benchwork coming along... I installed all of the legs except the ones on the large section. I still have to brace the legs that need it, and as well as install furniture feet for levelling:
Clamp.
I just came across your thread. It looks like a good plan and your bench-work looks pretty good also but I have a recommendation. I would add some diagonal bracing to the legs to make it more steady. Also, as someone who spent 41+ years in the HVAC industry as a Serviceman and Service Supervisor, I have a couple of pieces of advise re. the furnace and water heater before you go to far.
1) That water heater appears from the pictures to be sitting on a rather flimsy looking stand. It looks to my eyes like a 50 or possibly 60 gallon water heater and when full, would come in at around 650 to 750 pounds. Possibly a bit more. I would prefer to see it on a stand made of 1" pipe with a couple of pipe flanges secured to the basement floor.
2) The front of the gas furnace looks like it may be partially blocked by the bench-work. There are MINIMUM clearances required to service gas equipment and to combustible materials. This info can be found on the rating plate on the appliance. If your furnace fan burns out, the WHOLE BLOWER assembly has to be removed from the front to change the motor or blower. I only mention this because one cold ( -20* F ) night at about 3:00AM I had a service call for no heat. When I arrived, I found that the customer had at sometime previously renovated the basement and had built a concrete block wall less than 4" from the front of the furnace. Not only could I not service the furnace, I could not even remove the front panel. He then got madder than you-know-what at me because I would not fix ( read COULD NOT FIX ) his furnace.
If you have about 24" clearance from the front of the furnace, or you can move the layout 3 or 4 inches to the right, then you probably have no problems. Just my thoughts from 41+ years of experience.
I also concur with a previous poster about finishing the ceiling, even if it is only stapling some 6 mil. plastic to the ceiling and out away from the edges of the layout. For an outlay of 10 to 15 bucks and a 1/2 hour or so of your time, it will be worth it.
Good luck.
Blue Flamer.
Questions:
1. How do you plan on accessing the WH for service? Pilot light lighting?
2. same for the furnace....can you have a serviceman be able to get in there to do work without moving the layout? What about filter changes?
3. As mentioned by another poster you need to leave a clear space around the furnace for proper ventilation and positive airflow. If you don't there could be code violations (if you have a home inspector over for an appraisal or insurance purposes....even the HVAC repair person could refuse to work on the unit due to potential code violations)
4. Have you allowed for any terrain to go below the plywood surface? Do you anticipate or even want that?
5. Have you given any thought to lighting? What sort of fixtures, locations? It's easier to do that now while things are in the early stages, rather than later when you have track and scenery in place.
6. Do you have power outlets available? I couldn't see any in the pictures. Now is a good time to add extra outlets
7. Will you be adding backdrops? Will these attach to the layout or the walls?
8. Have you thought about future plans to finish off the space with drywall/ceiling? Is that even in the consideration?
Comments:
1. you WILL need cross bracing on those legs.
2. I know it's not always possible but always try to locate your layout away from things or items that will require servicing or access. If you can't at least have a plan on what you'll need to do when something does happen (and it will....I can guarantee it, because Mr Murphy was an optimist)
3. The section by the window looks like you'll have a long reach to get from the inside edge to the window edge....I'm just sayin'
You've made a good start....
-G-
Lateral-G Questions: 1. How do you plan on accessing the WH for service? Pilot light lighting? 2. same for the furnace....can you have a serviceman be able to get in there to do work without moving the layout? What about filter changes? 3. As mentioned by another poster you need to leave a clear space around the furnace for proper ventilation and positive airflow. If you don't there could be code violations (if you have a home inspector over for an appraisal or insurance purposes....even the HVAC repair person could refuse to work on the unit due to potential code violations) 4. Have you allowed for any terrain to go below the plywood surface? Do you anticipate or even want that? 5. Have you given any thought to lighting? What sort of fixtures, locations? It's easier to do that now while things are in the early stages, rather than later when you have track and scenery in place. 6. Do you have power outlets available? I couldn't see any in the pictures. Now is a good time to add extra outlets 7. Will you be adding backdrops? Will these attach to the layout or the walls? 8. Have you thought about future plans to finish off the space with drywall/ceiling? Is that even in the consideration? Comments: 1. you WILL need cross bracing on those legs. 2. I know it's not always possible but always try to locate your layout away from things or items that will require servicing or access. If you can't at least have a plan on what you'll need to do when something does happen (and it will....I can guarantee it, because Mr Murphy was an optimist) 3. The section by the window looks like you'll have a long reach to get from the inside edge to the window edge....I'm just sayin' You've made a good start.... -G-
Lateral (and this addresses the concerns from the previous poster):
1-3: You can't see it due to the camera angle, but it was actually planned with enough clearance for maintenance and such on both the WH and the furnace/a/c. However, I actually got concerned about Murphy last night and issues with replacing the water heater or furnace. The place where the picture is taken from is my utility area where I keep my lawnmower and such. I'm about 95% sure I'm going to flip flop the room and just move the layout over there (rotate it 180 degrees) and move my lawn/utility stuff to where the layout is now. I already measured last night, and I think it will actually make the room much more efficient.
4. The plywood is the "bedrock." A minimum base of 4 inches of foamular is matched to each of the benchwork sections which allows for sub track sculpting and what not.
5,6,8. That planning is in progress... I've got to install lighting and electrical outlets (and likely some ceiling stuff thanks to the concerns brought up earlier). I was waiting until i firmed up the final configuration of the room. We are close to that now, so I'll be able to move forward with that in the coming weeks.
7. There will be some limited backdrops over against the back corner... possibly against the entire area with the window as well. They will be fixed to the layout.
As far as the bracing for the legs... that is definitely going on! I wanted to make sure the leg configuration on the weird shaped sections worked before i engineered the bracing for them.
Thanks for the input!
80ktsClamp Lateral (and this addresses the concerns from the previous poster): 1-3: You can't see it due to the camera angle, but it was actually planned with enough clearance for maintenance and such on both the WH and the furnace/a/c. However, I actually got concerned about Murphy last night and issues with replacing the water heater or furnace. The place where the picture is taken from is my utility area where I keep my lawnmower and such. I'm about 95% sure I'm going to flip flop the room and just move the layout over there (rotate it 180 degrees) and move my lawn/utility stuff to where the layout is now. I already measured last night, and I think it will actually make the room much more efficient. 4. The plywood is the "bedrock." A minimum base of 4 inches of foamular is matched to each of the benchwork sections which allows for sub track sculpting and what not. 5,6,8. That planning is in progress... I've got to install lighting and electrical outlets (and likely some ceiling stuff thanks to the concerns brought up earlier). I was waiting until i firmed up the final configuration of the room. We are close to that now, so I'll be able to move forward with that in the coming weeks. 7. There will be some limited backdrops over against the back corner... possibly against the entire area with the window as well. They will be fixed to the layout. As far as the bracing for the legs... that is definitely going on! I wanted to make sure the leg configuration on the weird shaped sections worked before i engineered the bracing for them. Thanks for the input!
Glad to help.
Sounds like you are thinking things through, which is good. It looks like you have a walk-out basement. I do as well. I actually walled off and made a room specifically for my layout on one end of my basement. This way it's isolated from everything else in the basement and keeps people and pets out. Since it was to be my train room from the start I was able to put in all the electrical and lighting needs to begin with.
You may want to consider doing the same with your layout area. Just a thought....
have fun.
Thanks again, G!
My first task of the afternoon was to rearrange the basement and try the new layout location... low and behold, it's like it was designed to go in its new location!
Here is the equipment area now where the layout was:
Here is the new location where the yard equipment and such area was... It really frees up access to the room and the design around the water heater and such works really well in allowing better access to the layout. Plus, it is no longer blocking a window... and I think looks better:
So, next up is installing the legs on the main section, leg bracings, and then i'll need to get on the electrical and ceiling work.
I really like your layout and attention to detail. Just 3 suggestions. 1, move the layout legs in from the ends of the sections so that the layout has a cantilevered section at each end. this will cut down on warping of the longer sections as there will be shorter unsupported spans. It will also allow for connections to be made from one set of legs to another between sections which will stiffen the legs and can be used to keep the ends of the sections in alignment. Ex. an 8 foot long section would have the legs underneath at the 2 foot and 6 foot points. the longest span is now 4 feet instead of 8 feet.
2, use a short piece of track between sections when building so you will have a couple of expansion joints between sections and if you have to move it or expand it it will make that easier and more pain free. When doing your scenery if all that needs to be cut is the top layer it will make it easier still.
3, while everything is apart and can be separated paint all of the wood parts on all sides even if not exposed to view or covered with scenery later. By doing so you will seal allot the wood parts and dramatically reduce your seasonal expansion and contraction due to moisture and temperature variances.
Have a great time it is looking very good.
J.Rob I really like your layout and attention to detail. Just 3 suggestions. 1, move the layout legs in from the ends of the sections so that the layout has a cantilevered section at each end. this will cut down on warping of the longer sections as there will be shorter unsupported spans. It will also allow for connections to be made from one set of legs to another between sections which will stiffen the legs and can be used to keep the ends of the sections in alignment. Ex. an 8 foot long section would have the legs underneath at the 2 foot and 6 foot points. the longest span is now 4 feet instead of 8 feet. 2, use a short piece of track between sections when building so you will have a couple of expansion joints between sections and if you have to move it or expand it it will make that easier and more pain free. When doing your scenery if all that needs to be cut is the top layer it will make it easier still. 3, while everything is apart and can be separated paint all of the wood parts on all sides even if not exposed to view or covered with scenery later. By doing so you will seal allot the wood parts and dramatically reduce your seasonal expansion and contraction due to moisture and temperature variances. Have a great time it is looking very good.
Thanks for the compliments!
1- There actually is only 1 8-foot section, and that is the large one.. it will have legs at each end as well as at the mid point, thus giving appropriate support throughout the entire section. I actually tried to put the legs like you suggested on the shorter "large" sections (they are a tad over 6 feet)... it just didn't work as it brought the legs too close to the center point. I like your line of thought, and that's actually what i was shooting for. The bracing should make it very stable- it's going to be 2 or 3 braces attached to each leg at 90 degree points on the long pieces. I'm still desigining the method for the short sections.
2- Excellent idea!
3- Also great idea, and that one had not entered my thought process yet. Just a wood stain or what would you suggest? Also, foamular is going to be attached with liquid nails to the top. I am going to assume not to paint the top?
Thanks again, J. Rob!
DANGER DANGER DANGER
You need to move gas cans and any other flammable items from inside the house to a vented storage shed outside. Especially with a gas fired heating system and water heater. You also should consider securing the water heater to the wall. I agree with an earlier poster that the water heater stand seems very flimsy.
Noted on the gas... I'll have to figure out what to do with the gas cans. They've been in the room the whole 2 years we've lived here... just you haven't seen them yet. ;)
I attached the legs on the final section tonight.. It's neat seeing the final shape after all these months:
Just for poops and giggles, I grabbed my AC4400 and quarry to represent the size:
FINISHED! .... oh wait... got a ways to go.
J.Rob 2, use a short piece of track between sections when building so you will have a couple of expansion joints between sections and if you have to move it or expand it it will make that easier and more pain free. When doing your scenery if all that needs to be cut is the top layer it will make it easier still.
This is the method that is used for almost all traveling layouts that I have seen. However, I recently attended a GSMTS at Timonium, MD, where two large layouts (Sipping and Switching Societies of North Carolina and Ohio) did not use this method. The bench sections were accurately aligned by pipe "dowels" in their ends. Track rails were simply butted (small gap-no joiners). Electrical connections were via trailer plugs under the bench section joints. Track rails were held in place either by soldering rails to nails or by flat plates against each side of each rail. Nails were painted; plates were covered by ballast or scenery as appropriate.
The nail method looked better because it was less noticeable than the humps caused by the flat plates. Trains ran just fine!
Dante
Ditto on the gas cans (and the lawnmower or other gasoline powered equipment too). I don't want to be too paranoid here but you are literally playing with fire, and explosions, and possibly no insurance coverage if the fire investigators find you to have been in violation of the codes! You say that the gas cans have been in the room for two years. That means that your family has been at risk of disaster for two years. Please don't kid yourself because nothing has happened so far. Enough said!!
On a more positive note your layout progress looks great! You have obviously done a lot of research and planning. I look forward to your progress reports. Well done so far!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I'll echo what everyone else has said about those gas cans. They need to be outside and away from the water heater/furnace.You have been tempting fate the past 2 years. I'm also surprised the fumes haven't bothered anyone...
And remember a half or nearly empty gas container is much worse than a full one. The vapors are the most dangerous. Gasoline vapors are heavier than air and will pool near the floor, which is closer to that pilot light. Please move them outside. We don't want to hear about you on the 5 o'clock news after you've launched yourself into orbit and the house has burned down.
I'm also looking at your layout and really don't see how you're going to get in/out of the center pit. You may think you'll be able to duck in and out but I'm going to tell you that'll last perhaps a half dozen times before it gets old and you bang your head repeatedly. You will NOT like it......guaranteed.
Another nit, but it looks like you're blocking off a doorway along that framed wall. Is that passageway needed? You spent some money having the builder put it in. it seems a shame to not need it......
So.... you guys are telling me I should move the gas cans? I can't tell. There are no vapors however because they are the new generation cans. There is not even a hint there is gas anywhere around except by visually seeing the containers. I'm finding a new place to store them....
Moving back on topic: The duckunder is no problem at all. I debated long and hard over a liftout section and determined that it wasnt necessary. The way the layout is designed there isn't a need to hop in and out of the center when in operation.
If you look closer at the picture, the passage way is already chicken wired off. The other room the dog's playpen area when we leave the house.
hi,
i think a duck-under is an issue during the build, but also later when operating your layout. Both the yard and the industry in the NW corner hard are pretty hard to reach from the outside. What do you loose?
Since your dream is built in another room, it is hard not to use the space along the West wall.
Seal everything, all sides, even what will be covered with scenery. A stain is usually just that a stain not a sealer although some companies combine a stain and sealer into one product. I would suggest that you make a trip to home depot, or similar store and find a wood sealer that can be used on inside surfaces and seal everything, even the parts that will not be visible or covered with scenery. Furniture makers do that to limit expansion and contraction of their products. After the wood has been sealed the exposed surfaces can be finished in a manner that suits your taste as the sealer does not have to be the final treatment.
Your layout bench work looks even better on the other side of the room and it looks like you might have a chance to expand it a bit sooner than you thought. After all model railroaders and their space requirements are like farmers. They don't want all of the land just all of the land that adjoins their's.
Bad, bad! No expansion yet! haha.. that west wall has to remain open for storage stuff, anyways. There might be some expansion off the northeast side in the future.
I installed bracing on a a number of the legs tonight.. that thing is SOLID with those braces attached:
Hopefully will have the last of the braces installed over the next few days, then to get everything levelled up tightly, seal it, and get the electrician out so things can progress!
Also, I did some testing today with some flex track and my turnouts verifying the yard "spread." Works just as planned!