New Layout - Looking for feedback

[odave]

In addition to what stein posted, two books would be good to read through to assist in your planning journey.  My preferred reading order would be:

Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong

Realistic Model Railroad Operation by Tony Koester

Since you are interested in Quebec City, it would be good to do some research on the railroads that run/ ran in that area.  To see modern trackage, I've found the aerial maps at Bing and Google to be good search tools.  Just zoom in on Quebec City and scroll around the tracks to find interesting scenes.  Even abandoned railroad grades can still be found and traced - some going back to the 1920s and 30s and maybe older.  This can give you some town names to start your research with.

[steinjr]

Aralai

 Great comments! Thanks! I agree that the layout as is would get boring fast. I guess I am having trouble noving my mindset from a loop to a point-to-point layout that actually allows more complicated train operation - which is definitely one of my bigger objectives. From your feedback, the biggest issues seems to be sidings, spurs and crossovers to allow a realistic operation. I will go back to the drawing board today and see what I can come up with. This is one of the fun parts - planning...Any specifics on components that allow for realistic operation? Ex: single line siding, passing track, etc..

Here is my standard answer to the question "what should I model" (copied and pasted from a previous reply - some details may not be applicable to your situation :-)

 

 

steinjr

 FWIW, here is my approach to this.

You need to ask yourself three questions, and the first two questions should not be skipped:

1) Why do I want to build a model railroad ?

 A surprisingly large number of people fail to consider why they want a layout, or just go "because it is cool, duh!" and leave it at that.

 Don't skip this step.

 No one but you can define why you want  a layout and what you expect/hope to get from your layout.  

Think about what you hope to get from your layout, and write it down. 

 For three reasons:

  a) there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to how to design two layouts for two widely different purposes.

 A layout designed to support you playing dispatcher at a CTC will often be quite different from a layout built mainly to give you a place to show off and take pictures of your detailed model trains, or a layout which can run in continuous display with various animated effects to entertain young grandchildren, or a layout built to allow you to do a lot of yard switching,

  Some people like to build, and tear down their layout and start over again pretty much right away after they finish building their railroad. Some people feel that the building part is a necessary evil they have to go through to get to the fun part of running trains, and want to keep it as simple as possible.

b) if you can't explain even to yourself why you want a layout, it may not be the smartest thing to commit to spending quite a bit of money and quite a bit of time on building a layout until you have figured out why you want a layout, and

c) Once in a while when you are working on your model railroad you can do a reality check - are you getting what you wanted from what you are doing? If not, it is probably a good time to change either your goal or your approach :-)

 

2) What would I like to model ?

 Two subphases:

  a) Identify a theme, era and location that inspires you

  b) Find scenes that inspire you 

 Different people like different things. Tastes are different. No one but you can define what you want on your layout.

 But if you start out with era, location and theme, you are well on your way.

 An 1890s narrow gauge logging line in the west is pretty different in character compared to switching in Brooklyn in 1942, which is pretty different to having Budd RDCs carrying passengers to a remote settlement in the arctic north of Canada, which is pretty different from a helper base in West Virginia in the 1950s, which is pretty different from a modern 110 car coal unit trains departing from the Powder River basin in a steady stream of traffic, which is pretty different from a Harry Potter layout, which is pretty different from a Thomas The Tank train layout and so on and so forth.

 Once you have a theme, an era and a place in mind, it is time to go look for "scenes" from that time and place that fits your desired theme.

 Tony Koester came up with a smart layout design concept in an early issue of Model Railroad Planning (an annual from the same people who publish Model Railroader Magazine): the Layout Design Element (LDE).

 An LDE is a small model railroad scene that is based on modelling a smallish part of a real railroad somewhere and sometime. Inspired e.g. by a photo that grabbed your attention or a place you have lived, or visited or read about or whatever.

 By breaking layout design into first designing a small number of scenes you want to model, and then afterwards figuring out how to string your scenes together in the space you have available, the design job gets less overwhelming.

 By "small" I mean something on the order of 3 or fewer LDEs for a H0 scale bedroom sized (10x12 foot) layout, and typically fewer than 10 LDEs for a H0 scale basement size layout, even though you obviously can squeeze in more scenes by making each scene smaller, running shorter trains, having more viewblocks that prevent visual interference between scenes etc.

 To find LDE candidates, you look at pictures - both pictures of your prototype railroad/area/era, and pictures of other layouts that inspire you.

  If you have a location and a theme in mind, it will be easier to figure out what kind of LDEs to look for and where to look.

 Let's work some more on theme and selecting some scenes you would want to include on your layout:

 Some things to think about:
    Location(s):
     - Urban, small town or rural area?
     - Farming communities or industries ?
     - Mountains/Hills? Forests? Riverfront ?
     - mainline or branch line ?
     - RR junction, "on the line" or "end of line" ? 

    Traffic/Operations:
    - Express streamlined "named" passenger trains stopping at the Union Station ?
    - Long through freight trains passing through, possibly dropping off blocks for a local switcher ?
    - Local switching - one car at a time for various small local dealers ?
    - Big local industries needing lots of in plant switching ?
    - Lucius Beebe's "Mixed Train Daily" serving sleeping branch line ?

 Have you had a quick google for sources about "your" railroad to see if you can spot interesting themes or locations ?

 If you start from the wikipedia entry on e.g the L&N, you find links to various historical societies and suchlike:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisville_&_Nashville_Railroad

 One of those lead on the archieve of the L&N historical society: http://www.lnrr.org/archive/

 System maps, junctions, rosters, photos of people, places, structures and junctions.

 

3) How do I fit what I want into the space I have ?

 This is where advice from more experienced layout designers can help you see solutions you maybe hasn't thought of yourself. There are quite a few tricks and tips on fitting in layouts in rooms in various ways.

 But the time to worry about the how to model (and to make the decisions on what comprimises you need to make to make things fit the space) is after finding out why you want a layout and what you want to model.

 Think a bit about the why and what, write it down and go through it a few more times on your own.

 For some more questions you might want to ask yourself about the why and what, have a look at these web pages which contain more questions you might want to ask yourself in order to narrow down some more what you want:

Byron Henderson's checklist for potensial customers: http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsvc/id13.html

Layout Design SIG primer: http://macrodyn.com/ldsig/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Primer

 

 

Good luck with your design!

Smile,
Stein

 

 

[Aralai]

 Great comments! Thanks! I agree that the layout as is would get boring fast. I guess I am having trouble noving my mindset from a loop to a point-to-point layout that actually allows more complicated train operation - which is definitely one of my bigger objectives. From your feedback, the biggest issues seems to be sidings, spurs and crossovers to allow a realistic operation. I will go back to the drawing board today and see what I can come up with. This is one of the fun parts - planning...Any specifics on components that allow for realistic operation? Ex: single line siding, passing track, etc..

[markpierce]

You know what?  It is very difficult to provide comments on a plan unless one is aware  of the planner's objectives and details on the available space.  So, I'm not going to try to comment.

Mark

[steinjr]

Sir Madog

I have seen that steinjr already gave you an answer - he is a wizard when it comes to trackplanning and a fountain of information. You can´t make a mistake learning from him... 

 

 While I of course appreciate that people speaks well about me, I do not want anyone to think that I think of myself as a wizard track planner, let alone a wizard layout designer.

 People like Byron Henderson (and Lance Mindheim and quite a few others) are the true master layout designers who turns out layout plans that both works functionally, and at the same time are pieces of art that also conveys the look and feel of the era and location modeled. 

 I am but an apprentice track planner who can draw up a reasonably *functional* track plan for small scenes and layouts, and can do (and present) research reasonably fast. But I do not have the artistic flair of those guys when it comes to creating truly *great* looking layout and scenery plans.

 But enough about that.

   I totally agree with Ulrich that a Heart of Georgia style layout is (IMO) a pretty good starting point for a layout plan for someone wanting a H0 scale layout with both continuous run, possibilities for creating cool looking scenes where the track passes just once through each scene (instead of first passing a the same spot twice, first going left on the foreground, then going right in the background), and with plenty of switching action.

 That is - if a duckunder or liftout to get into the core operating pit is not a big problem e.g. for medical reasons.

 Industries and scenery can of course be changed to something else, if you want to give the layout a Quebec flavor instead of a Georgia flavor. A backdrop can be mounted along the outside edge of the layout (it is operated from inside the pit), so mountain scenery is not out of the picture.

 In another debate way back, I tried to illustrate how an around-the-operator type layout could add e.g. a mountain scene even on fairly narrow benchwork. Now, where did I put that sketch - ah - found it. 

 

 Just an illustration of the concept of just modeling the side of the object which faces the pit, not a serious fully fledged track plan. And it would be dead easy to add a little access door right into the core of the mountain from the fascia on the outside of the pit, of it is not up against a wall. You can also make the layout low enough that you can operate it from an office chair on wheels, while any viewers can look over the top of the backdrop into your scene to admire your work.

 There are many other possibilities here. You don't have to do an around-the-operator style plan. But it is a good starting point for thinking about your layout as going from somewhere to somewhere, through one or more modeled scenes.

 Anyways - good luck with your design!

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[Anonymous]

 Aralai,

I hope you don´t mind me voicing bluntly my concern over your layout. IMHO, your track plan is just too simple and unrealistic to give you some kind of a satisfaction operating it once you are getting close to finishing it. Building it will be fun and you will learn a lot while doing it. Your layout is doomed to be torn down, because you will get bored after a very short time.

Before you start, do a lot of reading. Kalmbach offers a lot of beginner´s books, that will help you to get the right idea. There are many web sites offering good advice and finally, don´t hesitate to post your questions here - the community will be glad to help you. I have seen that steinjr already gave you an answer - he is a wizard when it comes to trackplanning and a fountain of information. You can´t make a mistake learning from him... 

From your track plan idea I see that you have plenty of room available.

Here is just an idea, what can be done. The HOG is a well designed beginner´s layout, developed by Scott Perry (IIRC). It already combines quite a lot of what you would like to see in your layout.

 

[Aralai]

I hope to do both - train operation and landscape and building. Ideally I am looking for a balance between allowing a continuous loop and train operation switching. I'm not unhappy with the elevated loop, but the low track as you point out does not allow for much in the way of operation. Any ideas on how to improve that? I have space at the right that could be used for sidings or spurs perhaps - I could expand that area to approx 30-40 sq ft - moving the control bench elsewhere. This is the kind of feedback I need. It's easy to change on paper - not so easy once I start.

[steinjr]

Aralai

I am building an HO layout - my first in over 30 years!!! Here is a draft of the layout. It consists of a low track at bench level which is a point to point that is hidden under two mountains in the top left and right corners, and a high track that hugs the sides of the mountains and has a high bridge duckunder. Any feedback or comments are appreciated. It is planned to be 1970's Quebec outside of Quebec City.

 

 

 Figure is hard to grasp, and may lack a lot of sidings and spurs, but if I take it at apparent face value (and if I don't misunderstand your figure and description totally), your only possible operations for this layout seems to be to let one train circle endlessly around and around an elevated loop, while the other train leaves the end of the line, run down a single line to the endpoint, which may or may not have a single ended siding next to the mainline, and then backs up again back down the same line to get back to the place it started from.

  Mmm - guess it says "town" in one corner. So you might have a depot on the mainline where the go-forth-and-back-up-again line can stop to pick up and drop off passengers. 

Is this layout intended as a fully automated display layout where your main focus is on building the landscape and structures, rather than on running trains?

  Stein

 

[Aralai]

Thanks - I was planning to leave the mountains open from underneath for access. It will be tight but I think it will work if needed.

[CPbuff]

The only suggestion at first glance is too ensure you allow access to the inside of the tunnels in the case of a derailment by either being able to remove the mountains from out front or get access from underneath the layout in the corners for both your arms and head.

[Aralai]

I am building an HO layout - my first in over 30 years!!! Here is a draft of the layout. It consists of a low track at bench level which is a point to point that is hidden under two mountains in the top left and right corners, and a high track that hugs the sides of the mountains and has a high bridge duckunder. Any feedback or comments are appreciated. It is planned to be 1970's Quebec outside of Quebec City.