Ok!!!
I got some great information out of this. I am going to have to look it over, think about what I would like & do some research. Sounds like I'm going to use the enclosed room layout also.
mj
Paulus Jas hi mjm and doughless Long locomotives and cars look better on sharp curves and turnouts. will be an error.
hi mjm and doughless
will be an error.
doh!
Yes Paul, it was an error. I edited the post above to change the word 'sharp' to 'broad'.
- Douglas
MJ, one thing you might try is your local Library, I found quite a few books there. I like you am looking for inspiration as well.
I asked this before and did not get a answer.
What sizes is a tight turn in N Scale and what is concerted a wide turn? In HO scale, 18 inch is tight, and 32 is big, well to me. Give me a idea on turns and clearances for tunnels and I will play with some plans for you. I think we have the same taste as far as running styles.
Ken
I hate Rust
mjm - lucky you! You were able to enlist the help of some of the most knowledgeable (and also helpful and patient) folks in here when it comes to track planning. Listen carefully to what they say - they can give you the expert advice you are looking for.
Building a model railroad is done in 4 phases:
From what I have gathered in this thread you have not yet concluded your "dream" phase to a degree, where you can start to make a plan. The dream phase determines your druthers or "must haves", which, adapted to your givens, set the foundations for your planning phase. From what you have conveyed to us, a number of different designs would be possible to fulfill what we think is your dream. You don´t actually need a room-filling layout for that.
I am sorry if this may sound repetitive to you, but as you are about to spend not a small amount of $$$ on your layout, you should be quite clear of what you want to get out of it.
Btw, have you had a chance to take a look at this year´s MR project layout in N scale? It has a double track main line, a yard, some industries and a spectacular scenery. It is designed with railfanning in mind. MR ran a serious on how to build this layout from December 2009 till April 2010. It is worth looking at!
Mjm you've bought some pretty long engines, you should think about a 18" radius and using #7 and #10 switches (atlas). This may be already "Chinese" to you; if so, ask to explain.
It's not only about looking better, to sharp switches and to small radii will cause many derailments. and you end up having no fun at all.
Having a rather good book with trackplans like, 102 Realistic Track Plans by our host, might be a good idea. The plans are realistic cause they are built, though not all sustain realistic operation. I think Pelle Soeborg's UP Daneville layout (#93) is a great example of a layout constructed for rail-fanning; it could be double tracked of course. It almost has it all: a mainline "loop" with staging so you can let your trains roll; a station with a small town, and some industries. Switching can be done independent from the main; only a small yard is missing.
It's hard to talk without references, books can be great.
Paul
Hi MJ ---
I think the point Paul was trying to make about double mainlines while referring to John Armstrong's "Track planning for realistic operations" is that a double mainline on a layout has two big challenges - how to generate a large enough amount of traffic, and how to make something to do for the layout owner when trains are running.
Staging gets pretty important if what you really want to model is having a parade of east/northbound trains on one track meet a parade of west/southbound trains on the other track of a double track main.
Any layout where you want to run a parade or sequence of trains past a point, or into a scene (e.g. a station or terminal), or through a scene needs to dedicate quite a bit of area to staging - i.e. tracks to hold the trains that has not yet paraded across the stage, and the trains which has finished their moment in the limelight.
Staging may also be important if you want to model the interaction between several trains, or how cars flow through the system - with blocks of cars arriving on one train from "somewhere else" (beyond the small part of the world you are representing on your layout), maybe get set out in a yard track or on a siding, and then gets picked up by another train and taken to the car recipient to be loaded or unloaded.
And then later (after the car has been loaded or unloaded, maybe the next operating session) that car will be picked up by a third train, maybe be taken to a yard or siding and left there for yet another train. This fourth train will then pick up that car (and other cars heading in the same direction) and take off for "somewhere else" beyond the small part of the world you are modeling.
But in the case of just modeling "somewhere else" or "down the line" or "towards the next town", you don't necessarily need room for a whole parade of trains in staging - could be that there is only one train arriving and one train departing your area during the time span you are modeling - so one single ended track would work just fine as staging - starting the session by holding the inbound train from elsewhere and ending the session holding the outbound train for elsewhere.
Or you could even start your operating session with a train from elsewhere "having just arrived" and end it with the train for elsewhere "about to depart", on a track in your yard or on the mainline somewhere.
Getting back to the double track main. If what fascinates you about a double track main really is the way the two parallel tracks looks in the landscape, and you are perfectly happy with pretty sparse traffic (just one train moving at any time, or having the same two trains meet again and again, one running eastwards on one track/loop and the other running westwards on the other track/loop), then that gives you a number of other design options.
You could even have a single track loop that in some parts of the loop visually looks like a double track main - by e.g. having a dog bone or dumbbell configuration - narrow center with two parallel tracks, widening out to a turn back curve on each end, or just by having a longish double ended siding along part of a single track main, so one train can go "into the hole" (i.e. stop in the siding), and wait for another train to pass on the main.
Ironically, having a single track main with passing sidings tend to produce more interesting (at least to me) running than a full double track main. Having single track sections on a layout introduces the need to ensure that no two trains moving in opposite directions move into the same single track section, heading towards each other (unless you are into modeling crashes :-).
And that gives the owner something to do. Just watching trains run and run and run loop after loop after loop can get boring in the long run. At least to most people - as the dad of a kid on the autism spectrum, I realize that some people actually do enjoy watching things repeat - it can be relaxing.
Another aspect could be automating a layout - where a lot of the fun comes from the actual work of making the control and signal system work. Having trains move on autopilot, and slow down and automatically stop when they get to signals set against them. Again - probably most fun when you quite deliberately introduce choke points - single track sections or the need to cross over the other track or whatever.
Anyways - what would work for you depends on which aspect(s) of the double main it is that most fascinates you.
And that's why we keep pestering you to describe how you envision running your trains. It will give us an idea about whether you will need staging. If you will need separate loops, or whether the important thing is parallel tracks for at least part of the layout and stuff like that.
Hope I didn't totally drown you with this long missive. It is meant as help, not as criticism.
Smile, Stein
I've been following this thread for a while and thought I would jump in.
MJ, before you worry about how to design the best layout for the given space, you need to figure out how the layout will be fun for you. Maybe that's what you're asking the forum to help you figure out. However, its tough for anyone else to figure out for you what the goal of your layout is. If its to have fun, well isn't that the goal of everyone? But, fun for one person maybe someone else's boredom or frustration.
It sounds to me that you are very focused on the visual aspect of the layout and not so much how or why the trains are running. I.e. You seem to like stacked trains for their visual appeal, not because you want to reduce a specific section of UP's mainline to a corner of your basement. That's perfectly fine. You seem to want a yard because it looks cool when a long train passes slowly by tracks full of parked cars. Others may want a large yard on their layout because it helps them to model a specific section of a railroad, and the yard is NEEDED in order to ultimately facilitate the movement of car #123 in train ABC from Cheyenne to Omaha by 12:40pm, which also needs to take another car that arrived from Seattle on train XYZ. Again, that's okay. Many model railroaders, maybe even most of them, don't care about specific operations that much.
Its easier to develop a track plan for your goal of "railfanning" than another modeler's goal of "operations". How the tracks are arranged are less important for railfanning layouts than for other types, as long as your goal of visual satisfaction is met. However, no matter who you are as a modeler, there are certain facts that all tend to agree on:
There are many more do's and don't's, but I can't list them all here. That's what books are for. If you want to avoid any studying of any material at all, you have been presented with two good choices already.
Or:
If you're set on an open plan, one without a duckunder/liftout, then make sure the turn-back blobs have a broad enough radius to satisfy the first bullet point, but also avoiding the second and fourth.
Good luck and keep reading. Books, forums, wherever.
Sorry for my words before, I know I should read all this stuff......I will see what I can do.
Thank you.
hi mjm,
if you can read my writings you can also read a book. If you had John Armstrong's Track Planning For Realistic Operation i could give you the pages where he describes the problems and assets of a double tracked main. How to design a small yard is also covered. The word loop is a difficult one, can have different meanings.
You belittle yourself, you don't want to read, fine................. your not very knowledgeable great...... don't blame others.
mjmueller I love double mains, with mixed freight & stack trains. I would really like a well functioning layout with a double main looping & some mixed industrial, One town, and a yard that operates as a pass-through for my main.
I love double mains, with mixed freight & stack trains. I would really like a well functioning layout with a double main looping & some mixed industrial, One town, and a yard that operates as a pass-through for my main.
Trains going around and around without a goal, might be boring soon. Think about the title of John Armstrong's book.
A town is not important........the yard is. The yard is NOT for a pass trough. Here trains stop and set out or pick up blocks of cars. A local takes over and switches industries. Described brilliantly in John Armstrong's book in detail.
On a smaller layout your trains are back in the yard within seconds; no time at all for switching. A holding place for mainline trains is needed (staging).
I showed you a couple of possible designs; staging or holding, a small yard, some industries and the possibility to run around and around are in all of them.
It's up to you to find a good design, i can only help if your willing to read and to express your thoughts. Focus on the track plan first, its hard to make major changes later. A town can always build in later.
paul
Hey,
Here is some more information for you. Below you will find some of the stuff I have so far. Yes, I do like modern, that's what I'm going for. I do have a Trestle in the picture, but probably won't use it. Do I really need reverse loops, or can I just make them come back around.
Thanks for the info, and could you show me some examples of both idea's you were talking about.
mjmueller Ok, well here is the whole story, I have always been a huge rail fan & model railroad fan. I built a layout many years ago with my father. I am now since getting back into the hobby & need help. I am not very knowledgeable about the workings of a layout. This may sound really bad, but I don't want to go out and buy a bunch of books and read about what makes for a great working layout. I just want to have fun and enjoy the hobby. This is where you guys come in. I love double mains, with mixed freight & stacktrains. I would really like a well functioning layout with a double main looping & some mixed industrial, One town, and a yard that operates as a passthrough for my main. Please let me know what else I can tell you. The whole reason I'm on here is to get some "Expert" advice from you guys on what you think I might be looking at. Thank you all for your comments so far. But please try not to belittle me, I just want your help. mj
Ok, well here is the whole story,
I have always been a huge rail fan & model railroad fan. I built a layout many years ago with my father. I am now since getting back into the hobby & need help. I am not very knowledgeable about the workings of a layout. This may sound really bad, but I don't want to go out and buy a bunch of books and read about what makes for a great working layout. I just want to have fun and enjoy the hobby. This is where you guys come in.
I love double mains, with mixed freight & stacktrains. I would really like a well functioning layout with a double main looping & some mixed industrial, One town, and a yard that operates as a passthrough for my main. Please let me know what else I can tell you.
The whole reason I'm on here is to get some "Expert" advice from you guys on what you think I might be looking at. Thank you all for your comments so far. But please try not to belittle me, I just want your help.
now we're getting somewhere!!
Here's what I'm hearing (reading) from your druthers
with that in mind, it sounds like your best bet will be some form of a dogbone style layout, or a donut with liftout/swingout section. Each has its pros and cons. Dogbone needs big "blobs" for your reverse loops, whereas a donut needs the liftout/swingout section (which takes a little more work than "simple" benchwork)
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
+1 -- 36" is very deep for a shelf layout.
It *CAN* be done -- though you'll want access hatches and/or naught but scenery back there. Same goes for the turnaround blobs at each end.
Mjmueller -- I think the biggest stumbling block is your list of druthers. I see that you mentioned inclusion of a swamp and some other features... but what I'm not seeing is the purpose of your railroad empire.
What we're looking for is you saying explicitly what purpose the railroad serves (railroads are transportation companies afterall).
here are a few examples of what this might be:
if all books tell you don't design wider then 30" and most modern books and entries in MR often talk about width of 18" or less; a newbie chooses to do different. It's your choice of course.
Designing a workbench without telling you're probably going for a loop to loop design is not the best option. I would not take any decision now, just draw several plans and choose later.
A cassette or drop-in connection is not a bad option, two blobs are eating away valuable space.
We were talking about a vision..............i still don't have any clue about what you want to achieve.
Just a double or triple tracked layout, watching your trains doing laps? Or do you want to run your layout as real railroads are doing? If that's your aim, you'll have to describe the the parts you like the most; eg switching an industrial district, working a yard, dispatching trains during their journey. Though dreaming is nice the last option takes way more space. You have to decide where trains are coming from and heading too and allow space for these topics.
Three designs , that could be reworked for your space; staging, a small yard ans industrial switching
Ok, here is the new benchwork layout. I do not want to completely close off the room. The problem is my layout keeps getting smaller. I know the 36" might be a little deep, but I plan to have hills in the back to make up for the length. I will report soon with track plans. Any comments are more than welcome.
Paulus Jas hi, is it possible i have seen this plan before?
hi,
is it possible i have seen this plan before?
if you're referring to my plan, yeah -- you've probably seen it before.
Not to hijack the thread, but your concerns were raised (by stein mainly) elsewhere, and the druthers listed are naught but a "quick 'n dirty" runthrough of what the other guys are looking for (was at work, so I didn't have the list with me ).
back to the issue at hand -- helping mjmueller with his plan.
mjmueller -- must've missed the pic of the new plan... how're things looking now?
Well, I have revised the track plan again. The reason for the huge yard, is, I like the look of it, always have, but to be honest I probably can't have that now. In the garage it was fine, because the layout was huge, but now it keeps getting smaller and smaller.
i read trough the druthers, but can't match it with the design. It would need 2 staging yards, one at the top and one at the bottom, both with 4 tracks or more. If it would be wise to use so much space for staging is a different question. Designing a model-railroad is about being honest to your self. When you are talking about a freight train coming in to change engines and going further down the line later, you need a lot of length. Your freight has to be parked on line some where (staging)............ goes down the line ,into your yard, after changing engines its supposed to roll on before ending its run in staging again.
The only thing I see is a very short and small yard; dreaming is nice....but does not build a great model-railroad. The space it has is limiting the kind of railroading; IMAO a small terminal or a small switching layout is the best you can get.
This example might be called a vision, a reality check is missing. 50 years ago John Armstrong wrote Track Planning For Realistic Operation; think long and hard about the title. It was a landmark in the history of model-railroading; beside building a layout, running trains like real railroads did became the aim of many modellers. Just let them run their laps was no longer the goal.
Buying that book, just as 102 Realistic Track Plans both published by our host is worth the money. I also fancy How To Design A Small Switching Layout by Lance Mindheim, cause it gives you an idea about visions.
mjmueller This was the old layout I am tearing down right now. I was modeling the Mississippi River on this last layout. I love the idea, but don't think it will work for my new one.
This was the old layout I am tearing down right now. I was modeling the Mississippi River on this last layout. I love the idea, but don't think it will work for my new one.
It looks to me like the desire is just rolling trains.
steinjr Mmm - when you describe your vision for your layout, you are telling me what it should look like - you want detailed trees in autumn colors, you want a bridge, you want a swamp, you want hills with rock outcroppings. Your description of how your trains should run is limited to : "functional yard, some switching". How about concentrating on how you want to run trains on your layout? That determines the track plan to a far larger degree than what trees you want for your scenery. How many trains moving at a time? How long trains? How many during a session? Do you want your trains to loop on autopilot and just sit back and watch them run? Or do you want to be the engineer of one train, walking along with it as it moves down the line? You want a "functional" yard. Functional in what way? Will it a yard that will hold whole trains about to run (i.e. visible staging)? Is it a yard which will sort (classify cars) into blocks bound for different destinations? Will your layout actually have multiple destinations - ie have tracks that go off into hidden staging in different directions? Is the yard an industry yard, where a block of cars is dropped off by a passing train, to later be handled by a local switcher or plant switcher? Try to describe how you envision running your trains. What do you want to be able to do with your trains? Smile,Stein
Mmm - when you describe your vision for your layout, you are telling me what it should look like - you want detailed trees in autumn colors, you want a bridge, you want a swamp, you want hills with rock outcroppings.
Your description of how your trains should run is limited to : "functional yard, some switching".
How about concentrating on how you want to run trains on your layout? That determines the track plan to a far larger degree than what trees you want for your scenery.
How many trains moving at a time? How long trains? How many during a session?
Do you want your trains to loop on autopilot and just sit back and watch them run? Or do you want to be the engineer of one train, walking along with it as it moves down the line?
You want a "functional" yard. Functional in what way?
Will it a yard that will hold whole trains about to run (i.e. visible staging)?
Is it a yard which will sort (classify cars) into blocks bound for different destinations? Will your layout actually have multiple destinations - ie have tracks that go off into hidden staging in different directions?
Is the yard an industry yard, where a block of cars is dropped off by a passing train, to later be handled by a local switcher or plant switcher?
Try to describe how you envision running your trains. What do you want to be able to do with your trains?
Smile,Stein
+1
Maybe an example will help. Here's a diagram of my layout, and description of what's gonna be happening in a given "operating session":
This is designed with one maaaaaaybe two operators in mind. to make things easy, we'll call things the south leg, west leg, and north leg.
The layout is a protolanced branchline of the Pennsylvania Railroad in late spring/early summer (May/June/July) of 1941.
Operations will consist of:
Hope this helps get you thinking "on the right track"
Ok, great, thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it. Below you will find my (Vision).
mjmueller Here is a quick mock up of some Idea's. mj
Here is a quick mock up of some Idea's.
Mmmm - okay, you seem to prefer running to switching, and want to be able to run several trains at the same time.
Reach will be fairly bad at the base of the peninsula, as you have drawn it now.
If you want a peninsula coming down from the top wall, to increase run length, you might want to consider doing a narrow neck, and maybe a view block down the center of the peninsula.
Doesn't have to be as long a peninsula as in the quick sketch below - that gives long and narrow aisles. But think long and narrow if you want a long run.
You still have not written much to explain how you want to run your layout.
One person running trains? Or do you need room for 5-6 operators? Do you need room to take 15 relatives into the pit to show off your layout?
What's the purpose of your yard - is is just a place to store trains until they are supposed to run (i.e. open staging), or will you have someone in the yard using an engine to gather cars into trains bound for different destinations?
The yard you are sketching is double ended and pyramid shaped. Which means that the tracks are all different lengths. If you want the yard to be storage for trains which will run later, it is possible that a different type of yard will be better.
In general - the more you can tell us about how you want to run your layout - number of operators, numbers of trains, desired train lengths (types and numbers of cars), whether you want to just simulate trains running through the landscape, or blocks of cars being coming in from various places, being sorted into blocks for different trains and routed towards different destinations or you want to simulate trains picking up loaded coal cars from mines and leaving empties or whatever - the more you tell us about your vision, the more targeted advice can get.
mjmueller Could I get some information on Coal trains that run through autumn colored mountains. Thanks mj
Could I get some information on Coal trains that run through autumn colored mountains.
Thanks
Get this book from Kalmbach: http://www.kalmbachstore.com/12453.html
The Modelers Guide to Coal Railroading. It is very good. You can set the scenery to whichever season that you want.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I will draw up a plan and show you later.
mjmueller Ok, didn't know it was that serious. I guess I will come up with idea's on my own. Thanks for all the help. mj
Ok, didn't know it was that serious. I guess I will come up with idea's on my own. Thanks for all the help.
It IS serious. You can't just throw a space and a few ideas at the wall and see what sticks. Or in this case, you can't just throw out a dimesional space and a few iffy ideas and see what others come up without spelling out in detail what you want and are looking for.
You need to give us your list of "givens and druthers". You really only gave one given {your space allotment, and the lift-out bridge requirements. You gave a few sketchy druthers {I want it to be possibly this height with three possible levels} and maybe 2 or maybe 3 mainlines.
-You need to define your railroad. What year, What time of year, What railroad {or freelanced}, what industry you want, what country side and terrain you want.
-you need to define your trackage and layout desires...do you want a yard? What kind of yard spur or ladder? do you want a lot of switching? No switching? do you want you want a lot of country mainlines through hill and dale?DO you want a city flat scape? Do you want passenger stations or freight stations? Both? Do you want your mainlines all parallel? Do you want separtate mainlines? DO you want continous running capabilities?Or Do you want point-to point? do you want over/under trackage? do you want passing sidings? do you want an engine servicing facitlity? is it for steam or diesel or both? Do you want flat prairie or mountainous? Riverside/seaside offloading dock? do you want your levels connected by helix or separate operations? How much space can you devote to the helix? {tight curves and height add to the stress on locos pulling trains up it}? WHat kind of track are you gonna use? what size and brand of switches are you going to use? How is it powered? DC or DCC? What are you minimum and maximum curve radii? Do you want all flex track or sectional? Do you want tunnels?
So many questions need to be answered before someone can work up a track plan for you!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I do understand, and it sounds like i have some more thinking to do. I will update when I figure it out.