Bikerdad--
Thanks for the clarification between styrofoam and 'beaded' foam. I had always been told that the 'beaded' was styrofoam and the non-beaded was simply called 'extruded' foam. Didn't know that Dow had been using Styrofoam as a corporate name for their blue extruded foam.
Sure is good stuff. Now if I didn't have to travel miles and miles here in SunnyCal to get it, it would sure make it easier. Evidently the extruded foam causes cancer in Spotted Owls or something, out here, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
A couple of comments from my personal experience with extruded foam over 3/8" plywood:
Cookie cutter works fine for 1% and even 2% grades.
Tortoises with a longer wire of .039" diameter and a half inch hole work very well even through two inches of foam.
When trying to cut a foam wedge, mark and cut it as well as you can, then use the UNCUT side on top and the imperfect cut side in a thin bed of caulk on the bottom.
You can use a WS incline under a piece of extruded foam or plywood too.
In short, OP, you need not worry about whether it will work.
Karl
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
CORRECTION: STYROFOAM is a trademarked brand name owned by Dow Chemical for their extruded polystyrene product, a product first brought to market by Dow. The shortcomings of "styrofoam" described by twhite are the shortcomings of expanded polystyrene, aka "bead foam", not of STYROFOAM. The common usage of the term "styrofoam" to describe bead foams doesn't give folks license to malign the real thing.
http://building.dow.com/styrofoam/what.htm
And that, folks, is the crux of the matter. Real Styrofoam can be mighty tough and strong stuff, and even the "light duty" stuff used for wall insulation is much stouter than the bead foams.
If it ain't blue, it ain't STYROFOAM. The pink stuff (Owens Corning's expanded polystyrene product) is just as good as STYROFOAM.
In the interests of full disclosure, I am not, nor have I ever been, an employee, shareholder, consultant, or otherwise associated in any way with Dow, Owens Corning, or any other EPS manufacturer, supplier, distributor, retailer, etc, except as a retail customer. I just get annoyed with very bad info.
Given the pros and cons of foam, I will admit that I'm the same as Mr. Beasely--my layout is built on 2x2" lumber supports, using 2" EXTRUDED foam as the base. I've set my cross-braces about 12" apart for support. For the grades, I've used the WS styrofoam inclines--the Yuba River Sub rises from 0" in the yard to almost 24" at the highest point, and it's all foam. No problems in the past 7 years since I set down the original track. And I run long, HEAVY trains.
But I strongly suggest using the EXTRUDED foam as your base--it cuts and carves better, and is certainly less messy to work with. Styrofoam can be utilized for whatever 'undulating' scenery you choose, but as a base it's not really what I'd want to work with--besides, it's not nearly as strong as extruded because of the 'bubble' makeup. Extruded foam is far more solid, styrofoam is made of tiny foam 'bubbles' that will detach the minute you start carving it (even using a 'hot' knife) and just cause an awful mess. Use the styrofoam for your scenery forms (and have a vacuum cleaner handy) and the extruded foam as your base.
On my Yuba River Sub, I've only used styrofoam as my track base, and then only the WS risers. Any scenery I've done with foam, I've either used the extruded stacked or in most cases, simply used the extruded as 'forms' for mountains, which have been constructed with newspaper forms covered by carpenter's tape, plaster cloth and Sculptamold for strength.
It's worked for me. Extruded foam is lightweight and surprisingly strong once it's braced properly. And the WS styrofoam risers make for extremely accurate grades. If you want proof, you can check my two web-sites at the bottom of my post. It's all built on foam.
But when it comes to a foam base, don't get EXTRUDED confused with Styrofoam. Believe me, it's two different things, entirely.
I'm not a big fan of the foam either. I have used it, and have gone back to good ol' plywood for my new layout. Unless you need the light weight, I can't see any advantage that's worth giving up the strength, the ability to easily use under table switch machines, ability to drill a hold that will solidly hold a tree trunk, ability to tack track in case you might want to change it later ( I even tack road bed), something to tack cable ties to underneath for wiring.
Plus, styrofoam is really trouble --- crumbly and unstable. If you are really attached to the foam idea, use extruded foam -- available in several thicknesses, but expensive.
I do agree, though, that the WS foam risers are NICE (fool proof) for inclines.
mainetrains wrote: My other question is how do you get a smooth elevation transition? Carving? The tried and true tape and paper with whatever on top?
My other question is how do you get a smooth elevation transition? Carving? The tried and true tape and paper with whatever on top?
I used the Woodland Scenics Inclines. While I'm generally not a big fan of their overpriced products, I have to admit that this is a very useful product:
http://www.woodlandscenics.com/items.cfm/Inclines
I love foam as a construction material and layout base. I don't use plywood at all. I've got a lightweight wood frame and my layout base is all 2-inch foam. It's stiff enough to easily span my 16-inch supports without a hint of sagging. (I model HO.) You can't climb on foam, though, so plan accordingly. It will not support much weight, and will either crack or crush if you try it.
I do use mostly Atlas turnouts, but I hide the machines under scenery of various types. More recently, though, I've come to prefer Peco turnouts. The Peco machines mount directly to the underside of the turnout, and can then be slipped into a hole cut in the foam. Both Atlas and Peco are twin-coil machines, not as nice as Tortoises, though.
Welcome aboard, by the way. My LHS (Local Hobby Shop) is Maine Trains in Chelmsford, Massachusetts, and I decided to honor this fine establishment by putting a train shop on my own layout:
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
mainetrains wrote: Getting ready to start a new HO layout and have a couple of questions for those who have used styrofoam. Since my carpentry skills aren't all that great I figure using styrofoam on top of plywood will give me the terrain variations I would like to get. First question is how do you handle turnouts? Seems to me they would all have to be manual or the less than prototypical above the table switch machines.My other question is how do you get a smooth elevation transition? Carving? The tried and true tape and paper with whatever on top?I'm sure I should have more questions but that's it for now.
Getting ready to start a new HO layout and have a couple of questions for those who have used styrofoam. Since my carpentry skills aren't all that great I figure using styrofoam on top of plywood will give me the terrain variations I would like to get. First question is how do you handle turnouts? Seems to me they would all have to be manual or the less than prototypical above the table switch machines.
I'm sure I should have more questions but that's it for now.
I'm getting to start my next layout myself. It was supposed to be a limited test track that could be stored vertically when not in use, but somehow grew to be a 4 x 6 ft display layout and test track.
Having built several layouts ranging from 3.5x5 to 4x8 with either plywood on L girder, plywood on butted girder, and foam in girder, I don't see a lot of advantages for foam compared with cookie cutter plywood. This, despite having already bought the 2" foam and 1/4" plywood underlay for the about-to-start 4x6. I am definitely having 2nd thoughts, and considering returning the foam to exchange for 1/2" plywood (no difference in price in my neck of the woods!).
If portability is needed, then foam is absolutely the way to go. My foam layout was so much easier to handle than my plywood layouts.
I do not see running a jig saw through the plywood and Homasote to cut out the roadbed, followed by plaster over window screen as more difficult than carving foam. In fact, it seems much easier. Both are inherently messy. But to me, the difference is in how the scenery is shaped. With foam, you are subtracting by carving. With screen and plaster (or other plaster shell techniques), you are adding until you get the desired scenic effect. It is easier for me to visualize what must be done to get the desired result by adding a little than to visualize what something will look like when I subtract some material.
In L girder and cookie cutter, precise carpentry is not required - good thing for me, I feel real good if my carpentry leaves gaps of 1/8" or less. The only time precision is required is setting up the risers and cleats for smooth grades or level track. I handle that by clamping the riser/cleat combo in place and adjusting until things are just right. Then when I have the adjustments right, I drill and screw while the clamp holds the adjustment.
As you have surmised, getting smooth grades with foam isn't quite as easy. Carving a smooth grades without dips or humps, and level crossways is beyond my skill level. One common way out is to use Woodland Scenics risers. It's still difficult to get as smooth a vertical transition as you get automatically with bent plywood. Another less common method is cookie cutter with flat foam using risers, just like with plywood. I don't know how well foam cookie cutter works after you get more than a 1" foam/ 1/4" plywood sandwich. BTW, risers don't have to be wood verticals.
Others, I'm sure, will detail how to make switch machines work with the foam thickness. I used manual throws, so the thickness wasn't a big deal.
Again, IMHO, the benefits of foam only outweigh its disadvantages over more traditional construction when a layout has to be moved, stored, or carried. If my 4x6 is going to be moved to display it, or actually be a test track, I should use foam. Otherwise, L girder and cookie cutter plywood is pretty simple for even a non-carpenter like me.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I am building my layout on one inch thick foam glued to Luan plywood. I am using Tortoise machines mounted under the Luan. You have to make a hole through the foam and the Luan/plywood. I start by making the hole in the foam with a Tipi Hot wire cutter. Then I just drill the hole in the Luan from the top with a standard drill bit of the correct size. I replace the .025 diameter actuating wire that comes with the Tortoise with a heavier one, around .032 in diameter, and longer, so that it will reach the throw bar of the turnout.
You can also use Caboose Industries ground throws at or near the edge of the layout by making a grove in the foam from the throw bar to the ground throw. Then connect the two with a wire that is run through a tube of some sort. Cover the tube and grove with caulking and scenic as usual. You should mount the ground throw on a small piece of Luan inset in the foam so the top of the wood is level with the foam. The wood piece can be glued to the foam with two part epoxy.
For transitions or grades, I use stacked one-inch or half-inch foam. When the glue is really dry, I roughly carve the grade with a knife that has a long blade. Keep checking your work with a straightedge of some kind. A ruler or yardstick works well. Second shaping is with a Sure Form tool. keep checking with the straight edge. Last, I use a whole piece of 60 grit sand paper on a foot long sanding block (made from a 1x4) This last sanding should take out the high spots. You just have to take your time.
If you wanted, you could also buy the Woodland Scenics foam grade packs, then you wouldn't have to do all that carving. However, the carving will allow you to learn how to carve the foam better and faster and will be a skill that you will always use for foam, and it will save you money.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I've used stryofoam, quite successfully, too. I cut an offset joint to help align it. As far as turnouts, I used RTS 8.0 (free download from atlasrr.com), and printed out templates of turnouts. I then glue them to the styrofoam with diluted white glue. I then trace out the track to join them, then connect them with flex-trak.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/