An acquaintance of mine, to whom I have sold my last remaining piece of US-prototype equipment, has asked me to design a layout for him.
Unfortunately, I seem to be stuck in an "analysis-paralysis" - rut and need some help to get out of it.
Here are some of his givens & druthers:
His "train room" looks like this:
Any idea is welcomed!
This is quick and crude because I am on my way to the golf course, but does this drawing make any sense for your friend?
Along the walls only with a manual turntable at each end to turn engines.
Do you need a bridge or duckunder at the upper right?
Drawing represents a "double mainline" , not a single set of rails.
Black dots are end posts on spurs.
Dark rectangles are industries on the sidings.
The crossings add interest from the outer track across the inner track to reach the sidings.
Hey, I say it was quick and crude.
Rich
Alton Junction
Sir Madog,
I believe you are fine. You need a little more information from your friend to minimize some of the analysis. You need a specific rail line or a specific part of the country to determine the terrain and how the rail line made it's money. Some of this will be obvious and will jog your memory on things you already know. Mountains can mean mining or logging. Prairies usually mean agriculture. From here you can determine a railroad that operated in one of those locations. A city will have manufacturing facilities that will need switched. OR if your acquaintance has a few engines from the same road that may be a place to start.
I believe another given or two and you will be fine.
Bob
Modeling in N scale: Rock Island freight and passenger, with a touch of the following; Wabash Cannon Ball, CB&Q passenger, and ATSF freight and passenger. I played in Peoria (Heights).
This is going to sound like a cop-out, but I have been looking at a shelf layout plan in 101 Track plans for quite a while. It is plan number 8 on page 6. It is 16 foot long and 1 foot wide. It looks like there is a lot of action on it, and it could be expanded in depth and length, and wrapped around the room that your fried has.
It has a yard at one end and a pier at the other, which could be switched out for a car float operation as staging or an interchange. There are three levels of scenery and tracks with industries of course.
I will probably never build it myself because I have an around the walls layout in a single car garage. But I think it is a neat looking track plan. There is also an artists rendition of what the scenery could look like.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Thanks, folks, for your input.
I did some fiddling around with some ideas this morning and came up with this so far:
In still have no idea how to proceed where the big question mark is. I´d like to avoid any S-curve, but need to keep the shelf as narrow as possible. Should I just go straight down and add, say, a 3-track fiddle yard? Minimum radius should not be less than 18", although only locos with a short wheelbase will be run.
Oh joy, oh rapture!
hi my friend,
just a few questions
1) does your friend like a switching layout, like Lance Mindheim"s East rail?
2) is the use of the space limited to shelves along the walls?
3) is having 2 operators an important wish?
4) your own Alaska design is a very good example, could probably be adapted to a different space.
Issues like staging / interchange and having a small yard should be clear before starting to draw.
Just like a notion of the location...NYC, Alameda, Miami, Salt Lake or some where in the Rockies.
i think an adaptation of Lance's or your Alaska plan are worth a try.
How is your health
(mail me schorshan at casema dot nl)
Paul
Sir Madog Thanks, folks, for your input. I did some fiddling around with some ideas this morning and came up with this so far: In still have no idea how to proceed where the big question mark is. I´d like to avoid any S-curve, but need to keep the shelf as narrow as possible. Should I just go straight down and add, say, a 3-track fiddle yard? Minimum radius should not be less than 18", although only locos with a short wheelbase will be run. Oh joy, oh rapture!
Ulrich,
By all means, considere the 3-track fiddle yard. Anything to keep your friend's interest level high. On a small layout, he will need a variety of things to do to keep from growing bored.
The question mark in your diagram reinforces my concern for what to do in that particular area. Since I remain fixated with the idea of turntables at each end of the layout, why not place a turntable in the corner to the right of the question mark and then run the 3-track fiddle yard down the remainder of the right side of the room. That way, your friend can turn engines, avoid an S-curve, and have the fiddle yard for added interest and storage. Just a thought.
Sir Madog In still have no idea how to proceed where the big question mark is. I´d like to avoid any S-curve, but need to keep the shelf as narrow as possible. Should I just go straight down and add, say, a 3-track fiddle yard? Minimum radius should not be less than 18", although only locos with a short wheelbase will be run.
Mmm - how about something like this - sharpest curve (on the left of the layout) is 24" radius:
Easy enough to put a couple of railserved industries on the right and top - how many and how dense depends on what type of location you want to model.
Might be that you want just scenery along the top as a transition between the scene on the left and the scene on the right right.
Or something - you are kinda skimpy on details about the desired type of place and type of traffic :-)
Grin, Stein, who has spent the morning on rewiring part of my warehouse district
Ulrich, I am very interested in this thread, as my layout space is pretty close to the area your friend has, minus the "bump out" on the right side. I have been stocking up on C83 Atlas track for a few months now. I don't have a specific prototype RR I want to model. I may just do smething fictional, along a branchline type operation. I am leaning towards modeling a meat packing plant in the upper left corner (Champion Packing Plant). There is a plan for modeling it in a corner space, in a recent MR issue. Not to suggest that this would appeal to your friends modeling interests, but, I plan to use that track arrangement to get started, and then expand from there. I would also like to incorporate a small yard on the bottom left. I like the yard plan the Paul Dolkos had on his B&M layout. That also had an industrial spur behind it that had some background flats. On the short leg of the "L", I envision a single line crossing either in front of some backgound buildings, like the backside of the large apartment building, or in behind a city scene (merchants row) for example. On the right side, I haven't come up with anything solid yet, but was thinking a scrap yard, engine service terminal, and a turntable to turn engines.
I would like to see what your Alaska track plan that some one else mentioned looks like.
Good luck, and I will be keeping an eye on this thread to hear from the experts here. I have already gathered countless ideas and tips from all of you here.
Wow, I am overwhelmed! all that valuable input!
Stein - I very much like your idea, because it could mean a "slow start" for him, building a diorama/module (the right part) and expand it later on - will talk to him about that. Is it Peco code 75 track?
Paul - I am (up to now ) pretty in choosing region and area. My friend wants to have an "American-style" layout and has not yet made up his mind, what that is in his eyes. Given the space limitations, any "big" railroading will have to be excluded, leaving branchline or shortline operation as viable options. I am sure he wants to run a small steam loco, but also likes Diesels. I will talk to him about this bit (and maybe help him a little to find the "right" direction.
One issue will be certainly the cost of building the layout. My friend has also only little cash available to be spend on a layout. This means as few turnouts as possible, without giving up an interesting operation. Turnouts and turntables will eventually manually controlled, buildings and structured scratch-built. Modeling on a shoestring budget - certainly a challenge, if you have to acquire all materials.
Colesdad - the Alaska RR plan is a layout idea I developed last year, before we lost our house and moved to the little flat we are now living in. It is a shelf-switcher, loosely based on the ARR. Here is the plan:
Hmm.. I think Stein is on to something here as an idea for the space. The left hand side of the drawing could feature an interchange with a mainline crossing near the bottom left hand side and turnouts connecting the branch and the main so cars can be interchanged - including a storage track. The main line could continue more or less parallel to the wall leading to a small staging yard along the top - there could be a single siding served from the main too - making for a great excuse for two railroads being modeled. Add a passing siding and few spurs in the general area as the interchange to complete the branchline railroad. The area at the top could be some nice bucolic scenery to make a visual transition between the left and right.
From an operations standpoint having the center of the action separated this way would help give the impression that there is miles between town A and town B - all in a very compact space and easy to build.
Charles
Sir Madog Stein - I very much like your idea, because it could mean a "slow start" for him, building a diorama/module (the right part) and expand it later on - will talk to him about that. Is it Peco code 75 track?
Yup.
Smile, Stein
After a lengthy conversation with my friend, I was able to pin down some more druthers about his planned layout.
He definitively wants to have a certain "Western" flavor to his layout (as much as people in the US think of "Lederhosen and Beer" when Germany is mentioned, Germans think of gunslingers, desperadoes and Western movies, when the think of the US ).
This pretty much determines the setting and the era of the layout.
This is what I have come up with this morning:
Still needs a lot of tweaking, so comments are highly welcomed!
Ulrich:
Hope I can help with some thoughts:
If the cassette is to represent interchange/staging, I would have more switches in the left side town in order to require most of the cars to travel the length of the layout to reach the busier town. Maybe just add one larger industry there at the expense of some of the general town structures.
Also, the track that the cassette feeds into could merge with the runaround a lot earlier than it does. As it stands, it looks like you'll have to run the train almost around the curve at the top in order to clear the switch to access the runaround, what you'll need to do to swich the elevator if the locomotive is pulling the train out of staging. (Or you could just shift the cassette one or two tracks to the right, which will give you a longer switch lead too if the cassette is included.)
There's a chance the building at the top section may clutter the scene. Someone suggested keeping that section scenery-only in order to separate the towns better. I agree. With a building there, the layout might start to look like one big town and you may lose the sense of distance, if that's what you're going for. To keep operations interesting, maybe you could leave the switch and model an industry that goes beyond the layout. There's plenty of room there for a hillside to hide the end of the spur.
I think a geographic barrier, like valley and dry river bed crossing, in the left corner would separate the towns a bit better than a road overpass. Or, maybe you could make the entire top side of the layout a large deep valley with a high trestle, which would give your friend (or even you) a scratchbuilding project.
Just some ideas.
- Douglas
Doughless,
VERY good ideas! I am not happy with the road overpass myself, I will change it to a dry creek with a wooden trestle over it. I also agree with removing the building on the top right of the layout. I need to make that section a little narrower, as this parts needs to be removable. There are windows behind this part, which may require an occasional cleaning
The cassette staging is meant to be put on any of those three tracks at the lower right end, so that should not be a big issue.
Thanks for your comments!
Thanks Ulrich, glad I can help
More specifically for the left side: I would put a large industry in the far SW corner of the benchwork. Shift the cattle pens and spur towards the edge and maybe angle the siding so the turntable is in the SE corner. Having the industry that generates the most traffic in the SW corner would maximize the run for those cars.
Since your friend thinks of the SW as the wild, wild, west; how about a distillery as that industry? :-)
... there ain´t nothin´ sweeter than a good taste of moonshine
I am still working on the plan to incorporate some changes, but I have already added a place called "Saguaro Liquors" .
Btw, the plan is drawn in WinRail/RTS, and I have "abused" the draw function to add the buildings and structures, as well as to enhance the layout a little. The only "drawback" is, that it takes some time to draw the individual elements.
hi ulrich
i've drawn a plan with some ideas
All are indicated in the drawing.
I like both your design and Stein's very much.
Paul,
as usual, your ideas are really smashing! I like the idea of the added board very much, but I don´t think he could go for it. The future train room also sees other uses and that board would block any access.
I have put your plan into my idea box!
I haven't done any sketching, but perhapsOlson's Jerome & Southwestern could be unfolded to fit the space. The "port" could be made the fit in the little 24x75 alcove on the lower right, and then perhaps both the main and mining branch could be unfolded to fit along the other two walls.
jmbjmb - do you know where I could find the track plan of it? I am always looking for well designed layouts as a source of inspiration.
I did some more tweaking on the track plan - it is now coming close to what I had envisioned it to be.
Open questions are still:
More tweaking to come!
Sir Madog jmbjmb - do you know where I could find the track plan of it? I am always looking for well designed layouts as a source of inspiration. I did some more tweaking on the track plan - it is now coming close to what I had envisioned it to be. Open questions are still: Engine house Cassette staging - I am not really with the lead to it and the length of it More tweaking to come!
From your drawing, it looks like you could quite nicely fit a 2-stall engine house under the livestock pens facing the turntable.
Just to try something: Could you adapt Paulus' idea for using the middle of the room for the cassette? Would your friend go for using that space only when running the layout?
If so, have the cassette come off the left hand side, where the turn table is now, so it sticks into the middle of the room. You'll have to do a mirror reverse flip of the plan and interchange, but that would give you a longer cassette. The alcove where the feed store is now would be ideal for the turntable and possible engine house.
Kind of a major redesign using your software, but since were playing around anyway.......
I need to talk this plan over with my friend, before I start to make major changes. I can follow your reasoning, but can he?
Just because yesterday was Columbus Day - I am not setting out to find a western route to India, only to end up in the Americas , so I want to have some clear directions from him now. After all, I have spend some 20+ hrs on the design, for which I am not getting paid
Sorry, been at work all day and just got to this. The original track plan was published in MR something like 1982 and then republished by Kalmbach in a book, Building a Model Railroad with Personality. The original track plan was for a 4x8 with 2x6 port, but could be unfolded into a point to point shelf layout easily. For a 4x8 he didn't overload it with track and let the western scenary do the talking.
Yesterdays discussion with my friend resulted in a general acceptance of the plan as it now stands. Of cause, a little more tweaking had to be done, but only small changes needed to be done. The changes are:
There are some points which may get my attention - I am not really happy with the switchback operation to serve the Wheaton´s Feed spur. But that issue may be solved once construction commences.
I´d better call this a pre-final plan now
Thanks for all your help!
Glad to see that the engine house location got worked into the final plan.
I take pleasure in playing at least some small part in the overall design.
Kudos to all who came up with ideas and suggestions.
Your initial floor plan helped immensely to visualize the work space.
hi Ulrich
2 remarks:
I would not be afraid for the switchback, the cassette is making the tail long enough.
You might have seconds thoughts about the turntable. Operationally it does not add much, i would prefer a small yard. With a turntable that small, a little extension in the room would create sufficient space for both.
As it is, its a lovely design, quite build-able; and fun to operate.
Are you sure your friend does not want a continuous run option?
the guy already bought it kit for the turntable, so it is a must-have . At least it is a sign that he is serious about building it (and maybe I can partake a little).
At this stage, I can exclude the run around option for him, but as there is still some space to the "south" left in the designated train room, it would not be much of an affair to extend the layout to become a "roundy-rounder".
Sir Madog There are some points which may get my attention - I am not really happy with the switchback operation to serve the Wheaton´s Feed spur.
There are some points which may get my attention - I am not really happy with the switchback operation to serve the Wheaton´s Feed spur.
Your objection to the switchback operation to serve the Wheaton´s Feed spur interests me.
Looking at your drawing, it appears that there is enough room on the switching lead to accomodate the engine and trailing cars without requiring more than one maneuver to place the cars on the industrial spur.
The switchback certainly appears to another element of interest to the overall operation.
Is your objection attributable to operational complexities or do you have other concerns?