dehusman Any place a single mast is used for signals in both directions (such as the picture of the signals shown above), one signal will be on the "wrong side", the fireman's side for half the trains. I don't believe the OP has provided any additional information on what he intends to use the signal system for or how complicated he wants to make it. Without some input on that it will be difficult to help him.
Any place a single mast is used for signals in both directions (such as the picture of the signals shown above), one signal will be on the "wrong side", the fireman's side for half the trains.
I don't believe the OP has provided any additional information on what he intends to use the signal system for or how complicated he wants to make it. Without some input on that it will be difficult to help him.
Hey guys,
My apologies for starting this thread and then disappearing. My kids and grandkids are in town, and we have been running around visiting, and I have not been able to manage this thread until now.
dehusman indicated earlier in this thread that it might help narrow down and focus the answers if I told us what I was going to use the signals to do, what prototype railroad or area I am modeling and what era.
Good point.
Currenty, I have a large L-shaped layout with a double mainline, measuring 42'x22'. It is freelance and not based upon a prototype. I operate in DCC and the main control panel is at the point where the L forms two legs. All of my signals face this point, so that I can see them and their lights. But that means that an engineer coming toward me cannot necessarily see the lights on the signal. I have two types of operating signals, single and double searchlights and dwarf signals, green over red. I also have a few non-operating signal bridges.
I use the searchlights for all turnouts on the double mainline - - green for straight through and red for divergent. A single turnout has a single searchlight signal. A crossover has a double searchlight signal. Why do I do this? Quite honestly, when I set these signals up 7 years ago, I thought it looked cool and it helped to visually show me how the turnouts were set. I gave little regard to prototypical operation.
I use dwarf signals in my yard, again for all turnouts on yard ladders - - green for straight through and red for divergent.
I am contemplating a new layout which would be loosely based on the prototype by modeling the Santa Fe tracks from Alton Junction in Chicago at 21st Street into Dearborn Station at 8th Street. I have no desire to use block signals but, rather, to continue to use signals, searchlights and dwarf signals, to indicate the position of the turnouts. On the track route from 21st Street to 8th Street, there are at least three signal bridges over the 4 main C&WI tracks and the 2 Santa Fe tracks leading into Dearborn Station. I would like to model these signal bridges as operating signals.
My first question is: do these various signals have to be viewed from both directions to be prototypical?
My second question is: which side of the tracks is the searchlight signal placed?
My third question is: say a signal bridge spans 4 tracks leading into and out of Dearborn Station, what is the function of the lights on the bridge?
dehusman, you did a great job of answering these questions in your first response. Based upon my three questions raised here, any additional insights?
Any comments or advice, or criticisms, from everyone that you might have for me would be most appreciated.
Rich
Alton Junction
dehusmanAny place a single mast is used for signals in both directions (such as the picture of the signals shown above), one signal will be on the "wrong side", the fireman's side for half the trains
Yes, Dave, I understand that and it seems pretty obvious to me that that would be the case. But era was mentioned above. So my question would be in the era of steam engines and 1st generation diesels operated long hood forward, where the engineer's visibility is restricted, would they have put two signals for opposing directions on the same mast, assuming a single track line? Or is this a "modern" day practice?
maxman Not sure what they would do on multiple track.
This line (CN's Holly Subdivision) is double tracked between Pontiac and Detroit. For the newly installed signals, each main track has its own single mast, mounted on the "outside" of the track. Each mast has two heads pointing in opposite directions, similar to the above.
But that's just this CN sub - other prototypes may be different. The OP will want to do some additional research when his focus has been narrowed beyond gathering background info.
maxmanI don't think you would find signals mounted that way when there was a boiler or long hood at the front of the engine.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
An old timer, who is a retired railroad employee ,explained it to me this way "generally speaking most signals were located on the engineers side or what you people would call the right side not only for the fact that the engineer is the guy running the train so of course he should have clear view of the signal and also for the simple fact of logistics for the equipment needed to support the signal. To quote him "They don't work on air" so why run cables under the tracks and in the event that you have some sort of problem where the cables were effected you would now need to take up the tracks for repairs and halt revenue service again to quote him, "yeah like that would put a smile on the face of some mucky muck up in the front office" He ended his little railroading lesson by saying well there's always an exception to the rule and walked away with out explaining it...........lol
Prototype signal heads have mounting adjustments so the light can be aligned for best sighting. If the track is curved, spreadlight or deflecting lenses may be required to make a wider beam. (Page 61 of Introduction to North American Railway Signaling by the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers)
Mark
odaveSo era might be another factor to consider.
That might be true. Most railroads run with the small hood forward, so I'd guess that there would be adequate visibility for the engineer to see the signal no matter which side of the rails it might be mounted. I would assume that as long as the engineers knew the rules for that section of railroad there would not be a problem, at least on a single track line. Not sure what they would do on multiple track.
I don't think you would find signals mounted that way when there was a boiler or long hood at the front of the engine.
markpierceIs there a medical title/description for this affliction other than "mentally defective."
"spatially challenged"?
maxman Is one of the heads mounted temporarily?
Sorry - when I took that picture, the signal had been newly installed but not yet activated, which is why the heads are turned aside. When it was activated, the heads were aligned with the track as normal.
odave On one of the lines I railfan regularly, older signals laid out like maxman mentions are being replaced with single masts that have both directions on them:
On one of the lines I railfan regularly, older signals laid out like maxman mentions are being replaced with single masts that have both directions on them:
Hmmm. Not sure what is going on here. Those signals look like they're facing 90 degrees from each other. Is one of the heads mounted temporarily?
Regarding visibility on the model....the signals on my friends railroad are generally close enough to the aisle that the "engineer" can see them as he walks with the train. There are certain locations, however, where the signal head is turned slightly toward the aisle so that the 1:1 scale engineer can see them. The HO engineers would probably have a visibility issue, but so far none of them have complained. Or maybe they are complaining and we can't hear their 1/87.1 scale voices.
Moobilman, for lack of a better label you may have been afflicted with what I call "Mark's syndrome." When keyboarding, I'm often writing the opposite of what I'm thinking, like up/down, left/right, west/east, agree/disagree, etc. Proofreading closely often doesn't work, but immediately after posting the errors are glaring. Seems like I'm always editing my initial posts within minutes.
Is there a medical title/description for this affliction other than "mentally defective."
Maxman,
Ooops, my coffee hadn't kicked in yet and I got it backwards. I actually caught it myself as I was reading the postings, and then saw your note. Ha, I'm a pretty good typist and too many times I do not go back and check what I wrote. I need to work on that!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
As noted above, it can vary with the prototype.
maxmanAnd the signals would be mounted facing the train on the right side, as this is the engineer's side. If the main is single track, then the signal for the opposite direction would be on the left side of the track and be facing the opposite direction.
So era might be another factor to consider.
richhotrainWhere are signals supposed to be placed and what type of signal is most appropriate in each instance?
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/index.html
Wikipedia has a decent page too.
As far as the modeling them goes, I have only operated on one layout that had a signalling system. It seemed that the viewing angle was such that I could always see the aspects even though I was not sitting in the HO scale cab. I did not look too close, but I think either the bulbs were sticking out farther than the hoods, or the hoods didn't stick out as far.
I'd be interested in seeing pictures of model signals that are viewable from the aisles too...
OK, a memory jog results in one more edit. A guy on another forum I frequent is a signal nut and has a working system, at least on his old layout. I have never seen the layout in person, but he has an excellent website with plenty of videos. Here's the relevant page:
http://trainman86.webs.com/runningthelayout.htm
richhotrain My question is this. What is the proper protocol for the placement of signals? When are they supposed to be seen from either direction? Are model signals made to be seen from both directions? Where are signals supposed to be placed and what type of signal is most appropriate in each instance?
My question is this. What is the proper protocol for the placement of signals? When are they supposed to be seen from either direction? Are model signals made to be seen from both directions? Where are signals supposed to be placed and what type of signal is most appropriate in each instance?
To completely answer your questions would require a couple books worth of answers.
Signals are obviously placed facing the direction of movement they govern. Where they are placed depends on what type of signal system is involved (ABS, CTC, Interlocking) and what they govern. Whether they display signals in both directions on the same mast depend on what type of signal system is involved (ABS, CTC, Interlocking) and what they govern.
Then there is the issue of what you are doing with regard to the model system, since many model signal systems aren't set up to operate like a prototype system. Many are just switch indicators, most don't have full intermediate and approach signals, many are set up for just 2 color (R/G) as opposed to prototype signals with 4 colors (red-yellow-green-lunar) and flashing aspects.
It might help narrow down and focus the answers if you told us what you were ging to use the signals to do, what prototype railroad or area you are modeling and what era.
mobilman44 Most RRs run contrary to vehicle traffic on multi lane mains, so typically the signals would be on the left side
I'm not sure I agree with this. I believe that generally most railroads are right hand running. And the signals would be mounted facing the train on the right side, as this is the engineer's side. If the main is single track, then the signal for the opposite direction would be on the left side of the track and be facing the opposite direction.
On a multiple track main there would probably be an overhead signal bridge of some type. In this case the signal would face the on-coming train, and would be offset to the right. The opposing signal would be mounted on the other side of the signal bridge, and be offset to the other side where it could be seen by the engineer.
Regards
Hi!
I'm anxious to read the replies to your questions! Years ago I picked up a small Kalmbach book called "Signals" (I believe) and it was a major help in understanding what they are all about.
I believe (NOT positive) that signals are placed to give the train crews the best view. Most RRs run contrary to vehicle traffic on multi lane mains, so typically the signals would be on the left side - but not always. Also, as I recall from my youth, the C&NW is one of the majors that ran the same as vehicle traffic, and of course their may be others that do that too.
From a modeling perspective, especially if one has operating signals, I would want them placed so I could see them. Those that need to be pointed away from the operator could be dummies. After all, operating signals can cost some major bucks for even a relatively small layout.
Good luck!
On my current layout, which I built for personal enjoyment and not intended to be prototypical, I installed signals in the appropriate locations. However, I installed them so I could easily see them and their red/green lights from where I would most often be standing to operate the layout. So, the signals are not necessarily facing the direction of the train crew in all cases.
I am not even sure of the right questions to be asked here, so don't hesitate to comment on what I need to know for my next layout which will be more prototypical if I can help it.
Thanks.