hi Aralai
nice trackplan, gives a real good impression about your intentions. Some remarks:
all your switches seem to be drawn optimistic by hand. A #4 switch must be about 8" long to get a 2" spacing (4x2=8), so passing sidings are may be shorter then you think. A little bit of fine-tuning is needed, the basic idea is great.
I like the staging were it is, you can reach into the backside.
Your long passanger cars and modern? freightcars would love an even higher numbered switch, at least on the main. A #6 switch is about 12" long, you'll have to find out what is best for you.
The second crossover on Mulock is not really necessarily, an extra spur to serve the other plant?.
The junction between Bradford and the drop-in could be near Davis, creates more length for the yard. Adding a (imagined) connection south of Bradford can add some more freight switching.
Your tracks are kept far away from the pit everywhere. A little bit of variation would ......... again only some fine tuning to do.
Am I right? One of the hidden tracks is for staging the other an industrial spur? Nice solution; Stein used a road overpass to camouflage the entrance.
Good luck, have fun
Paul
AralaiOK - here is my new layout. It will run point to point using hidden Toronto Staging behind backdrop as GO Transit Commuter train from Toronto, stopping at Aurora, Newmarket and terminating at the Bradford Yard and back using push/pull as per the prototype.Freight is local to several industries - Rimply Mfg in Newmarket, an additional industry (need to research what it was in 1989), and industry in Aurora, which serves as the hidden entry to the Toronto Staging sidings - 1 for GO train and 1 for freight.Bradford Yard has 5 sidings for GO trains and freight.The Aurora line ends normally after the track crosses Yonge Street on a bridge. A drop-in can be placed to allow continuous loop operation. A hidden siding under the Newmarket Cemetary completes the loop. This siding is hidden from view by trees and foliage. Let me know what you think...
OK - here is my new layout. It will run point to point using hidden Toronto Staging behind backdrop as GO Transit Commuter train from Toronto, stopping at Aurora, Newmarket and terminating at the Bradford Yard and back using push/pull as per the prototype.
Freight is local to several industries - Rimply Mfg in Newmarket, an additional industry (need to research what it was in 1989), and industry in Aurora, which serves as the hidden entry to the Toronto Staging sidings - 1 for GO train and 1 for freight.
Bradford Yard has 5 sidings for GO trains and freight.
The Aurora line ends normally after the track crosses Yonge Street on a bridge. A drop-in can be placed to allow continuous loop operation. A hidden siding under the Newmarket Cemetary completes the loop. This siding is hidden from view by trees and foliage.
Let me know what you think...
Main part of layout looks doable.
But I believe that the yard on the lower left has way too optimistic turnouts (yard ladder is way too short).
Try drawing up a no 4 turnout (smallest advisable - diverges from main at 1:4 - one unit to the side for every 4 forward). As a quick rule of thumb (not accurate - you can cut down a bit, but good enough for rough estimates), for 2" between tracks, it takes 8" along one track for the track to cross over to the other track .
Four turnouts one after the other would create a yard ladder that is 4x8 = 32" long - almost three feet.Yours is drawn as taking about 1 foot. Way too optimistic.
Here is a sketch of a pretty minimal yard ladder for short staging (cars shown are 80 foot passenger cars, engine GP40-2):
Note that even for a configuration like this, the yard ladder takes about 2 feet.
Try to move Bradford right (closer to the layout operator pit edge), and see if you can run staging up along the wall behind Bradford
Grin, Stein
My Build Thread: https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/185298.aspx
Follow me on Instagram: https://instagram.com/stephenkingsmaine
Yes - all good ideas which I will definitely incorporate. Thanks!
Bought my GO Transit GP40 loco and coaches today! They look awesome - just like the real thing! Feeling better about deciding to go with the Newmarket locale and the space is looking much better too...
AralaiStein - I like the layout. Advantage to have a passageway to get behind the staging tracks. Disadvantages to me - less backdrop around whole layout, plus I was planning to multi-use the room by storing boxes under the bench - still would work but not as neat I suppose. Gets me thinking out of the box though - and that's good....
Stein - I like the layout. Advantage to have a passageway to get behind the staging tracks. Disadvantages to me - less backdrop around whole layout, plus I was planning to multi-use the room by storing boxes under the bench - still would work but not as neat I suppose. Gets me thinking out of the box though - and that's good....
Was not intended as a layout for you - but I thought it possible that you could use some of the track planning tricks as part of your design for your layout like:
- tracks going behind or into buildings, - staging, - sidings designed to fit trains length, - locating scenes with passing tracks in the opposite corners, so you don't see them both at once from inside the operator pit, - using crossings and special turnouts to get two industry tracks into the same area
Stuff like that. But I think you will be better off starting your design from the prototype, and only retort to "modeling tricks" if you can't make the prototype design work.
Smile, Stein
Stein - I like the layout. Advantage to have a passageway to get behind the staging tracks. Disadvantages to me - less backdrop around whole layout, plus I was planning to multi-use the room by storing boxes under the bench - still would work but not as neat I suppose. Gets me thinking out of the box though - and that's good. (Actually looking at my plan, I can access my hidden staging siding from the back end of my furnace / water heater. A bit difficult but could be done in case of trouble. I guess alternatively a lift-out section of backdrop would be pretty easy to do, so could access from other side.
Some updated measurements for sections:
1. GO Train Staging - Bradford - 36" x 30" with at least 3 sidings off the main line - each siding would hold about 2 of the Bombardier GO coaches or one coach and GP40 loco. Maybe 3 at a squeeze. (GO Train is made up of GP40 and three coaches - well technically two coaches and a control car. Total length of train is approx 35" plus GP40.
2. Newmarket - two sections - L shaped. One section - 84" x 30" - includes existing GO Station & Platform - level crossing across Davis Drive and old Grand Trunk station, as well as Fairy Lake and Main Street. Second Section - round bend of "L" - 48" x 24" - level crossing at Mulock St and Magna Auto parts plant with siding.
3. Transition section of 42" x 24" thru countryside towards Aurora.
Edited: as we speak the transition section is getting eaten up by a siding and industry :)
4. Aurora - Two sections in an L Shape - One Section - 36" x 18" has siding to industrial plant. This siding enters the plant and from there curves into hidden staging siding representing Toronto. Siding will be hidden behind backdrop. Siding length - Hidden = 60" plus. Visible = approx 30" from frog to building entry. Second Aurora section around bend of 'L' - in front of backdrop that hides staging siding - 48" x 24" - this section has Wellington Street level crossing, Aurora GO Station (former Grand Trunk Station). Line terminates at end of bench.
A Drop-in can be placed so the hidden staging siding can continue and hook up to the Newmarket loop, or as pointed out by stein - an option to run pendulum mode for the GO Trains.
Working on the layout.
Btw - maybe not directly applicable to your layout, since you will be basing your tracks on prototype locations, but here is a track plan I drew up a year ago or so to aide a discussion on some standard tricks I would consider to fit in industries etc on a bedroom sized donut style layout.
As always - it is not a great work of art - but it may illustrate some concepts.
steinjr What I have done: 1) I decided that I was designing the layout for train lengths of one GP7 + 8 40' cars 2) I decided that I was designing the layout for 1-3 operators 3) Basic idea is from HOG (Hearth of Georgia) "better beginner layout", ie donut shaped layout with operator in pitnarrow benchwork, wide pittwo passing sidings curving around opposite cornersfairly gentle (25-27" radius) curves on the main 4) Let access track go behind industries, but not places where you need to couple/uncouple 5) Keep most track within 20" of the operator's edge - ie reachable This would look the best if you get it up fairly high, so you look in on the layout instead of down on the layout. Some points I wanted to illustrate: A: Primary Yard lead - preferably long enough to pull an entire track B: Two A/D tracks long enough for a standard train - w/engine escape between them C: Two classification tracks for primary yard operator D: Either secondary yard lead, part of runaround or third class track for primary yard operator E: Four shorter class tracks for secondary yard operator - or caboose, RIP & engine service F: First passing siding - long enough to let a train of engine + 8 cars take the siding G: Second passing siding - long enough to let a train of engine + 8 cars take the siding The latter siding also is part of the access to three of the industries (3, 6 and 7) - note that you can let industry tracks cross each other in a diamond, or run off the end of the siding to save space.Edit: I forgot a crossover rightwards from the main to the uppermost A/D track - coming in just to the right of the engine escape crossover between the two A/D tracks. It is desirable to have a way to get a train going counterclockwise into the yard or staging, or a train going clockwise out of the yard/staging, without having to back the train up to get out on or in from the main.Notes on industries: 1: Team track (train to truck unloading) - probably will want fairly frequent switching. Can be tucked away in a corner of the yard 2: Some kind of fenced yard type industry - observe position between main and operator pit. Allows trains on main to pass behind industry. If necessary the industry can be imagined to be "in the pit" - with just the siding between the main and the pit. 3: Longish and narrow industry, track on pit side of industry. Functions as a view block - you cannot see the entire train waiting in the double ended siding. Benchwork (and industry) could be made wider here. 4 & 5 : industry flats up against a backdrop - you can have several industries on the same track. Putting the track up against the backdrop and having industries just 1-2" deep works well - because you are probably primarily interested in what is going on at the track, not in what the opposite end of the factory looks like. 6: if you want some kind of tipple loader - make sure there is enough room beyond the loader to shove some empty cars past the loader - and then pull them out again past the loader while they are being loaded. To load 3 cars, you need space for 5 - 2 before the loader, 1 under the loader, 2 after the loader. Two under tipple tracks probably will be enough - one for leaving 3 empty cars, one for picking up 3 filled cars. 7: Track can go into buildings or under the front of building - as in by a covered loading dock. 8: A building can be used to hide the sneakoff to staging from being too obvious 9: Hidden staging track w/access from the backside. Each staging track can hold two trains during a session without any need for fiddling trains in staging : one train that leaves the staging track to arrive on the layout, and one train that leaves the layout to arrive at the staging track. Just intended as a handful of potensially helpful hints - obviously you don't have to apply any of these tricks to your design, but if you see something you like, just grab it - I have pinched every one of these ideas from other and better designers over time :-)
What I have done:
1) I decided that I was designing the layout for train lengths of one GP7 + 8 40' cars
2) I decided that I was designing the layout for 1-3 operators
3) Basic idea is from HOG (Hearth of Georgia) "better beginner layout", ie
4) Let access track go behind industries, but not places where you need to couple/uncouple
5) Keep most track within 20" of the operator's edge - ie reachable
This would look the best if you get it up fairly high, so you look in on the layout instead of down on the layout.
Some points I wanted to illustrate:
A: Primary Yard lead - preferably long enough to pull an entire track B: Two A/D tracks long enough for a standard train - w/engine escape between them C: Two classification tracks for primary yard operator D: Either secondary yard lead, part of runaround or third class track for primary yard operator E: Four shorter class tracks for secondary yard operator - or caboose, RIP & engine service F: First passing siding - long enough to let a train of engine + 8 cars take the siding G: Second passing siding - long enough to let a train of engine + 8 cars take the siding
The latter siding also is part of the access to three of the industries (3, 6 and 7) - note that you can let industry tracks cross each other in a diamond, or run off the end of the siding to save space.
Edit: I forgot a crossover rightwards from the main to the uppermost A/D track - coming in just to the right of the engine escape crossover between the two A/D tracks. It is desirable to have a way to get a train going counterclockwise into the yard or staging, or a train going clockwise out of the yard/staging, without having to back the train up to get out on or in from the main.
Notes on industries:
1: Team track (train to truck unloading) - probably will want fairly frequent switching. Can be tucked away in a corner of the yard
2: Some kind of fenced yard type industry - observe position between main and operator pit. Allows trains on main to pass behind industry. If necessary the industry can be imagined to be "in the pit" - with just the siding between the main and the pit.
3: Longish and narrow industry, track on pit side of industry. Functions as a view block - you cannot see the entire train waiting in the double ended siding. Benchwork (and industry) could be made wider here.
4 & 5 : industry flats up against a backdrop - you can have several industries on the same track. Putting the track up against the backdrop and having industries just 1-2" deep works well - because you are probably primarily interested in what is going on at the track, not in what the opposite end of the factory looks like.
6: if you want some kind of tipple loader - make sure there is enough room beyond the loader to shove some empty cars past the loader - and then pull them out again past the loader while they are being loaded. To load 3 cars, you need space for 5 - 2 before the loader, 1 under the loader, 2 after the loader. Two under tipple tracks probably will be enough - one for leaving 3 empty cars, one for picking up 3 filled cars.
7: Track can go into buildings or under the front of building - as in by a covered loading dock.
8: A building can be used to hide the sneakoff to staging from being too obvious
9: Hidden staging track w/access from the backside. Each staging track can hold two trains during a session without any need for fiddling trains in staging : one train that leaves the staging track to arrive on the layout, and one train that leaves the layout to arrive at the staging track.
Just intended as a handful of potensially helpful hints - obviously you don't have to apply any of these tricks to your design, but if you see something you like, just grab it - I have pinched every one of these ideas from other and better designers over time :-)
I had been drawing a design like this today, I would have tried at all cost to have wider aisles - that 18" space on the back by the staging in the plan above is really asking for trouble.
steinjrI'd say that both the number and size of scenes and the chosen theme sounds both very realistic and very fun! Btw - if your GO trains are push/pull train sets, you could possibly also do continuous run in pendulum mode for display running too - sensors by track to stop the trains and after a while send them off in opposite direction.
Btw - if your GO trains are push/pull train sets, you could possibly also do continuous run in pendulum mode for display running too - sensors by track to stop the trains and after a while send them off in opposite direction.
They are push/pull - and that is a great idea! Thanks.
AralaiI am thinking about a different locale which would be much easier for me to detail well, as it is the area I currently live in - the Bradford / Newmarket / Aurora corridor. It was originally the first Grand Trunk line in Canada, then taken over by CN and now run by GO Transit - commuter passenger service. I would model from Bradford (GO Train Staging in real life), main section of 72" x 30" and 60" x 24" of Newmarket with both the new GO Station and old Grand Trunk station as well as part of Main Street, a section of 60" x 30" for Aurora and then some hidden staging to represent Toronto for GO trains. The era would be present, so freight traffic is limited to a few local industries - a Magna Auto parts plant at the south end of Newmarket and one or two industries in Aurora. I would have a drop-in to run continuous when needed, otherwise operation would be GO train from Toronto staging to Bradford and back, and freight would be various to and from industries. It would allow a large focus on detailed modeling of Newmarket area. Thoughts?
I am thinking about a different locale which would be much easier for me to detail well, as it is the area I currently live in - the Bradford / Newmarket / Aurora corridor. It was originally the first Grand Trunk line in Canada, then taken over by CN and now run by GO Transit - commuter passenger service.
I would model from Bradford (GO Train Staging in real life), main section of 72" x 30" and 60" x 24" of Newmarket with both the new GO Station and old Grand Trunk station as well as part of Main Street, a section of 60" x 30" for Aurora and then some hidden staging to represent Toronto for GO trains.
The era would be present, so freight traffic is limited to a few local industries - a Magna Auto parts plant at the south end of Newmarket and one or two industries in Aurora.
I would have a drop-in to run continuous when needed, otherwise operation would be GO train from Toronto staging to Bradford and back, and freight would be various to and from industries. It would allow a large focus on detailed modeling of Newmarket area. Thoughts?
I'd say that both the number and size of scenes and the chosen theme sounds both very realistic and very fun!
Smile,Stein
I am thinking about a different locale which would be much easier for me to detail well, as it is the area I currently live in - the Bradford / Newmarket / Aurora corridor. It was originally the first Grand Trunk line in Canada, then taken over by CN and now run by GO Transit - commuter passenger service. I would model from Bradford (GO Train Staging in real life), main section of 72" x 30" and 60" x 24" of Newmarket with both the new GO Station and old Grand Trunk station as well as part of Main Street, a section of 60" x 30" for Aurora and then some hidden staging to represent Toronto for GO trains. The era would be present, so freight traffic is limited to a few local industries - a Magna Auto parts plant at the south end of Newmarket and one or two industries in Aurora. I would have a drop-in to run continuous when needed, otherwise operation would be GO train from Toronto staging to Bradford and back, and freight would be various to and from industries. It would allow a large focus on detailed modeling of Newmarket area. Thoughts?
AralaiI had not even calculated train lengths.
Dear Aralai,
when you are thinking about long mainline trains you have to find out what this means in terms of space, two engines and 20 modern 60-feeters eat up 15'. (and 20 cars is a short train ) It also means that when you want to break up or build those trains your yarddesign must allow these trainlength. Tony Koester's Frankfurtyard, well covered in mr-planning, may give you an idea about the size it takes. And Tony's NKP is a small backwater RR in comparison to yours.
AralaiI may need to take a second look at what I want to include in my layout.
I would have some sleepless nights about N-scale. Also Tony Koester said "it's what N-scale can do for you". But, for the same reasons?, he build in HO-scale too.
So many things to consider
from Holland, Paul
On the car lengths, keep in mind that in the 1970s, 40' boxcars were being phased out. You'll want to figure for a mix of 50' and 40' boxcars. IIRC an HO 50' boxcar is in the 7" range.
On the yard issue, one approach would be to model just one end of it, and terminate the body tracks at the wall or backdrop, and maybe use a mirror to "extend" them. The modeled yard is therefore stub ended, thus allowing you to sort cars, with the rest of it being implied to extend through your walls off into the distance.
I'm not sure if your space would allow multiple decks, but you may want to consider it. The decks do not need to be directly connected by a helix or a nolix. Intead, they are connected conceptually via operations or staging. This is an idea put forth by Byron Henderson (cuyama) in his Oahu Ry. & Land Co. layout found in the 2008 issue of Model Railroad Planning. Maybe an upper deck could be used for continuous running, with your bridge scene and Joffre yard. The lower deck could have your industries and switching. Trains can be transferred between decks on cassettes if you're feeling energetic, or even just through staging. If you're interested in this concept, it would be worth ordering that back issue as Byron can explain it better than I can.
AralaiThe yard may be the biggest issue. Would it be wrong to scale it down in terms of number of tracks and length do you think - or best to hide it representatively like you suggest?
Depends on why you want the yard on your layout - do you want it primarily as a scenic background element, or do you want to actually sort cars and build trains there for quite a few different destinations ?
That really puts things in perspective. I kind of found that out today when I took everyone's advice and put pencil to graph paper - at least in terms of track - I had not even calculated train lengths. I am not fussy about N-Scale - it is hard to see the details without my glasses :), however may be worth considering before I get into things too much. Alternatively as you say, I may need to take a second look at what I want to include in my layout. I will do some measuring and calculating tonight and think some more about it. The yard may be the biggest issue. Would it be wrong to scale it down in terms of number of tracks and length do you think - or best to hide it representatively like you suggest?
First the description of the area you find your modeling inspiration from, with a few line feeds added :-)
Aralai in a nutshell, Charny (Joffre Yard) is on the south shore of the St.Lawrence River just south of Quebec City which is on the north shore. The CN mainline there runs to the west to points west - ex: Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Windsor, Detroit and Chicago. To the east in runs to points east - New Brunswick, Maine, New Hampshire. There are two main wyes that run to the north, across the famous Pont du Quebec to Quebec City, and to the south to points south - New York, Boston, Washington, Atlanta.CN located the Joffre Yard there for obvious reasons. The track is one of the busiest in North America, and runs both freight and passenger traffic. Passenger traffic is a mix of commuter and long run along the Windsor-Quebec City corridor for the most part. Freight is sorted at the Joffre Yard for every conceivable kind of traffic - local and long distance, with a focus on Joffre as a hub for cars coming from the west, east and south, to be stored, organized, setup in new trains and sent on their way to points west, east and south. Local freight traffic is mostly to and from Quebec City.
in a nutshell, Charny (Joffre Yard) is on the south shore of the St.Lawrence River just south of Quebec City which is on the north shore.
The CN mainline there runs to the west to points west - ex: Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Windsor, Detroit and Chicago. To the east in runs to points east - New Brunswick, Maine, New Hampshire. There are two main wyes that run to the north, across the famous Pont du Quebec to Quebec City, and to the south to points south - New York, Boston, Washington, Atlanta.CN located the Joffre Yard there for obvious reasons.
The track is one of the busiest in North America, and runs both freight and passenger traffic. Passenger traffic is a mix of commuter and long run along the Windsor-Quebec City corridor for the most part.
Freight is sorted at the Joffre Yard for every conceivable kind of traffic - local and long distance, with a focus on Joffre as a hub for cars coming from the west, east and south, to be stored, organized, setup in new trains and sent on their way to points west, east and south.
Local freight traffic is mostly to and from Quebec City.
Aralai So to simplify the layout - a manline running east-west with the Joffre Yard in the middle and two wyes - one heading north and the other south. There is a lot of possibilities for LDE's in the area - ex: Ultramar has a refinery on the banks of the St. Lawrence River, there are multiple industrial areas and intermodal facilities. My vision anticipates minimal passenger - Commuter train service and perhaps a train running the Windsor-Quebec City run. The operations will be mostly freight - mixed, and will be both local and long distance. The long distance will sort as detailed above, and the local will be sorted to the local LDE's that I will have - ex: Intermodal, perhaps the refinery, and industries. For the most part, it is helpful to hear how to translate a real world railway into a scale operation - ie: size and number of passing tracks, sidings, spurs, distances between LDE's, where to stage and why.
So to simplify the layout - a manline running east-west with the Joffre Yard in the middle and two wyes - one heading north and the other south.
There is a lot of possibilities for LDE's in the area - ex: Ultramar has a refinery on the banks of the St. Lawrence River, there are multiple industrial areas and intermodal facilities.
My vision anticipates minimal passenger - Commuter train service and perhaps a train running the Windsor-Quebec City run.
The operations will be mostly freight - mixed, and will be both local and long distance.
The long distance will sort as detailed above, and the local will be sorted to the local LDE's that I will have - ex: Intermodal, perhaps the refinery, and industries.
For the most part, it is helpful to hear how to translate a real world railway into a scale operation - ie: size and number of passing tracks, sidings, spurs, distances between LDE's, where to stage and why.
Mmm - I think you are overly optimistic about how much you can fit into your layout and still have room to run trains (which was your main interest, right ?).
Think about it this way - 20 feet is quite a bit of space on a 10x10 foot H0 scale (1:87.1) layout. It is up one wall and down the adjoining wall - or roughly half your available circumference, if you view your layout as a circle that you will run from inside the hole.
In real life, those 20 linear feet on the H0 layout corresponds to a mere 1700 feet - a single not very long siding or a single yard track.
If you run 1950s 40' boxcars, each boxcar is 40x12" = 480" long in real life. In 1:87.1 scale, it is 480/87.1 = 5.5" long. Or put another way - you can have two 40' boxcars per 11" of siding. If you want to run 89 foot cars, you can fit approximately one such car per foot of track.
Let's say a reasonable siding or spur or yard track for a small 10x10 foot layout is about 6 feet long.
Then that 6 foot siding has room for six 89-foot cars or twelve 40-foot cars. Less, since you probably need some room for the engines as well :-)
For a H0 layout in the kind of space you are talking about, you are not going to be running longish trains of say twenty 40-foot cars or ten 89-foot cars - you would need 10 foot of track to just have the train standing still, and 30 feet of track to have the train stand still on one side of the yard, creep into the yard, and then move out and stop just on the other side of the yard.
So it is probably not going to work all that well to try to model traffic flow of multiple long trains between multiple points.
What you probably can find room in H0 scale for is to pick two or three small scenic spots you like (or industries you like), and do a twice around the room loop, with hidden staging tracks representing Joffre Yard down along the left wall.
An illustration showing a train consisting of two GP40-2 engines and six 89 foot cars relative to the length of a loop around the room:
If your main interest is running longish trains through the scenery, with a train length or more separation between the main scenes, you should look into N scale (divide lengths needed for H0 by 1.8, or equivalently - fit 1.8 times as many cars into the same track length) or Z scale (where the multiplier is 2.5, since Z scale is 1:220). Stein
Stein (or Aralai or both)
i've read it, it carefully describes the pain you'll get when running two trains around a single track oval; even(?) if you have two passing sidings. Also the late John Amstrong advocated to doubletrack the layout in those circumstances; if running two trains at the same time is what you'r after anyhow. A rural example that's discussed on the forum right now is called FOX River. With some nice comments by Cayuma; he is also giving a link to his outstanding webside.
You'r right, we Dutch are also famous for being too direct or rude. I maybe offended Aralai, but deep down i felt a bit offended too. I should have learned to respond in another way. Again: i am very sorry.
when giving comments on someone's work it's very hard to find out where to start. I am a mrr'er since i was 12 yrs old, more then 50 yrs ago; i made all the mistakes you can imagine. learning the hard way. Torn between the feeling to race to the hobbyshop (and start building) and all those old guy's incl. the shopowner, in my case, telling to start thinking first.
There must be some wow-layout, you've seen in a MRR-magazine. Share those feelings, so we can get an idea about your likings. Ulrich is probably right, so much to chose between. Just like him, you can always "copy" the one you like most. He started with a MR-project layout Bob Smauss designed and build 10? years ago. Stein is showing you a lot of completely different rr, i tried the same in my first comment. You can find so many designs on the web; do you have access to the MR-layout library? Witch one has the X-factor for you?
Back to your design, i like the donut, you can have moderate radii (24") and switches(#5 or #6) so more modern equipment is not out of place. The duckunder is something you should really think about. I would love to build a fragile and working swingbridge, but i would be the first one also to bump into it. In mr-planning 2009 you can read about the bridge David Stuart made. He and his crew are very happy with it, but he created more a nod-under; he build his layout rather high. Stein also has a bridge closing the gap, he likes to be a railwatcher himself occasionally (my guess only, you can ask him); but he is going for a less brittle one.
Ulrich presented you the HOG, rural and 50'th; waiting for it's demise? With some staging added in the lower left corner you have a nice, simple and buildable layout. Rural area's 50 yrs ago can be trans- formed into modern suburban area's to day. When reading Cayuama's webside you will encounter the word balance a lot of times. I like you to think about consistent-design too. When you try to run modern very, very long auto-racks over (too) small radii and pushing a string of them over a #4 crossover you will quickly discover the consequences. While those radii and switches perform swell on the Milw. Beerline; equipment, trackwork, theme and era just match.
Have fun, I apologize for being too rude and I would love to see a neat version of your ideas.( a pencil, a ...... is all you need.) Are you familiar with the square concept of John Amstrong? It helped me a lot to find out quickly what fitted in my space.
From holland, with respect
Thanks odave & Stein. No slight intended to anyone, but for me, good solid positive feedback is much more useful as I can build from it. You have picked up well on the fact that modeling and being a railfan is probably a higher priority for me than hardcore operations. While I understand a lot of people here are obviously extremely hard core ops folks, I appreciate that you respect that others may not be. That said, I do want to run operationally as I feel it will keep things from getting boring. While I am not a hardcore railway operations guy, my family has been in real railway operations for several generations, and one of the reasons I picked Quebec, is because I am quite familiar with the area. I do need to get a better understanding and document the various operations in the area, but in a nutshell, Charny (Joffre Yard) is on the south shore of the St.Lawrence River just south of Quebec City which is on the north shore. The CN mainline there runs to the west to points west - ex: Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Windsor, Detroit and Chicago. To the east in runs to points east - New Brunswick, Maine, New Hampshire. There are two main wyes that run to the north, across the famous Pont du Quebec to Quebec City, and to the south to points south - New York, Boston, Washington, Atlanta. CN located the Joffre Yard there for obvious reasons. The track is one of the busiest in North America, and runs both freight and passenger traffic. Passenger traffic is a mix of commuter and long run along the Windsor-Quebec City corridor for the most part. Freight is sorted at the Joffre Yard for every conceivable kind of traffic - local and long distance, with a focus on Joffre as a hub for cars coming from the west, east and south, to be stored, organized, setup in new trains and sent on their way to points west, east and south. Local freight traffic is mostly to and from Quebec City. So to simplify the layout - a manline running east-west with the Joffre Yard in the middle and two wyes - one heading north and the other south. There is a lot of possibilities for LDE's in the area - ex: Ultramar has a refinery on the banks of the St. Lawrence River, there are multiple industrial areas and intermodal facilities. My vision anticipates minimal passenger - Commuter train service and perhaps a train running the Windsor-Quebec City run. The operations will be mostly freight - mixed, and will be both local and long distance. The long distance will sort as detailed above, and the local will be sorted to the local LDE's that I will have - ex: Intermodal, perhaps the refinery, and industries. I believe I have a good base to build on, and that I will be able to flesh out the details of both the operations and the LDE's prior to building. For the most part, it is helpful to hear how to translate a real world railway into a scale operation - ie: size and number of passing tracks, sidings, spurs, distances between LDE's, where to stage and why. I can be blunt too - if you just want to criticize, save your time and move along. If you are interested in helping out someone who is interested in building a layout based on the above and feel you can offer some positive suggestions and specific constructive criticism, then I very much appreciate it. If each time I review the layout and start to get a better picture of my specific operations and move closer to a good layout before I build, then that is my short-term goal.
In addition to Stein's suggestion of developing a vision of how you see yourself running the layout, it would be good to write down your givens and druthers on paper (or print them out) and tape them up in your work area so you can constantly refer to them as a reminder of what you want to do. From gleaning information from various postings in this thread, a start of this list would be:
Givens - constraints that can't be changed, or are difficult to change:
1. Available space = ~9.5' X ~10.5'
Druthers - things you want, but can be changed:
1. Era is 1970s 2. Setting is the Quebec City area3. Scale is HO4. Would like to model part of Joffre yard5. Would like to model the full-circle roundhouse at Joffre yard6. Would like to model the Quebec Railway Bridge7. Would like to model a key industrial area
You already realize that you probably can't achieve all of your druthers in your space. But don't forget that you don't have to model it in exact scale.
Also from that list, I think that maybe you picture yourself as more of a modeler and railfan than a hardcore "operations" type. And that's perfectly OK.
From Bing, it looks like this is the area you're looking at. It does seem very interesting and scenic! The bridge and the roundhouse are in close proximity. The full-round roundhouse will take up quite a bit of space, but it does seem like a high priority druther for you. But if the act of modeling it, and then doing hostler and service operations around it will give you great satisfaction, then you should give it a shot. Maybe a mainline train can orbit on a loop and across the railway bridge as you operate in the service area. This might be boring for some, but it may not be boring for you. You are the only one who counts.
Here's an HO model a full-round roundhouse in Durand, Michigan (website):
As you can see, they put it in a corner and it takes up a lot of space. But I can tell you it is very impressive when you see it. Maybe a next step would be to get some measurements on the real roundhouse, scale it to HO, and see if it can reasonably fit in a corner. Don't forget access, too. The Durand roundhouse can be accessed on two sides from an aisleway, but they have a freight house worth of space to use.
But concentrating on the railway bridge and roundhouse may preclude the industrial area, or yard operations. That's where having your head together about what you want will guide your decisions and compromises.
Good luck!
TWaters, check your PM.
Svein
TWatershttp://rapidshare.com/files/258299463/shape_of_track_plan.pdf.html
Looks like your web link goes to an ad filled web page where someone wants me to fork over money to download a PDF file containing God alone knows what.
Thanks, but no thanks - the combination of ads and possible virus attacks is not too tempting for something that from the description sounds pretty far out.
A source on realistic operation track planning for layouts smaller than the ones discussed here is in Realistic Revenue Operations, Eugene Villaret, Greenberg Publications. However most of the book is about operations rather than track planning.
EDIT: Links removed, due to popular request :)
AralaiPaulus Jas, I trust that your post loses something in the translation. I appreciate your feedback, however perhaps positive suggestions for beginners would be more appreciated.
Paulus Jas, I trust that your post loses something in the translation. I appreciate your feedback, however perhaps positive suggestions for beginners would be more appreciated.
LOL - Paulus can be prettydirect. I guess the Dutch can be every bit as direct as Norwegians sometimes. It takes some doing - people from most other countries find us Norwegians to be an annoying combination of honest and rude at times :-)
Yes, there are quite a few issues with the tracks the way you have laid them. Ulrich (Maddog) has gone through some of those.
Also the drawing program you are using is apparently not being very flexible, and it draws track plans in such a way that everything looks pretty "bulky" - the visual impression you get from the plans is that a lot of wide, and yet surprisingly short spurs are filling up the landscape, so there won't be much space left over for the actual industries etc that is served.
It has been mentioned that it might be smart to have an idea about what kind of railroading appeals to you, so you can design the track plan to support what you want your layout to do. In the same place, you can design a lot of different plans that support different ways of running the model railroad.
As an example, from another thread, here is something I wrote for a poster that was thinking that he wanted a layout where he could have cement covered hoppers - he liked the look of those short, two bay hoppers, to make him consider a few different ways of using those hopper cars on a layout.
You are obviously not making the same layout as him, but read this stuff and think about your vision for your layout - how do you picture your role in running your layout :
- a railfan watching trains pass by your location? - a helicopter pilot flying above the landscape watching a train move below ? - a dispatcher trying to keep traffic moving ? - a conductor figuring out in what order you want to set out and pull cars at an industry ? - a yard switching crew, sorting cars and building train consists ? - something else ?
Here is what I wrote to rcato:
For possible inspiration while doing concept planning (thinking about what style and type of railroading you want to model on your layout) for your railroad: 8x12 foot U-shaped N scale (I know you are in H0 scale) shortline running a local between a small interchange yard and various industries, including a cement plant: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/1063 - very simple cement plant trackage (just an unloading shed over the single track).Here is a web page with some pictures of a modern cement plant tucked into a corner on a H0 scale shelf layout : http://www.zealot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158180&highlight=Cement&page=12 - three tracks for the plant. The Windsor Model Railroad Club has a largish layout (http://www.scratchbuildersguild.com/follow-the-build/layout-builds/70-wmrc-ho-permanent-layout?showall=1) which includes a pretty large (16 foot long) cement plant (http://www.scratchbuildersguild.com/images/clubs/windsor/wmrc_pt1013.jpeg) - shows some buildings and tracks for a larger cement plant model. Here is small (6 foot by 2 foot) British switching layout called Cement Quay, which essentially is an in-plant switching layout - look at the pictures below and note the hidden 42" fiddle tracks on left (which could be replaced by a larger staging shelf for a permanent layout) -overview pics and track plan from micro layout site carendt.com: http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page55a/index.html. More pictures from layout: http://www.nevardmedia5.fotopic.net/show_group.php?id=4544. Might help you think about whether your main modelling desire is: a) Building a large and imposing cement plant (or a harbor dockside scene) and just shuffle cars from staging into the various plant tracks, or within the plant - ie a focus on building and detailing structures, and possibly focus on the industrial process itself (how concrete is produced or ships are loaded/unloaded), or b) Running a local dropping off and picking up a couple of cars at each of a number of industries - ie focusing mainly on the train crew's job in planning the order of pulling and setting out cars, or c) Having a layout that is mainly a yard, where the main goal is to sort inbound cars into blocks and then send them off outbound to various (mostly not modelled/off-layout destinations in staging) on various trains - ie focusing mainly on the yard work of sorting and routing cars), or d) Having a layout where the trains mainly will be moving (perhaps slowly) through the landscape (which may be industrial/harbor like), and where a train occationally will have to take a siding to let another train past, or where a train occationally will stop to drop off or pick up some cars, but the main emphasis is to be able to lean back and admire the train rolling slowly by or through your scenes, while having gates go down and the train sounding its horn for RR crossings, or e) something else entirely Just wanted to throw a handful of ideas at you, to maybe get you thinking about what the main goal of your layout is. Only you will be able to figure out what your main goal with the layout is, but you should try to figure that out before you start drawing up track plans.
For possible inspiration while doing concept planning (thinking about what style and type of railroading you want to model on your layout) for your railroad:
8x12 foot U-shaped N scale (I know you are in H0 scale) shortline running a local between a small interchange yard and various industries, including a cement plant: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/1063 - very simple cement plant trackage (just an unloading shed over the single track).
Here is a web page with some pictures of a modern cement plant tucked into a corner on a H0 scale shelf layout : http://www.zealot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158180&highlight=Cement&page=12 - three tracks for the plant.
The Windsor Model Railroad Club has a largish layout (http://www.scratchbuildersguild.com/follow-the-build/layout-builds/70-wmrc-ho-permanent-layout?showall=1) which includes a pretty large (16 foot long) cement plant (http://www.scratchbuildersguild.com/images/clubs/windsor/wmrc_pt1013.jpeg) - shows some buildings and tracks for a larger cement plant model.
Here is small (6 foot by 2 foot) British switching layout called Cement Quay, which essentially is an in-plant switching layout - look at the pictures below and note the hidden 42" fiddle tracks on left (which could be replaced by a larger staging shelf for a permanent layout) -overview pics and track plan from micro layout site carendt.com: http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page55a/index.html. More pictures from layout: http://www.nevardmedia5.fotopic.net/show_group.php?id=4544.
Might help you think about whether your main modelling desire is:
a) Building a large and imposing cement plant (or a harbor dockside scene) and just shuffle cars from staging into the various plant tracks, or within the plant - ie a focus on building and detailing structures, and possibly focus on the industrial process itself (how concrete is produced or ships are loaded/unloaded), or
b) Running a local dropping off and picking up a couple of cars at each of a number of industries - ie focusing mainly on the train crew's job in planning the order of pulling and setting out cars, or
c) Having a layout that is mainly a yard, where the main goal is to sort inbound cars into blocks and then send them off outbound to various (mostly not modelled/off-layout destinations in staging) on various trains - ie focusing mainly on the yard work of sorting and routing cars), or
d) Having a layout where the trains mainly will be moving (perhaps slowly) through the landscape (which may be industrial/harbor like), and where a train occationally will have to take a siding to let another train past, or where a train occationally will stop to drop off or pick up some cars, but the main emphasis is to be able to lean back and admire the train rolling slowly by or through your scenes, while having gates go down and the train sounding its horn for RR crossings, or
e) something else entirely
Just wanted to throw a handful of ideas at you, to maybe get you thinking about what the main goal of your layout is. Only you will be able to figure out what your main goal with the layout is, but you should try to figure that out before you start drawing up track plans.
Good luck with your design!
RTS also has a feature to form flex track - try to get acquainted with it and you will not be tied to using Atlas Snap-Track curves and straights. I must admit that it is a little tricky though, just take your time to explore the feature...
Wit a little exercise you will be able to come up with plans looking like this:
This is my projected layout - still in the planning stage!
Very helfpul Ulrich! Yes RTS clearly has its limitations...
What scale/gauge is this layout plan? Looks like G. The planner would be better off studying railroads and layout plans and planning instead of wasting time with these track plans. Later get paper, straight edge, compass, pencil, eraser, and then begin doodling.
Mark
Aralai,
don´t let some of the comments you get here discourage you. They may appear to be a little gruff, but are never meant that way. One of the big disadvantages of a forum is, that it is not really a dialogue, just because you have to type up everything. Words are easier said than typed.
A lot of the people in this forum have a background of 30 + years in model rairoading and therefore a lot of experience in how not to do things and maybe a little less experience in how to do things properly. Sharing that experience is not everybody´s strength, though...
OK, let me come back to your plan. From a slightly more experienced MRR´s view, what is "wrong" with it?
Unfortunately, quite a lot. Some of the issues are:
All track is neatly lined up with the sides of the layout - this gives it a toy-like appearance you don´t want to have.
The turnouts are very sharp - go for no. 5 or no 6 turnouts. I assume you are using RTS from Atlas as your planning tool and are still fighting with it. Forget CAD for the moment and use paper and pencil - it will help you better than a "rigid" system like RTS.
Some of the sidings and leads are to short. - the shortest "train" is a locomotive plus at least 1 car, all of your tracks should be that long for a minimum.
I know I will be beaten up from some of the experts here, but IMHO you do not always need to have a story which is basically a theme that you´d like to model. It does help, though, but I feel it makes planning too complicated for the beginner, as you do have to understand quite a bit about prototype rail roading to develop one. Building a layout and just letting trains run is also a good reason...
As a dialogue is somewhat difficult in a forum, here is a piece of advice which will help you a lot. Locate your nearest mrr club and visit that place. You will find people that will help you there and you will be able to see what we try to tell you here in abstract words!
Btw, here is my interpretation of the HOG RR - drawn with RTS:
Enjoy!
Thanks. I appreciate your feeback. TBH most of the issues in regard to length of spurs / staging sidings and distance between tracks is due to the software I am using, or my needing to learn to use it better - just started last week. In reality the switches will allow longer spurs and closer tracks - I know that.
I had a couple of thoughts when I hid the track to the right of St.Redempteur. One was to create more of an illusion of point-to-point and hide the loop, although based on the rest of the layout, I'm not sure that is entirely successful. The other was to use it as a staging track to meet scheduling concerns, although it is not labeled that way. I do agree it could be used well as part of the town.
@doughless - I will be the only operator most of the time, and I had planned remote switches and magnetic decouplers.
dear Aralai,
i was really blunt, i admit; but i meant every word i was saying to you.
You have a small terminal, a junction with a loop and after running around and around for some time, where are your trains going? You can push them backwards on a staging track.(Try to let the stagingtracks face the other direction, under st Redempteur) Behind the hidden switch is less then one foot space. A rather short "train". To call a less then one foot long spur a parc industriel is also asking for a lot of imagination. A lot can be said about the word (Joffre) yard. On a railroad it usualy is the place where trains are being build or cut apart. I do not know if Joffre was just a terminal or that more connections were made. The decline towards Joffre seems a bit short( you do not need the second crossover) and why hiding the second track at St Redempteur? This a nice place for a second station; with space up front and at the back to add some serious urban railroad scenes.
What Stein is trying to tell you is: you should come up with some story first. Let's have a look at his old layout. Railroading in the 50-Ths in a very urban setting. A lot of cars (most 40 and some 50 feet long) still being individualy switched. Short transfercuts are coming in from staging. (how many a day? from witch company's?) Those transfertrains are cut apart in the yard and build into new still shorter trains to a milling complex or other industrial zones. And visa versa of course. His transfertrains are appr. 6-8 cars long; 5 feet long trains, incl. an engine and a caboose. His arrival (or departure) and staging tracks must accomodate those trains. There are still many different industries being served, also bigger ones, with "long" spurs and sometimes with more then one track.
You have to come up with your story. Your trackplan has to be consistent with your story. Then only you can ask if things will work the way they are supposed to do. Believe me, some good old fashioned doodling on paper (use Armstrong's squares or Barrow's domino's) is the best start.
The space you have is far bigger then you think. Due to the oversized spacing it's difficult to get a good impression. I would try to start with a "level" loop, with two facing branches going down. One to Joffre inside the oval and one outside the oval to staging under StR. One track in Joffre could go to the very edge of your shelf, giving your RR a southern connection as well. When Joffre is really up front (on a one foot wide shelf you can have a 6-track yard) you create the space for a bridge that's more straightend out.
It's only my thinking, but you have to design, build and pay it. There are so many questions left, about passengertrains, about trainlength, about the size of your crew, about the era, etc, etc.
Try to read as much as you can, may be you'll find a modelrr you really like and yust build a "copy". Most of us start all over again and again.
Have lots of fun doing so
Aralai Paulus Jas, I trust that your post loses something in the translation. I appreciate your feedback, however perhaps positive suggestions for beginners would be more appreciated. Ex: Staging tracks - what length do you suggest? How do you see them working? Which parts of the new plan do not fit in well with train operations? What is improved in the new plan vs the old? What is specifically not good and why? If you take the time to provide feedback, constructive feedback would be more useful for me. Yes - the scale is HO and each block is one foot. I have added a few room features to help visualize. I am using a program to draw for now so I can be more sure of radius curves and to be able to make changes easily. Track spacing can and will be adjusted. I am currently looking for feedback on the overall layout, operational pros and cons.
Paulus Jas, I trust that your post loses something in the translation. I appreciate your feedback, however perhaps positive suggestions for beginners would be more appreciated. Ex: Staging tracks - what length do you suggest? How do you see them working? Which parts of the new plan do not fit in well with train operations? What is improved in the new plan vs the old? What is specifically not good and why? If you take the time to provide feedback, constructive feedback would be more useful for me.
Yes - the scale is HO and each block is one foot. I have added a few room features to help visualize. I am using a program to draw for now so I can be more sure of radius curves and to be able to make changes easily. Track spacing can and will be adjusted. I am currently looking for feedback on the overall layout, operational pros and cons.
Its tough to post enough information here that would replace the amount of information found in several hobby publications. I'm no expert on this stuff, but I'll try to add something. Much more detail to it than what I can explain.
Staging (if you want it): You want enough length to hold your longest train. For example, if a switcher is operating a town, staging allows another train to run by at the same time, being stored in the hidden tracks until it is required to make its appearance on stage. If you create a schedule of trains, you might have three different trains run by, for instance. #1 a heavy coal drag, #2 the Amtrak special, #3 a mixed freight. You build the trains by hand in the staging area, then begin your operating session and run your timetable. You design the layout with your operating plan in mind, meaning, you have to get close to envisioning how long your longest train will be before you make the first cut for your benchwork. A lot of planning.
I'll ask you a question: In your yard, the crossover that is the farthest south, closest to the door, how are you going to operate that? How is the locomotive or a car going to be switched there?
If you're not going to have remote control switches or uncoupling magnets, you might have to bob under the bridge an awful lot to follow a train from the yard to parc industriel. That would be a pain especially since the aisle is only 24 inches wide.
- Douglas