Need some ideas...

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

Here is the room I am working with.

All the stuff there is going somewhere else.

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

Many, many issues with this.  8 ft x12 feet is too large to reach across, so you will have to make a hole in the middle for access.  Assuming 30-36' radius on the ends for the big engines that gives you only 6 ft of tangent on each side.  Not really conducive to a HUGE yard and a HUGE steam service facility.

My suggestion is NOT to do Bailey yard, but do Cheyenne instead.  Do a smaller yard and a larger engine facility.

I am going to have to do some sweat talking to get them to let me do that tho.

Speaking as a parent, SWEET talking would probably work better than SWEAT talking.  8-)

Dave H.

Ya there is some more of my great spelling skills...

Ill post some pictures of the room I am working with soon.

Thanks for all of the comments so far

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Sweat talking might help if it was mowing the yard, doing the laundry, and helping with other chores!

[dehusman]

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

Many, many issues with this.  8 ft x12 feet is too large to reach across, so you will have to make a hole in the middle for access.  Assuming 30-36' radius on the ends for the big engines that gives you only 6 ft of tangent on each side.  Not really conducive to a HUGE yard and a HUGE steam service facility.

My suggestion is NOT to do Bailey yard, but do Cheyenne instead.  Do a smaller yard and a larger engine facility.

I am going to have to do some sweat talking to get them to let me do that tho.

Speaking as a parent, SWEET talking would probably work better than SWEAT talking.  8-)

Dave H.

[R. T. POTEET]

Kyle, I examined your room-layout graphic for about an hour yesterday before I had to go attend to other business and I looked in on it again this AM. The best I can come up with is that your access requirements for those cabinets leaves you little option beyond a donut-shaped layout. There are a few places where you could probably fit in 48 inch wide benchwork but most of your platform is going to be restricted to 24 inches. In HO-Scale you could - and that is a pretty big COULD - do a twice-around but only with considerable cramming; whether you like N-Scale or not it would fit better into your available space. I surmise that, since you did not include it in your layout-space drawing, that the area in front of that fish tank is in no-no land. If that is true then it is too bad because that space would be perfect for a double-sided peninsula and a balloon.

Should you elect to go with a Challenger/Big Boy motif then you need to keep in mind that turning those locomotives is going to require an 18 inch turntable - AND THAT'S A LOT OF TURNTABLE!!!

PICKY! PICKY! PICKY! You have a couple of other problems.

Firstly, if you want Onion Specific 2-6-6-2s, 2-8-4s, and 2-10-4s there is only one place to get them: they must be ordered direct from the obscure nation of Vaporiana. These locomotives are made from a material called Vaporium; anything rendered from this material is absolutely invisible . . . . . which, in this circumstance, is what you want because these specified locomotives were - at least in the case of the Onion Specific - absolutely invisible because they absolutely did not exist in the first place; UP did not have a large fleet of 2-8-8-2s but by the late '40s they would have been invisible also because, at this stage of the game, they were being cast into doors for DeSotos- that's an old Chrysler Motors brand from the era in question..

Which brings us to Bailey(?) Yard and the Challengers and Big Boys.

Now, I know that I am going to get kicked in the teeth for the following. It is highly unlikely that Bailey(?) Yard ever saw a Challenger or a Big Boy except in passing - to museums in the case of the Big Boys or to razor blade factories in the case of the Challengers. These locomotives with their high speed lugging capabilites were a much too valuable asset to waste in an environment that was still being operated as ton-miles - UP did not really become a train-miles railroad until dieselization/turbinization. These Challengers and Big Boys seldom - if ever - ventured east of Cheyenne. I doubt that Bailey(?) Yard had a turntable and engine house that was big enough to service these brutes; there was most likely a wye such as existed at Cheyenne which would have sufficed for turning if required. Southern Nebraska was the province of the triple ts and MKs both of which survived into the mid-'50s; when Diesels bumped the 9000 Class (4-12-2) machines out of the Southern Wyoming deserts they finished their useful days speeding freights across the Nebraska and Kansas prairies.

Kyle, I do wish you luck on designing a layout to fit into your designated space. 

[steinjr]

 Kyle --

 In your first sketch, you showed that the area where you want to build your layout lays off another room - where you showed a fish tank (see my sketch below).

 I am just guestimating the size of the fish tank in your sketch to be 15x32 inches, based on a rough estimate of the dimensions of a 70 litre (20 gallon) fish tank we have in our living room.

 Could you make some measurements and post a drawing and possibly a picture or two of the area below the layout area ?

 Would it e.g. be possible to let a small peninsula for a roundhouse extend off the lowermost area of the designated layout area into the  rest of the lowermost room ?

 

Stein

 

[steinjr]

In HO scale, you're going to want a Minimum of 30" radius to run those large locomotives. An 18 inch turntable (130') and roundhouse on a UP scale is easily going to eat half your space. Figuring about a 9 inch approach to the roundhouse from the turntable, you're looking at roughly a 48" diamater space, if, the roundhouse does not exceed about 1/4 circle. That will leave a few inches to Squeeze a couple tracks past it. Go half circle, on the roundhouse you're looking at about 90" diameter or there abouts. I typically, in planning figure half the turntable bridge length for the roundhouse approach to get the maximum number of tracks in. You could space it closer together at the cost of the number of tracks (without getting into fancy trackwork).

 I have tried to draw in a Walthers 3 stall "modern" (ie post 1920) roundhouse with extended (125' ) stalls, an 18" (ie 130') turntable, 9 inches between turntable pit and roundhouse (on 10 degree spacings) and 18" of straight track on the approach to the turntable. 

 This is a rough illustration of how much space a H0 3 stall roundhouse would take in Kyle's layout space - placement may very well not be optimal within available space: 

 

 How would you guys lay out an engine terminal in this space ?

 Link to  Xtrkcad file showing his available layout space , if anyone wants to try their hand at drawing in some stuff for him (right click and "save as" to save file to your own computer):

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[rolleiman]

In HO scale, you're going to want a Minimum of 30" radius to run those large locomotives. An 18 inch turntable (130') and roundhouse on a UP scale is easily going to eat half your space. Figuring about a 9 inch approach to the roundhouse from the turntable, you're looking at roughly a 48" diamater space, if, the roundhouse does not exceed about 1/4 circle. That will leave a few inches to Squeeze a couple tracks past it. Go half circle, on the roundhouse you're looking at about 90" diameter or there abouts. I typically, in planning figure half the turntable bridge length for the roundhouse approach to get the maximum number of tracks in. You could space it closer together at the cost of the number of tracks (without getting into fancy trackwork).

The engine facility on my next plan takes a space of about 48x132 inches (4x11 feet) for a 105' turntable, semi-circle roundhouse, and facilities (coal, sand, water, etc).. As drawn, I have 2 inches center to center on the tracks at the roundhouse doors.

I'm not trying to discourage you from building what you want, just trying to set in some reality for you..  If you can find a way to build around the walls (doesn't have to attach) and still have your access, you could do a lot more than with the space you've negotiated for yourself.

How about some photos of the actual space showing where everything is.. ?? ...  

[steinjr]

 

 Okay, trying to summarize what we have so far:

 You want to build a H0 scale layout. Main focus of your layout should be Union Pacific Bailey Yard in North Platte, NE in the late 1940s/early 1950s, with trains pulled by big steam arriving or departing, and big steam being serviced. 

 Available space for layout is a rectangular area 13' x 8' 6" in a 16' x 10' 6" room, given that you need to leave 2' for a walkway/access to cabinets on the top of the room and 3 feet for an access aisle on the left of the room. 

 Rightmost short edge of layout area is up against a wall, as it the rightmost 4' of both the upper and lower long edges - other edges have access from both sides. Access to room is the 12' on the leftmost end of the lower edge in the figure.

 I have tried to look up availability of big steam engines in H0 scale on walthers.com to get a rough idea of engine size, price and availability.

 Looks to me like a the least expensive H0 scale 4-8-8-4 Big Boys that are listed at Walthers are Broadway Limitied Import (BLI) engines - at about $450 per engine.

 The least expensive H0 scale 4-6-6-4 Challengers are from MTH, at about $700 per engine. Looks like there aren't all that many in stock - most of these say "sold out" or "back order".

 This doesn't mean that you cannot get a better deal elsewhere - but H0 scale 4-6-6-4 and 4-8-8-4s are seems likely to cost you on the order of $400+ per engine.

 Do you already own some of these engines ? Do you have a budget that will allow you to buy several such engines for a large engine terminal ?

 Stein

 

 

[steinjr]

steinjr-

Yes, we still have to be able to get into the cabnets in the back so we need to leave at least 2ft, we would also need to leave 2-3ft on the left side so you could get to them.

The table would be freestanding I CANT hang it from the wall.

There are no windows the layout is going to be in a finished basement.

I was planning on liveing in the house until I was 21 and im 16 now so ill have it 5 years.  The layout will stay at my parents house until I finish college.

I have looked into N scale and it just does not please me I just think it is to small.

I like the engineering style layout better.

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

 Hmm - two good books for inspiration for big yard/engine terminal would be

"Model Railroader's Guide to ..."

Freight Yards: http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12248.html

Locomotive Servicing Terminals:  http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12228.html  

 Well worth the price to get and read.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

 

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

steinjr-

Yes, we still have to be able to get into the cabnets in the back so we need to leave at least 2ft, we would also need to leave 2-3ft on the left side so you could get to them.

The table would be freestanding I CANT hang it from the wall.

There are no windows the layout is going to be in a finished basement.

I was planning on liveing in the house until I was 21 and im 16 now so ill have it 5 years.  The layout will stay at my parents house until I finish college.

I have looked into N scale and it just does not please me I just think it is to small.

I like the engineering style layout better.

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

P.S. I have been trying to get my parents to let me have the room above the garage and if I can get that then I will have somewhere between 30ftx15ft  If I could get that I could put all my wants into it.  I am going to have to do some sweat talking to get them to let me do that tho.

[steinjr]

Here is the room that I am going to put my layout into.

The brown rectangle is where the layout is going to go.

I might not see the whole room in your drawing. This what I seem to see:

 - what you have available is a corner of larger space
 - entry to your area is a 12' wide opening at the bottom
 - basic area depth is 10' 6" from opening to front cabinets
 - basic area width is 16'for the first 8' 6", 12' for the last 2'

 You do not say anything about need to access those cabinets. Do people need to get to stuff that are in those cabinets without having to crawl on the floor under a layout to get there ?  If they need to access it, how much space do you need in front of cabinets to open doors and get stuff ?

 Does the area need to be shared with anything else, or is it empty space, apart from the cabinets ? 

 The width of the fish tank (front to rear) must be subtracted from the 12' width of the opening into the area. How wide is it ? 

Any limitations on fastening stuff to walls ? Should the entire layout be freestanding - ie stand on legs on the floor or could it hang on the walls on the right and left end of the room ? 

 Any windows in this area ? If so how big and where ?   

 This is your first layout, right ? Got anyone to help you build or do you expect to be doing everything alone ? 

 You are a teenager. Most young adults move out from their parents home sometime between age 18 and age 25 or so, and most move into tiny apartments compared with their childhood home.

 How long do you expect to live in your current home - do you expect to move out within 2 years ? 5 years ? 10 years ? 

 Do you expect to just abandon your layout when you move out ? Or bring a smallish part of it with you to a new home - an apartment of your own, student dorm or whatever ? 

 

 

 Some of the thing that I do want to have on the layout is a steam service area that is able to hold large loco's like 4-6-6-4, 4-8-8-4, 2-8-8-2, 2-6-6-2, 2-8-4 2-10-4, etc. 

I am going to be modeling that UP line,  I am think of modeling the Baily yard steam service area in North platte nebraska during the 1940's 

I would like to have at least one main line that I can run long(ish) trains on. 

 Okay. An engine terminal can easily be fitted into your room in any relevant scale. Just have a look e.g. at engine terminal layout in the May 2008 Model Railroader.

 But large steam, longish trains and mainline run puts some serious constraints on what you can do. 

 Large steam would want fairly generous curves. 

 In H0 scale that would probably be 28-30" radius curves or so.
 In N scale that would probably be about 15" radius curves or so.

 What would you call a longish train ? 20 40' cars ?

 Ìn H0 scale that would be about 110" of freight cars (5.5" per car) - a tad over 9 feet. 
 In N scale that work out to about 60" - about 5 feet. 

 My basic recommendation if your main desire is for longish mainline freight trains would be to seriously consider going N scale.

 

 Would you essensially like to model a single location and watch multiple trains pass through this location (ie a railfan style layout) with the trains disappearing off to the east and west to "somewhere else" (ie into staging), or would you like to walk along with a single train passing through several locations, pulling into sidings to wait for other trains etc (ie an engineer style layout) ? 

  I am sure other people will have more questions for you. The purpose of the questions is not to torment you, but to help give you ideas about what you must have and what would be nice to have.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[gandydancer19]

So basically, what you have to work with is a 10x12 foot room. I would recommend building something around the outside like the Hogg RR bench work. Maybe even that layout. See http://www.hogrr.com/ However, I don't think that the space you have will accommodate all of the things that you want to do, at least in HO scale. For a space this size, I don't think you will be able to run that large motive power that you like, unless you are modeling in N scale.

Also, if this is your first layout, I think your plans for a large layout are a little over the top. You should start with something small. The reason? It is hard to get everything right the first time you try something new. My advice is to build smaller, then work your way up.

Sorry if this sounds so negative.

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

Here is the room that I am going to put my layout into.

The brown rectangle is where the layout is going to go.

Some of the thing that I do want to have on the layout is a steam service area that is able to hold large loco's like 4-6-6-4, 4-8-8-4, 2-8-8-2, 2-6-6-2, 2-8-4 2-10-4, etc. 

I am going to be modeling that UP line,  I am think of modeling the Baily yard steam service area in North platte nebraska during the 1940's 

I would like to have at least one main line that I can run long(ish) trains on. 

This is about all that I want.  If you could give me some tips and layout ideas let me know.

Thanks

Kyle