HEdward... If I remember correctly from my research.. I have seen pictures and stories of mills in the New Hampshire area circa. 1900 where they ran on steam fueled by burning saw dust, bark, and the floating debris in the ponds. Any excess might be sent back to the camps to fuel their fires and engines up the line. I think wood was the prevailing fuel in this area because of its abundance.
The switchbacks were an idea credited to steinjr. I really like the idea too.. Gets me the elevation I want in a smaller space.
Mike
I appreciate the advise. A trip to the library is indeed in the very near future. Everyone has provided me with very usefull info, I think, and I've taken to heart everything said... I have a new track plan using a lot of the ideas given here. Maybe a few tweaks.. Here is the link to my photobucket..
Yep. You are going to have to do some research. As you are finding out, even though some folks have some answers, there are some that are still going to require research in BOOKS. A good book on logging will sometimes get you more information because along with the pictures, there is usually a story that goes along with them that gives you a more complete picture. (I saw you post about publications not needed, but look what is happening here.) Folks may comment about the track arrangement not being right etc., but there is not enough information on why it's not right. Trying to explain all of that would be like writting a book here, and that isn't practical.
I still think your best bet is startting at the library. Not a school library, but a city library. You would be surprised at the information they have.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Thanks guys for all the info on helping me understand ops better with the logging RR. The buildings I have out by my camp are going to be the old recycled box car type and the would unloaded right off the rail. But how was this done? Did the use the crane car to take "rail car shanties" off track? If so, were the building taken off the truck and the trucks moved aside? or were buildings, trucks and all, lifted off and just "chucked" on the ground to keep from rolling?
I'm planning on redoing most of my track plan to incorporate what I've learned here the past few days. I'll keep you posted for more track plan poking.
My opinions for fixing the plan as you now have it.
1- The incoming track from staging mainline should come into a longer passing track that will hold a complete train. The far right hand town track could be connected into the mainline track to staging and moved to be parallel with the track just to the left of it. This would help with switching operations in the town. 2- Sneak in another turntable lead so the mainline locos won't have to go through the mill area to use it. 3- Put the lumber yard between the tracks of the mill and the town. 4- You do need to move one of the tracks, or bring the mill pond out to a track so that you can dump logs into the pond. 5- You could put a passenger and freight station on the curve of the new passing track. Either inside or outside, whatever will fit. 6- Yes, it may be an advantage to connect the two tracks.
OK getting to the basics of a sawmill.... Your incoming log trains need access to the log pond to dump the logs. Then the locos need to take on water and return to the woods with the empty cars. If you are using steam and geared engines, they would be pointed up hill so the water would cover the boiler sheet at the cab end while on the grades, and they would not be turned. What if two trains were at the mill at the same time? You need to be able to move one around the other after it dumps its logs, or a passing siding just before the mill area for the second train to wait. The output of the mill is cut lumber. It usually gets shipped out, most of it anyway. You need a track that can load the lumber from the mill into boxcars or on flatcars, then taken to a siding to await a mainline train. Also, some logging roads had their cars on the up-hill end of the engines on the majority of the grades, to prevent runaways.
Walthers has a new book out called "A Model Railroaders guide to Logging Railroads" by Matt Coleman. It is less than $20 and should be a good choice to start with. Also, check your local library for a book called "Pino Grande" and another called "This Was Logging" by Andrews. Both are filled with photos and information. They are west coast logging books, but logging is logging, and most of the techniques and principals are the same.
Edit: By the way, I noticed that you have some buildings out by your logging spurs. Not really correct. Most logging operations were built in such a way as to be moved easily. So all buildings would be narrow and on log cars. The buildings would be off loaded onto a temporary site next to the tracks. The main passing siding that is in your logging area would be the ideal place for the main camp. The buildings would line the side of the tracks. Boards would be laid between the tracks to be used as sidewalks. Donkey engines would be taken out to the spurs where they would be used to power the drag lines and lifts to load the cars. Once an area was logged off, the tracks were either extended into new territory, or taken up and relocated to new territory. So everything was temporary and should look that way when modeled. The track may have been ballasted up to and including the passing track, but not beyond it into the woods. It would just have been laid on the ground. If you can use code 55 track past the logging camp into the woods, it would look better.
[Crocodile Dundee Accent]Now atts not a saw mill. Now atts a Saw Mill[/Crocodile Dundee Accent]
Red Horse wrote:I like it but keep in mind I'm new at this myself.I live in NH so I think it's a great idea, if I can be of any help in NH let me know!I'll try and do some reasearch at a local library for you if you can tell me what it is you need to know.Great drawing by the way.Jess Red Horse.
I like it but keep in mind I'm new at this myself.
I live in NH so I think it's a great idea, if I can be of any help in NH let me know!
I'll try and do some reasearch at a local library for you if you can tell me what it is you need to know.
Great drawing by the way.
Jess Red Horse.
Hi Jesse --
MPRR wants to build a logging railroad based on New Hampshire.
The resource place for logging railroads in New Hampshire seems to be the Upper Pemigawasset Historical Society in Lincoln, NH - web page http://www.logginginlincoln.com/.
There is a sort of track plan for the W.D Veasey lumber company mill at this URL: http://www.logginginlincoln.com/Veasey Gove Gallery/W.D. Veasey Lumber Company, West Thornton, NH/
They give a email for contacts: http://www.logginginlincoln.com/emailus.html
The museum will be opening in mid-June, according to this web page:
http://www.lincoln.lib.nh.us/history.htm
I believe I have already given MPRR those links. But if he needs someone to go over there to do research at the Historical society archieves, then Lincoln, NH that is about 55 miles NW of Center Ossipee, NH, estimating driving time (by mapquest.com) of about 1 hour 20 minutes each way.
Up to MPRR if he wants to request research assistance from you, of course - this is just background information for both of you.
If you end up researching logging in New Hampshire, I hope you post a summary of what you learn to the prototype forum here.
Smile, Stein
Jess,
I know that lumber as a major industry was played out in and around the 1880's, and the lumber center moved westward to Wisconsin and Minnesota,
Now I know there were some smaller hardwood operations, so you might look for an example of a prototype that was large enough to rate rail use.
Now I could be way off here. Like I said, all my research is on western lumber operations, and only heard about eastern operations in passing. But here in PA, at least near me, lumber was not a rail product after about the late 30's early 40's. And then it was small time.
MPRR wrote:I like the plan you showed... Except I'm having problems incorperating onto my benchwork... Maybe I'm having tunnel vision, and can't see the big picture..I just can't seem to get my line from the logging camps to mill the way it should be.. Which ways the spurs should face? Where to locate log dump? Etc... I just can't find that much on the subject. (without spending more money on books) Mike
I like the plan you showed... Except I'm having problems incorperating onto my benchwork... Maybe I'm having tunnel vision, and can't see the big picture..
I just can't seem to get my line from the logging camps to mill the way it should be.. Which ways the spurs should face? Where to locate log dump? Etc... I just can't find that much on the subject. (without spending more money on books)
Here is one possible way of placing a sawmill like in that plan I found. No idea if it is a prototypical track placement - I know next to nothing about logging railroads and sawmills.
But it is seems reasonably functional in model railroad terms - you can dump logs in the river from the double ended siding, and there is a couple of tracks below the mine - one for boxcars full of planks to be picked up (or empty boxcars set out to fill with planks), and one for extra cars - logging or boxcars.
Would cost you one logging camp to fit in a fairly large mill like that. I haven't tried to draw in the town on the right peninsula or any log camp details on the left peninsula.
Btw - Chip (SpaceMouse) knows a lot more than me about logging, I am sure. If something I suggest and something Chip suggests is at odds with each other, he is more likely than me to be right
Okay, this is my understanding of a Western logging operation.
There is a saw mill.
The saw mill supports one or more logging camps. This is where the lumber jacks, loco jockeys and support crews live.
The logging camp supports one or more log loading areas.
In my mind there are two types of lumber layouts. One is the type that models operations, the other is what I call Pop Art Lumber.
Here's one of the two. Scroll down for a tour.
Badger Creek
I found a rather nice track plan at this web page:
http://www.layoutdesigns.com/categories/theme/mountains/
The one labelled "Big Foot Lumber" by Stuart Edmundson: http://www.layoutdesigns.com/wp-content/plan0013.jpg
Have a look - it has a rather nice mill and town plan.
Well, you are definatly right that I don't know much about logging operations.. I've been struggling quite a bit trying to figure it out.. And I'm having trouble finding info on the subject... Unless I go buy some books.. Which probably in the very near future.
I do like whats going on until I hit the town/mill area. Thats where I'm struggling. Spacemouse, If you have any other ideas other then what I threw together please help. I'm absolutly will to start a new on my right side penninsula.
I'm having difficulty commenting on your layout because I get the impression you don't understand logging operations. I could be wrong. Granted the stuff I've read about is West Coast logging and from what I understand, East Coast logging died out early. There are still small logging operations around here in PA, but they've been truck-fed for quite some time.
Anyway, I'm not convinced by the plan, and frankly I don't know where to start.
MPRR wrote: dehusman, I'm ot following you on the topic about the yard tracks and staging. Where do you suggest yard tracks? For what industry?
You have switched your industry and have 6 cars that go to the outside world. Where are you going to put them? A train comes out of staging with 7 cars for your layout. Where are you going to put them?
Yard tracks are for EVERY industry. A yard is the place you sort cars. You have some cars that will go to the mills, some cars that will go to the industries along the front edge, some cars that will go up the hills to the lumber camps. You need a place to sort them out if its only 2 tracks. Plus you will need a place to put overflow log bunks, etc. Unless you are going to run the EXACT same train every time you go up the mountain.
I haven't completed the staging track arrangement yet. I think the train coming out of staging would come into town and drop its cars off on one of the leads through town.
About the log dump.. Are you suggesting a train of log cars would come down line towards mill. Cut off towards pond and and drop logs off a trestle.. Then as the mill needed logs to cut it would pull them up from the pond.
You have shown the feed to the mill running along track A, so you wouldn't dump the logs there, they would destroy the feed trestle.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
MPRR wrote:What is unusual about it?? Is it all the switchbacks? Those are going up 2.5% from town into logging line. That way i can get the elevation and get staging tracks under logging on left side. Other than that, is it the town thats unusual?? I'm not the best at track design so any feedback would be great. Mike
What is unusual about it?? Is it all the switchbacks? Those are going up 2.5% from town into logging line. That way i can get the elevation and get staging tracks under logging on left side. Other than that, is it the town thats unusual?? I'm not the best at track design so any feedback would be great.
Yeah, probably the switch backs. I didn't realize that was a grade change. (makes more sense now) It's a little hard to tell what's going on in the upper left hand corner. (what tracks connecting to what)The more I look at it, the more I like it. It's definitely original. I've been kicking around the idea of an On30 logging layout for a future project myself.There's a ton of info out there about logging and mining narrow gauge if you Google On30 or HOn3.
dehusman, I'm ot following you on the topic about the yard tracks and staging. Where do you suggest yard tracks? For what industry? I haven't completed the staging track arrangement yet. I think the train coming out of staging would come into town and drop its cars off on one of the leads through town.
About the log dump.. Are you suggesting a train of log cars would come down line towards mill. Cut off towards pond and and drop logs off a trestle.. Then as the mill needed logs to cut it would pull them up from the pond. Once cut and processed the 2x4's etc.. would be loaded onto flats on the spur in front of the mill.. The next spur over to B would be for loading bark, sawdust, other waste... Or would it be for unloading goods and supplies for the mill... Maybe use that same track for both processes. Then from B spur, cars would be sent to interchange track behind engine house waiting to go staging... Is this where you are speaking of having a yard?
A train coming out of staging has no place to put is cars and there is no track to put the cars waiting to go back out to staging. You need a couple yard tracks.
I don't see a log dump, I would put a spur on the other side of the pond to dump the logs and then have the line near the mill for cut lumber loading. For example move the lumber yard switch to the left a foot and put a left hand switch in its place with a line crossing the lead to A and then put the log dump along the "flat' end of the pond.
Normally a lumber yard is a reatail establishment that sells lumber to the public. Why would you have a rail served lumber yard 50 yards from a lumber mill? i would make the spur to A for loading lumber on flats and in boxcars and the the spur to B to loading spindles or bark or shingles, etc.
This is my updated track plan. The logging line and lumber property would be privately owned. The town tracks would be New Hampshire RR.. With the interchange lead located behind engine house. Should I connect the end of mill lead to first track in front of lumber yard? That way the engine can uncouple log cars in front of mill and continue on to lumber yard lead and back out onto turntable.? The lead out of town that ends along right edge could be a passenger station, or my wife suggested a dairy of some sort.... Any ideas??? What do you all think??