Hamltnblue Back to the original post. If you can't see the actual lights when operating, simply use dummy signals with no wired lights. What good are they if you can't see them anyhow? Try to position any lighted one you do install correctly and in a way that can be observed/showed off.
Back to the original post. If you can't see the actual lights when operating, simply use dummy signals with no wired lights. What good are they if you can't see them anyhow? Try to position any lighted one you do install correctly and in a way that can be observed/showed off.
Your point is well taken and is something to keep in mind as I install signals on my new layout.
Alton Junction
gandydancer19 I see that you are getting a lot of answers and advice. Signaling can be complicated or simple on a model RR. However, you need to know the basics so you can decide how simple or complicated you want to make yours. I will try and keep things simple for you. Different RR's use different signals. Remember there are always exceptions, but Western roads used searchlights and Eastern roads used three separate lights per head. In the steam and early diesel years, signals were on the right side only. So there were two signals on each side of the track for a single line that was traveled in both directions. Two signal heads on one mast were used: 1- when coming to a place where the track branched, except for dead end sidings. 2- Also when entering a yard where there were no more signals, (a signal was located there to tell you that. (restricted speed)). 3- At a draw bridge there would be a signal with two red indications. 4- Where two or more tracks crossed each other. The rest of the signals could be a single head on one mast. There are no RR signals that just showed green for straight and red for diverging routes at turnouts. There were illuminated switch stands that showed this, but not signals. Try this link:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzescsbb/HO_MRR/Signals/Signals_getting_started1.html This is going to be more information that you want, but use just the parts you want.When you decide what RR's signal system you want to use, look up their indications (called Aspects) on the Internet. For my layout, set in the East, I decided to use C&O type signals. C&O had some signals with three heads, but I decided not to use more than two heads on a single mast. Because it is MY railroad, I can do that. I hope this helps cut through the information you have received.
I see that you are getting a lot of answers and advice.
Signaling can be complicated or simple on a model RR. However, you need to know the basics so you can decide how simple or complicated you want to make yours. I will try and keep things simple for you.
Different RR's use different signals. Remember there are always exceptions, but Western roads used searchlights and Eastern roads used three separate lights per head.
In the steam and early diesel years, signals were on the right side only. So there were two signals on each side of the track for a single line that was traveled in both directions.
Two signal heads on one mast were used: 1- when coming to a place where the track branched, except for dead end sidings. 2- Also when entering a yard where there were no more signals, (a signal was located there to tell you that. (restricted speed)). 3- At a draw bridge there would be a signal with two red indications. 4- Where two or more tracks crossed each other. The rest of the signals could be a single head on one mast.
There are no RR signals that just showed green for straight and red for diverging routes at turnouts. There were illuminated switch stands that showed this, but not signals.
Try this link:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzescsbb/HO_MRR/Signals/Signals_getting_started1.html
This is going to be more information that you want, but use just the parts you want.When you decide what RR's signal system you want to use, look up their indications (called Aspects) on the Internet.
For my layout, set in the East, I decided to use C&O type signals. C&O had some signals with three heads, but I decided not to use more than two heads on a single mast. Because it is MY railroad, I can do that.
I hope this helps cut through the information you have received.
Great information, thanks. I also appreciate the link. Super information there.
Rich
dehusman Technically the signal has nothing to do with the crossing. If you will notice all the signals governing movement of trains from left to right are sublettered "R" and all the signals governing movement from right to left are sub lettered "L". The switches are numbered, slip or double slip switches have more than one number (for each set of points). The signal you are referring to is 32L. So it governs movement of a train entering the terminal and sets the speed of the train going through those multiple slip switches. It is a triple head signal so it can display a very restrictive signal such as "slow speed" R over R over G or "medium" speed R over Y over R.
Technically the signal has nothing to do with the crossing. If you will notice all the signals governing movement of trains from left to right are sublettered "R" and all the signals governing movement from right to left are sub lettered "L". The switches are numbered, slip or double slip switches have more than one number (for each set of points).
The signal you are referring to is 32L. So it governs movement of a train entering the terminal and sets the speed of the train going through those multiple slip switches. It is a triple head signal so it can display a very restrictive signal such as "slow speed" R over R over G or "medium" speed R over Y over R.
Dave,
A continuing thank you to you for the information you have provided, especially the info on the actual signals shown in the diagram. That will be invaluable to me.
I don't want to slight nyone else who has also contributed here to my knowledge about these signal systems. Thanks again to all who have contributed here.
Springfield PA
cx500 Flashing lights may or may not have existed, but I am certain there were masts with two semaphores (heads). They could still be found in Marias Pass on the BN in 1973 at Nimrod (later Java East) where the double track became single for a bridge. They were obsolete technology even then, and would likely have dated back at least to the 1940s.
Flashing lights may or may not have existed, but I am certain there were masts with two semaphores (heads). They could still be found in Marias Pass on the BN in 1973 at Nimrod (later Java East) where the double track became single for a bridge. They were obsolete technology even then, and would likely have dated back at least to the 1940s.
Actually, three head semaphore signals were common 75+ years ago. My point was that the use of two heads solely to indicate speed, and not track routing thru an interchange, seems to be fairly new (like in the last 20 years or so). In forums like this, working railroaders have mentioned how two- or three-head signals indicate speed, I have books on signals and railroading going back to the thirties and had never heard of that until reading about it on these forums.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Surviving semaphores in recent times have probably been intermediates which only need a single head. If anything fails in the old machinery, the train can still proceed with minimal fuss.
"That's always a problem with any area of model railroading when you're recreating the past, whether with buildings or roadsigns or signals or what have you...you always have to be careful not to assume that they way things are now are the way they would have been in the past."
John
In the time in the OP's original question (1940's-50's) I don't believe the use of flashing singnals had started yet (many locations still had semaphores afterall). Also the use of multi-head signals to give speed indications wasn't around then either AFAIK.
That's always a problem with any area of model railroading when you're recreating the past, whether with buildings or roadsigns or signals or what have you...you always have to be careful not to assume that they way things are now are the way they would have been in the past.
looks like a new installation that isn't in service yet. once they're activated, they'll be rotated facing opposite each other
signals are placed on the right hand side of the track whenever possible, and partly due to the fact that most railroads have locomotives that have the engineer operating on the right hand side fo the locomotive. also in many places where operating in multitrack territory often the right hand track is assigned as the "normal" running direction, with the other track being "right" if you were coming from that direction. nowadays a lot of this type running has been done away with, and it's typical to be running from the left hand track.
if the signals are ground based, then in double track territory you might have one on the left and one on the right, but if they're mounted on an overhead signal bridge, then generally the signal is placed directly above the track it governs, toward the right hand side.
if you were to encounter a situation where you have more than one track but not all are signalled, then the signal would generally be on the right hand side with what they call "doll masts" to indicate how many tracks you "skip" in order to determine the track signalled by the mounted signal.
I don't know any about the location you're talking about, but under Canadian rules, 2 head signals at interlockings allow for Slow speed indications, while 3 head signals allow for Medium and possibly Limited speed indications, since under these rules signal indications include speed. Since the rules are different between railways, your mileage may vary.
A nice way I've heard it simplified is "All Red = STOP, anything else = GO but the more yellow lights or the farther down the pole it is the more restrictive the speed indication". Obviously a gross oversimplification for someone who wants to build signals, but sufficient for a fairly green _model_ train crew who doesn't know the 30 possible signal rules.
Like Dave H. says, the individual heads on any signal do not have any meaning on their own. The entire combination gives a specific instruction.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
dehusman richhotrainOn my planned layout, Alton Junction to Dearborn Station in Chicago, when the Santa Fe (using ICRR tracks) crosses the C&WI tracks and the PRR tracks, there is a 3 head searchlight signal at the interlock, per your indication above. What would be the function of each one of the three heads? All three lights have to be read as a whole. The 1975 ATSF rules do not show any 3 head signals, so they must be operating on C&WI rules.
richhotrainOn my planned layout, Alton Junction to Dearborn Station in Chicago, when the Santa Fe (using ICRR tracks) crosses the C&WI tracks and the PRR tracks, there is a 3 head searchlight signal at the interlock, per your indication above. What would be the function of each one of the three heads?
All three lights have to be read as a whole. The 1975 ATSF rules do not show any 3 head signals, so they must be operating on C&WI rules.
They may be operating on ICRR rules because ATSF trains use the ICRR tracks to cross C&WI at Alton Junction.
I don't know how well this can be seen, but here is the interlock schematic at Alton Junction:
At the lower right, the SF tracks can be seen joining the IC tracks, then crossing the C&WI four track main line and the PRR tracks, then continuing through to the C&WI tracks beyond the interlock. The 3 head searchlight signal can be seen above and left of the interlock
The classic model railroader answer is that the top light applies to the main, the next light to the next track or switch over and the bottom signal to the next track or switch after that. That is wrong from a prototype perspective.
Basically all lights other than the top one red indicates that the train will remain on the same route.
The top light red and various combinations of yellow, green and lunar on the bottom two lights indicate the train will take a diverging route, the more yellows and lunar, the lower the lights are the slower the speed through the diverging route, the fewer the yellows and flashing yellows, the higher the speed. In order to know what specific signals are indicated, you'd have to know what the tracks looked like beyond the interlocking ans what the speed was on each of the routes.
dehusman richhotrain On the prototype, where and when were single searchlight signals used versus double searchlight signals? In my circumstances, if I am merely using searchlight signals to indicate the position of the turnout, would I always use single searchlights? Or, how offensive would it be if I used double searchlights for crossovers and single searchlights for simple turnouts? Searchlight signals are just a type or style of signal, they mean the same thing as any other type or style of signal in the same configuration. The number of heads depends on the indication being communicated. Normally multiple head signals are used where a train leaves a main track and goes to another main track or siding. At a siding switch in CTC there would be 3 signals. On the main track on either side of the switch and one in the siding. All the signals would face away from the switch. The signal on the main track closest to the points of the switch would have 2 heads and all the rest would have 1. At a crossover in CTC there would be 4 signals, two on each track, one on either side of the crossover, all facing away from the crossover. The signals closest to the points of the switch would have 2 heads and the signals on the frog ends of the crossover would have one head. At interlockings it was common to have signals with 2 or 3 heads. Switches to industrial spurs and yard tracks normally do not have signals.
richhotrain On the prototype, where and when were single searchlight signals used versus double searchlight signals? In my circumstances, if I am merely using searchlight signals to indicate the position of the turnout, would I always use single searchlights? Or, how offensive would it be if I used double searchlights for crossovers and single searchlights for simple turnouts?
On the prototype, where and when were single searchlight signals used versus double searchlight signals?
In my circumstances, if I am merely using searchlight signals to indicate the position of the turnout, would I always use single searchlights? Or, how offensive would it be if I used double searchlights for crossovers and single searchlights for simple turnouts?
Searchlight signals are just a type or style of signal, they mean the same thing as any other type or style of signal in the same configuration.
The number of heads depends on the indication being communicated. Normally multiple head signals are used where a train leaves a main track and goes to another main track or siding. At a siding switch in CTC there would be 3 signals. On the main track on either side of the switch and one in the siding. All the signals would face away from the switch. The signal on the main track closest to the points of the switch would have 2 heads and all the rest would have 1.
At a crossover in CTC there would be 4 signals, two on each track, one on either side of the crossover, all facing away from the crossover. The signals closest to the points of the switch would have 2 heads and the signals on the frog ends of the crossover would have one head.
At interlockings it was common to have signals with 2 or 3 heads.
Switches to industrial spurs and yard tracks normally do not have signals.
On my planned layout, Alton Junction to Dearborn Station in Chicago, when the Santa Fe (using ICRR tracks) crosses the C&WI tracks and the PRR tracks, there is a 3 head searchlight signal at the interlock, per your indication above. What would be the function of each one of the three heads?
Thanks.
firstbelt richhotrain ... Incidentally, since my new layout will be "based upon the prototype", I need to select a time period to model, and it will be some time between the late 1940's and the early 1950's, so let's say 1948-1954. ... Rich You could try to pick up a book of operating rules at a train show, or find a website for a railroad's historical group. That would give you a few ideas and historically accurate info. The operating rules show signal aspects that an engine crew would encounter, and what they mean. There are usually special applications spelled out, too. Seems like you settled on searchlight signals; there are also semaphore and color position light signals. Semaphore signals could have a lighted indication; I used to enjoy seeing them at night on the old Erie main across western New York. That would give you something visible on the layout from either direction. B&O and PRR had different types of color position light signals. A railroad might have signals to indicate just block occupancy; most of the discussion so far has been about interlocking signals. Interlocking signals need to be located outside the interlocking (in advance of switches), to allow an opposing move to cross in front of a train stopped for a stop signal. When I eventually get a layout built, I hope to have control panel indications in addition to wayside signals. A control panel would give you a way to "see" the signal operation.
richhotrain ... Incidentally, since my new layout will be "based upon the prototype", I need to select a time period to model, and it will be some time between the late 1940's and the early 1950's, so let's say 1948-1954. ... Rich
...
Incidentally, since my new layout will be "based upon the prototype", I need to select a time period to model, and it will be some time between the late 1940's and the early 1950's, so let's say 1948-1954. ...
You could try to pick up a book of operating rules at a train show, or find a website for a railroad's historical group. That would give you a few ideas and historically accurate info. The operating rules show signal aspects that an engine crew would encounter, and what they mean. There are usually special applications spelled out, too.
Seems like you settled on searchlight signals; there are also semaphore and color position light signals. Semaphore signals could have a lighted indication; I used to enjoy seeing them at night on the old Erie main across western New York. That would give you something visible on the layout from either direction. B&O and PRR had different types of color position light signals.
A railroad might have signals to indicate just block occupancy; most of the discussion so far has been about interlocking signals. Interlocking signals need to be located outside the interlocking (in advance of switches), to allow an opposing move to cross in front of a train stopped for a stop signal.
When I eventually get a layout built, I hope to have control panel indications in addition to wayside signals. A control panel would give you a way to "see" the signal operation.
One reason that I am considering searchlight signals is because I have so many of them on my current layout. Another reason is that I am planning to model the area between Dearborn Station and Alton Junction in Chicago. I want to emphasize the Santa Fe operations. From Alton Junction to Dearborn Station, the Santa Fe used the C&WI tracks and the C&WI used a lot of searchlight signals and signal bridges.
cx500 To expand on another post, on some old ABS installations there were not always signals for each track at the end of a siding, instead just a mast with one head located on the single track beyond the turnout. Train Orders provided the sole movement authority; the signals were mostly a safety overlay. Approaching the siding there was usually a double headed signal, but even if it was "high green" for the mainline, if the train's orders required it to take the siding for a meet it would stop. A crew member would then line the switch (instant change in signal indication) and send the train into the siding.
To expand on another post, on some old ABS installations there were not always signals for each track at the end of a siding, instead just a mast with one head located on the single track beyond the turnout. Train Orders provided the sole movement authority; the signals were mostly a safety overlay. Approaching the siding there was usually a double headed signal, but even if it was "high green" for the mainline, if the train's orders required it to take the siding for a meet it would stop. A crew member would then line the switch (instant change in signal indication) and send the train into the siding.
Exactly correct which is why I wanted to to know what type and purpose the signals were for.
The detail variations in signal installations are endless. I have seen or known of a number, just enough to be aware that there must be countless others. If you are modeling a specific prototype and location, want to be perfectly correct, AND have the ability to develop the necessary signal logic, try to meet your local signal maintainer.
Which is also why I asked. The less prototypical the intent of the signals, the more freedom and less specific the model signals need to be. While not diminishing the large amount of work it takes to install any form of signal system, pretty much anything above what accomplishes the goal becomes "scenery", so the pure functionality doesn't have to be too much of a concern. If you want to put a 3 head signal up, and all the signal does is indicate switch position, all you really need to display is 2 aspects (normal reverse). None of the other 15 possible indications a 3 head signal could display don't ever need to be shown.
While I was very much aware that by adding flashing signals the number of indications of even a single head could be expanded, that adds a whole new layer of complexity that few will dare to attempt in model form. Has anybody tried, for example, to reproduce CROR#422 ("Slow to Limited"), which is a three head signal, red over flashing yellow over flashing green? I understood the original poster as intending a simplified representation while avoiding glaring misplacements.
The detail variations in signal installations are endless. I have seen or known of a number, just enough to be aware that there must be countless others. If you are modeling a specific prototype and location, want to be perfectly correct, AND have the ability to develop the necessary signal logic, try to meet your local signal maintainer. I suspect many of them will be astonished, and then proud of their job, to find somebody is that interested.
steemtrayn cx500 A single searchlight signal can only give three indications, clear, stop, or prepare to stop at next signal (to simplify the operating rules definitions). Not necessarily...by adding a flashing feature, more aspects can be indicated
cx500 A single searchlight signal can only give three indications, clear, stop, or prepare to stop at next signal (to simplify the operating rules definitions).
A single searchlight signal can only give three indications, clear, stop, or prepare to stop at next signal (to simplify the operating rules definitions).
Not necessarily...by adding a flashing feature, more aspects can be indicated
And by adding a letter or number plate you can get other alternatives. In the GCOR a single searchlight with no dwarf signal can display 8 different indications, with a dwarf signal, 16.
Not necessarily...by adding a flashing feature, more aspects can be indicated.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Great information from everyone including the most recent info from cx500, dehusman and wjstix.
I realize that my questions on this issue present some difficulties in providing answers because I want my signal choice and placement to look real and prototypical, but I do not feel compelled to operate the signals prototypically. You guys have all done a splendid job in addressing my questions in this manner, and I appreciate it.
Incidentally, since my new layout will be "based upon the prototype", I need to select a time period to model, and it will be some time between the late 1940's and the early 1950's, so let's say 1948-1954.
Thanks again, and any further thoughts will be appreciated.
richhotrainA couple of questions regarding searchlight signals. On the prototype, where and when were single searchlight signals used versus double searchlight signals? In my circumstances, if I am merely using searchlight signals to indicate the position of the turnout, would I always use single searchlights? Or, how offensive would it be if I used double searchlights for crossovers and single searchlights for simple turnouts? Thanks. Rich
A couple of questions regarding searchlight signals.
I am basing this on Canadian rules but in broad terms most US rules are similar.
A single searchlight signal can only give three indications, clear, stop, or prepare to stop at next signal (to simplify the operating rules definitions). Often even the red actually means stop and proceed at restricted speed, unless it has an plate with the letter "A" below it on the mast; then it means stay stopped.
Two heads in a vertical line provide the same "Absolute" stop indication if they are both red. They will provide information about the route ahead (speed or direction) if one or other searchlight (or both) shows something better than red.
Where they are staggered on a mast it indicates a permissive signal, similar to the single searchlight with no letter. When both red, stop and proceed at restricted speed. If it is red over yellow, say, then approach the next signal at slow speed because you will be taking a diverging track. Yellow over green means slow down to take the diverging route at the next signal, but expect clear track thereafter. The yellow indication with a single head would force the train to approach prepared to stop, which in areas with limited sight lines will slow it unnecessarily.
Generally, at facing point turnouts, or diamonds, the usual practice was to have two heads. When leaving double track or at the far end of a passing siding a single head could be used, usually with the "A" plate.
But model railroads are very compressed and to develop prototypically correct signaling would be a huge challenge. Most installations I have seen use simplified versions and they still look good, especially if they at least turn red when the block beyond is occupied.
Wabashbud Rich, I'm with you I built the layout for my enjoyment and I love to see the signals change. Its not prototypical but it sure is fun.
Rich, I'm with you I built the layout for my enjoyment and I love to see the signals change. Its not prototypical but it sure is fun.
It sure is fun. I have a desire to be prototypical, or at least to be "based upon the prototype", but at some point I just have to draw the line and be satisfied if it "looks real".
richhotrain My first question is: do these various signals have to be viewed from both directions to be prototypical?
They should be viewed by a train approaching them. If they don't point down the tracks then they are "out of service".
My second question is: which side of the tracks is the searchlight signal placed?
My third question is: say a signal bridge spans 4 tracks leading into and out of Dearborn Station, what is the function of the lights on the bridge?
The same function as every other signal. To convey information regarding route, speed, authority and how trains approach the next signal.
Any comments or advice, or criticisms, from everyone that you might have for me would be most appreciated.
If all you are doing is indicating switch position, then I wouldn't get too worked up on being "prototypical" since whatever you do will not be strictly prototype.
As for the first two questions...
Up until the last decade or so, signals were required by regulation to be above and to the right of the track that they were controlling. Now they can be on either side of the track, so you do sometimes see a signal mast with two heads pointing in opposite directions. You would never have seen that before maybe the 1990's.
As for no. 3...
The answer above partially answers it, because you had to have the signal heads above and to the right of the track. If you had say a four track mainline, you often wouldn't have clearance between the tracks to install four separate signal masts between the tracks. Signal bridges allowed each signal to be above and to the right of the track as required. Signals could be placed on both sides of the signal bridge depending on the trackwork it was controlling.
This has changed a little in recent years, but traditionally a single head signal was a block signal, indicating whether the track blocks beyond was clear. Red means the block you're coming up to is occupied and you normally have to stop; yellow means the block is clear but the next block is occupied; green means the next two blocks are clear.
A double or triple head mast usually is an interlocking. This means that there is either a crossover from one mainline track to another (as you'd normally see approaching a busy station), a branchline branching off, or two rail lines crossing at grade. If you came up to a turnout where a branchline split from the mainline, you would see green over red if you were going on the mainline, red over green if you were going on the branch, and red over red if the turnout was aligned for a line that had the next block occupied.
The other two lines above, converging together to become one line, are often signalled in models by just using a single red or green signal head. However in the prototype often a "dummy" red light is added, so it can show green over red for clear or red over red for stop. That's because in the real world, red lights often don't mean "stop" but are "permissive", meaning you can slow way down and enter the block, prepared to stop at any obstruction. Interlocking signals are used at say a grade crossing because red over red ALWAYS means STOP, and there is no chance an engineer would confuse the signal and run thru the signal thinking it was permissive and cause an accident.